Shak

I meant ready to challenge to be a first-choice player btw. Hopefully he'll start getting in and around the first team squad and getting a few first team appearances, likely as a sub, towards the end of this coming season, but anything more is extremely unlikely you would have to think.

Yeah but the massive difference is that Martins can offer us something of significance on the pitch. Can Milner? Duff and Smith have no baggage, model pros by all accounts. But they need to be sold on, because they're rubbish (Milner is better than both of them, admittedly). The problem with keeping him as back-up for this year and looking to move him next summer is that his price tag invariably figures to drop if he's sitting on the bench most of the year. So, barring he actually comes in and does well, now is the time to sell him on, while we can hopefully get a nice fee for him. As Baggio says, our depth isn't all that bad really, it's just a lack of real quality that is the problem moreso.

Not 18 until December so I don't think we can put off buying a midfielder by any means. Hopefully he'll be ready to challenge for the first team in a couple of years, only seen him in a couple of sub appearances but he's looked like one with potential anyway. Hopefully he'll be around the fringes of the first team this year, would be nice to have a homegrown prospect coming through.

Difference I see there is that Milner seems to have some value in terms of a sale, something that can't be said about any of our other midfielders. Other than N'Zogbia, and I'd sell Milner long before Zoggy. If we're going with 4-3-3, as I would hope we will, we've got Barton, Geremi, Butt and N'Zogbia that will be here and looking to fight for a place. I think it's a given that we'll be looking to bring in a creative midfielder, hence the Modric bid. If we could do that and then spend whatever we sell Milner for on a long-term DM then that would be for the best, surely? Butt/ New Guy to compete at DM with Zoggy, Barton, Geremi and hopefully a really quality CM competing for 2 spots either side of him. Agreed, but in reality I'd accept anything over £6m once things get going. It's nothing like selling Martins to be fair though Geej. Martins has some attributes that, if harnessed correctly, could make him a very good player ultimately. Milner, solid as he may be, doesn't have any stand out thing that he really excels at, and it's impossible to imagine that he ever will. Shooting, perhaps, but that's about it.

How shit is the Cardiff keeper btw?

How many would you say represent good value? Aye, and before you answer please take into consideration: £250,000 – N’Zogbia to Newcastle £500,000 – Chimbonda to Wigan £12.24m – Ronaldo to Man United That's ridiculous. You've basically taken 3 of the best value for money transfers of recent times and are using them as a point of reference. The best three? Rubbish. There are plenty of bargains around. £3m – Adebayor to Arsenal £5m – Lescott to Everton Free – Aurélio to Liverpool £8m – Anelka to Bolton £4m – Muamba to Brum £4.7m – Petrov to City £3.5m - Santa Cruz to Blackburn How much did Blackburn pay for Bentley? Spurs have pissed a load of money away… I know, a bit rich coming from a Newcastle fan, but we at least acknowledge our bad business. http://www.uk.pg.com/images/bold_logo.gif They've made some signings that maybe haven't worked out, but nobody gets it right every time. It's a very tough business trying to find value for money every single time, nobody manages it. Of the players above you have to fancy that if they sold them all on they'd get close to their money back, so it's hardly that bad a showing at all is it? They'd lose money on all but Berbatov, Steed, Woodgate (depending on fitness), and possibly Bale (too early to tell). Hutton, Zokora, Kaboul, Boateng, and Bent they've paid well over the odds for. I'd wager that the profit on Berbatov would offset the small losses they'd admittedly make on some of the others. But, overall, it's a solid return all things considered. Anyway, this defending Spurs business I'm engaging in is hurting my heart, so I'll cease from here on.

Was hardly a sitter tbh, he was off balance from all the brilliant jinking to get by the keeper. Still, he'll be disappointed obviously. Good game so far.

You'd not have anyone from Chelsea then? Think that Drogba fella looks like a handful, personally.

We've enough defenders anyway.

How many would you say represent good value? Aye, and before you answer please take into consideration: £250,000 – N’Zogbia to Newcastle £500,000 – Chimbonda to Wigan £12.24m – Ronaldo to Man United That's ridiculous. You've basically taken 3 of the best value for money transfers of recent times and are using them as a point of reference. The best three? Rubbish. There are plenty of bargains around. £3m – Adebayor to Arsenal £5m – Lescott to Everton Free – Aurélio to Liverpool £8m – Anelka to Bolton £4m – Muamba to Brum £4.7m – Petrov to City £3.5m - Santa Cruz to Blackburn How much did Blackburn pay for Bentley? Spurs have pissed a load of money away… I know, a bit rich coming from a Newcastle fan, but we at least acknowledge our bad business. http://www.uk.pg.com/images/bold_logo.gif They've made some signings that maybe haven't worked out, but nobody gets it right every time. It's a very tough business trying to find value for money every single time, nobody manages it. Of the players above you have to fancy that if they sold them all on they'd get close to their money back, so it's hardly that bad a showing at all is it?

How many would you say represent good value? Aye, and before you answer please take into consideration: £250,000 – N’Zogbia to Newcastle £500,000 – Chimbonda to Wigan £12.24m – Ronaldo to Man United That's ridiculous. You've basically taken 3 of the best value for money transfers of recent times and are using them as a point of reference. Off the list. Berbatove, Malbranque and Woodgate are fantastic value for money. Bale and Hutton are too soon to tell, both look promising prospects though. Boateng I've not seen much of, but he's only just turned 21 and is hardly already to be considered a flop now is he? Zakora and Bent they overpaid for, though Bent is still a very good player IMO. Kaboul is the only out and out poor signing as far as I can see. Hardly a disaster now is it?

