TRon

I like Sam as a man and we need a leader with his stature at the club BUT...a couple of things worry me. Firstly, his insistence on playing so many like-minded midfielders which I have discussed elsewhere. Another thing which grates is his insistence on playing players where they aren't suited (Smith, N'Zogbia now Enrique is available). Also, we seem to be falling between two stools with the passing game and direct football. We don't have a CF which will alllow us to play Bolton style, so we seem to have abandoned that belatedly. But the midfield we are picking doesn't allow us to play a passing game so it's looking a bit confused at the minute. I don't buy the theory that we are still gelling, I think it's clearly a case of unbalanced line ups to play the way we are wanting.

Aye, which puts the defenders under pressure no matter who they are. I said last season that we needed forward players and more creativity to be a better team and I stand by that now. I also said last season that even with better defenders we would still concede goals if we do not have the ability to dictate games and if we do not have the creativity and strikers to offer a serious threat to the opposition. A lot of people didn't agree and probably still don't, but we have better defenders now and we are still looking dodgy. It's a team game and yes, we needed better defenders but we must have the ability to hurt the opposition, for them to know you can hurt them because that will be a factor in how they set out their own game plan. If you do not have that it will give them more freedom to have a go at us and that puts your defenders under pressure. No matter who those defenders are you will leak goals and look dodgy under this kind of pressure. We need to dictate the game more and take that pressure off the back four. We need better players in midfield and up front, we also need better tactics to get the most from those players. We needed that last season and we still need it now. We sold Dyer and Solano which were fair enough decisions, but others have pointed out that we now lack pace (Dyer) and invention (Solano) in those areas. Joey Barton isn't going to give us those attributes whatever his qualities. N'Zogbia moved to the left wing will help, but Milner slows the game down on the right. That's where we might struggle to stretch teams until January when we can put that right. And for god's sake stop playing Geremi and Butt in the same team.

Big Sam was absolutely right to get in the defenders that he did, this is something that has needed addressing for years now, I'm pretty sure that the investments will prove their worth given time. The point about stats though is close to home. Somethimes when I look at a side put out by Allardyce I wonder if he's putting someone in there because the numbers add up nicely. Geremi, Butt and Smith in theory must look impossible to play against for a creative player, but As Dr Spectrum put it so well, three defensive midfielders ended up chasing Elano's shadow all afternoon. City were slick and sharp, passing quickly and running at pace. We were plodding in comparison.

Nah, sometimes he has games where he literally gets everything wrong. in this case glass isn't half full, it's empty. it's all Martins fault then.. What? I'm just saying the truth. Some games, if he doesn't score he does fuck all else. Well he did create N'Zogbia's goal against West Ham but then that was probably just a lucky run, touch and cross.

If he's not ready then the squad building has been incomplete during the summer. Not only are we losing a left back, we are losing a left winger in Zog who is now playing at left back which becomes a double whammy.

Nah, sometimes he has games where he literally gets everything wrong. in this case glass isn't half full, it's empty. it's all Martins fault then..

i managed to get great goal and poor control in half way up the page,he did show fantastic control for his goal,that doesn't mean his control is largely iffy Well there's always the glass is half full view, I agree.

He has his faults, but I shudder to think what we would have looked like without him today. Only he and Zog offer any pace and penetration to a pedestrian looking team. The goal was sublime by the way. No doubt his critics will ignore that and point to his first touch being awful (so ironic considering how he took that goal) but there you are. Saved us from getting thumped 3-0 in any case.

We didn't play too badly in the first half, but City's pace and quick passing made us look like dinosaurs by the end. Sven won every battle with Allardyce today. Better, cuter football, and players used far more effectively in their positions. Milner was too slow, and N'Zogbia was played at LB which robbed us of the width needed to get much from Viduka. A triumph for Sven in an important battle. Another game for us where we got passed to death which isn't encouraging. Winning ugly is ok by me but losing ugly and watching other teams dance waltzes round us like Arsenal and City sricks in the craw.

Harsh, but rings true I'm afraid. Milner's got a good right foot, but his lack of pace allowed City to regroup too easily when he was in a psition to hit them on the break. He also has a bit of Ameobi's lack of ambition and self-belief and I'm starting to think he's playing at a level above his ability.

He did fairly poorly at Newcastle though in comparison. Didn't exactly pull up any trees at Celtic either afterwards. Mourinho on the other hand will undoubtedly go on to succeed again. Did anyone ever have that conviction about Dalglish when he left Newcastle?

Another way of looking at this would be "Owen's injured - thank God we've got someone as good as Oba who can come into the team!" In the circumstances he's not the worst deputy is he?

I won't be devastated if Viduka isn't fit although I rate him. With Ameobi out of contention, we could go with Smith and Martins up front, and they looked quite good against West Ham. They won't look as good if one of them is playing wide though, which is likely.