Depends on whether we're going with 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 though, innit? I'm just hoping we're going with 4-3-3 tbh.

Yeah but that said I reckon Milner is one of our most saleable players, and getting in £5-7m for a player that (now this is only my opinion Jon and I hope we can still be friends after I say it ) will never be more than a passable squad man may not exactly be bad business by any means. Geremi and Butt have little or no sale value, and nobody will be mad enough to take Barton off our hands you would think. So that's 3 guys I can't see going anywhere. If N'Zogbia really does want to stay then I'm happy to see Milner move on to be fair, that is if Keegan wants to keep his 4-3-3 system of course. Get someone really quality in to play Geremi's role, and a young DM to compete with and ultimately succeed Nicky Butt. Then Barton and N'Zogbia fight it out for the other spot in midfield with the loser, Geremi and Butt/Young DM providing the cover. Hopefully Kazenga Lua-Lua can start getting a sniff around the first team in the next couple of years too.

I can see the point about squad depth, and I've thought for a while that his best position might be through the middle, so Geremi's role in the 4-3-3 might suit him. But honestly, he's just another grafter in a midfield group that's desperately screaming out for someone with a bit of class on the ball. N'Zogbia is the only midfielder we have that is capable of producing something special, and that's with his dribbling rather than anything he can do picking out a pass. We desperately need a playmaker, and if selling Milner helps us get one in then I'm all for it. That said, ideally we'd keep him and get ourselves a playmaker as well.

Tooj always has to throw in one of his "Some of our fans really do over-rate N'Zogbia. Not me, though, I know the score." comments every time the subject of N'Zogbia comes up. I think it makes him feel wise or something.

I'd imagine it's mostly due to frustration that we're not even getting the chance to see whether he's got it or not. We have hopeless has-beens like Damien Duff on the wing while the most exciting young prospect we've had in yonks rarely gets a look-in. Exaggeration of his potential is inevitable surely?

Be thrilled if we keep him, I'd pretty much given up a few months ago tbh.

He's lost that nippyness that made him so effective in his early 20's, injuries have a way of gradually taking it out of you, and without that he's never going to be anything more than an average player. What made him so good at his peak was that he was always likely to beat two or three players almost at once, he really was a top class dribbler who could skin guys all day long. I don't think it was really pace that was his greatest asset, rather his sharpness if you will. That ability to change direction in an instant without slowing down. Aside from that, there wasn't a whole lot in his game that made him special. Poor crosser of the ball, not much of a goal threat, average passing. But when you have the ability to go by defenders like they simply aren't there then you don't have to be that great at these things, as you're taking opposition defenders completely out of the game and making much more space for your teammates with that. Injuries have done him in though and now what we're left with is a winger who can't beat people at all anymore, can't cross the ball, doesn't chip in with any goals and doesn't really offer anything of value whatsoever, frankly. I think he'll end up staying, but I'll be shocked beyond belief if he ever offers us anything positive as a Newcastle player. Hopefully Keane takes him to the Mickems to join the revolution.

Those who can't...

I know that Chelsea's wage bill vs turnover was an absolute joke a couple of years ago, not sure what it's like now but you would imagine it's still fairly obscene. Our problem has been that we pay well over the odds for players that really aren't that much better than average. There's no problem with paying massive wages for guys like Owen who you would expect could make it back for the club both with his commercial value and performances on the pitch. It's paying massive wages to players like Emre, Duff and people like that that causes a problem. I would bet that that is what we're trying to put a stop to.

was he an idiot when he went 7 games unbeaten, He hadn't made them at the time so obviously not, he wasn't an idiot when we got bummed by the decent teams either before you start. keegan knows what he is doing, we went through all this in 1992, then, 1st, 3rd, 6th, 2nd 2nd. Means nowt though, does it? I reckon he'll do well here but he'll be bucking the trend of managers going back to old clubs if he does. Walter Smith's doing alright like. Yeah but it's the SPL tbh.

So you think it's a good idea for our manager to be declaring that we see ourselves as a mid-table club at best for the foreseeable future? Again, he may be right with his comments (I don't think he is, btw) but even if he is what good does it do to come out with this?

"To wear is to do." Black one looks quite nice tbf, the white one is a bit naff though, the socks don't help it at all.

How fierce does the guy on the right of the picture look?

tbh harper has always been a valuble asset. if at any time harper's presence because a hinderance to us, like shola's is, and he turned down the chance to leave, do you really think we'd be defending him then? we've always known harper was a good keeper, and been perfectly happy for him to stay, even though he doesn't get a game, because of this, and if we sold him we'd need to get a replacement, who might cost more, and be worse than him. we'll need to replace shola, whether he goes or not, because he's s****. Both have spent loads of time purely as back-up. The odd run of games here and there but never established as first choice. Harper may have cracked it this time however. They've both just stuck it out but Harper is praised for his loyalty but lets just see how much s*** Shola gets for, possibly, turning down a move. Has Harper ever been the subject of actual bids we've accepted though or just papertalk bids? We'll never be sure but I'm guessing a few bids have come in for him at one stage or another over the past 6 seasons or so. Difference surely being that we've always been happy to have a guy like Harper knocking around in case of injury? I doubt he's on anything like excessive wages, and a reliable sub keeper is always handy to have around. Shola on the other hand is clearly surplus to requirements. He's not seen as good enough, even in a back-up role, and we seem to really want rid of him, and have a chance to get great money for him while we're at it. I'm not gonna crucify Shola for turning it down, don't see why he should have to live in a place that he doesn't like just to appease us, but I don't think his situation is that similiar to Harper's tbh.