Champions League football on a regular basis.

Not sure about that - for the same reason he didn't get it last time round. England wouldn't get far playing football Bolton-style which is all we've got to go on at this moment. As for us, it depends what you mean by success. I am fairly confident he can get us into the top 6 because we are getting it right at the back for which Allardyce takes full credit. Plus we have enough quality throughout the side to get the necessary wins. Wheter we can kick on and get beyond the top six we'll have to wait and see. For that we will probably need more pace up front and on the right flank. I think we will make progress and that's not to be sniffed at considering our starting position.

There's nothing wrong with the post, just like there was nothing wrong with Parky's thread after the Derby match. It might well be that all the niggling faults will be rectified, but generally these posts are well thought out and put forward with some sense of reason, right or wrong. Beats the hell out of "****'s a c*nt, get rid of the little waster"

But that's my point. I never in a milion years expected us to outplay Arsenal with silky skill. I did expect us to send out a team which would stop them playing so fluently. Since this has always been Allardyce's ethos, it's the one thing I thought we would do well. And please, before anyone starts on about me getting after the manager, it's far too early days for anyone in their right mind to do that. I haven't seen the game, but personally speaking if I was aiming to frustrate the opposition, I wouldn't play two forwards in midfield. If ever there was a game where it was justifiable to play both Butt and Geremi, this was the one. In the event neither played.

Big mouth managers are fine if they can back up their words a la Mourinho. I am just finding it hard to wrap my head around the idea that this was a side sent out to win this match.

What was the thinking behind tonight's line up? The official match thread has turned into a Martins debate, but I really want to reason out why we put out the team we did tonight. I was surprised to see Faye alongside Smith in midfield. I was surprised to see Ameobi alongside Martins up front. I was surprised we played what seemed to be a 4-4-2 formation when we least needed to play it. Basically I'm wondering, why didn't we do a "Derby" and kick the Gooner kids into submission?

So it ranges from shite to "fine". You couldn't quite bring yourself to say good, could you. "It's often shite, and it's sometimes..........alright....ish." Your sole purpose in this thread seems to be to remind everybody how shite Martins is, despite the fact you couldn't provide a better alternative to start when Owen's not fit (which is quite a lot of the time tbf). I don't know why Martins is coming in for so much stick on a night we could have lost by eight. We were outplayed and unless Martins was alone playing in a 0-0-1 formation, I don't see why he is getting so much stick. It's not my fault that he's third choice striker at the club, is it? If he carries on missing open goals, I'd start Smith ahead of him up front though, but at present I'm assuming Smith is starting in midfield. What do you mean IF he carries on missing open goals? He's shite according to you, so why give him a chance to "carry on" to miss more open goals?

No we wouldn't, we've got Alan Smith with his 3 goals in his last 90 appearances. We'll be fine. Quick question: Martins or Smith up front? Are you being serious? I say Owen. He could always have tapped one in with his crutch tonight. WTF was Sam thinking of starting Martins tonight instead??!!

So it ranges from shite to "fine". You couldn't quite bring yourself to say good, could you. "It's often shite, and it's sometimes..........alright....ish." Your sole purpose in this thread seems to be to remind everybody how shite Martins is, despite the fact you couldn't provide a better alternative to start when Owen's not fit (which is quite a lot of the time tbf). I don't know why Martins is coming in for so much stick on a night we could have lost by eight. We were outplayed and unless Martins was alone playing in a 0-0-1 formation, I don't see why he is getting so much stick.

On ther game itself tonight, once I saw the team selection I didn't fancy our chances much. We fell between two stools with that line up. Instead of dropping either/or Butt and Geremi we dropped both in the one match we needed genuine midfielders with physical presence. Then Ameobi is picked up front while Smith flounders in midfield next to Faye in a "let's see if this works..." experiment.

Excellent point! When Owen came back and was fluffing chances it was all about Owen needing a run of games, but martins is expected to just do the business right away. We have to accept that he is a different type of player yes and can be careless at times but he is still a very dangerous attacking player and when his confidence is high and he is playing regularly he is great. Sam needs to put his arm round him as he will probably be pretty low after tonight we need to keep his spirits up. God knows tissue paper man ain't coming to the rescue anytime soon. Busy faffing around with more surgical instruments in Munich. Point of order: I've never seen Martins string together a run of performances I would refer to as "great". I love the way Owen gets ripped to fucking bits for being an excellent player that's injury prone, whilst Martins is lauded for being decidedly average and fit. You are confusing two different scenarios tbh. Owen is the world class finisher, but he doesn't play much. Martins is erratic but if Owen isn't fit, who would you rather play up front from our current squad?

I'm surprised more people haven't picked up on this. The long ball game isn't my cup of tea but it can be effective to a limit. We just haven't got the players for it and we looked much better yesterday when we passed it around, unlike the Derby debacle.