Lotus

In all seriousness, as we were on about this in the pub last night, if you look down the league tables, more and more clubs are now being deducted points when all they are trying to do is continue to exist. The situation completely shows how the elitisim and damage done since the beginning of the premiership to football in this country. These clubs are trying to hang onto their very existence, a situation caused by the powers that be, and then the same situation forces a deduction of points on them. Madness. In 10 years time, unless money filters down [which isn't going to happen], any amount of teams will not exist anymore. I also think it is the responsibility of the PFA and their chief Gordon Taylor to get his arse in gear and start to look at ways of persuading the higher earning players to accept more discipline in their earnings for the greater good of all their fellow PFA members which would help a great deal. I don't know the ins and outs of the Southampton situation, but fundamentally they've not kept their house in order, that's why they're struggling to continue to exist. Do you not think it's fair that if they take the piss, f*** up their finances and live beyond their means they should be punished for it? but the bigger picture is that it is simply becoming near impossible for these clubs to continue. They need assistance, not points docked. Why is it near impossible? The vast majority of clubs seem to manage. Of course, more money should be filtered down through the football league generally but why should a club be given assistance if they've f***ed up? I think more and more clubs will struggle.

In all seriousness, as we were on about this in the pub last night, if you look down the league tables, more and more clubs are now being deducted points when all they are trying to do is continue to exist. The situation completely shows how the elitisim and damage done since the beginning of the premiership to football in this country. These clubs are trying to hang onto their very existence, a situation caused by the powers that be, and then the same situation forces a deduction of points on them. Madness. In 10 years time, unless money filters down [which isn't going to happen], any amount of teams will not exist anymore. I also think it is the responsibility of the PFA and their chief Gordon Taylor to get his arse in gear and start to look at ways of persuading the higher earning players to accept more discipline in their earnings for the greater good of all their fellow PFA members which would help a great deal. I agree with everything you say there but the last paragraph is leaning dangerously towards socialism yep, I know that. I just see it as the only way dozens of clubs will survive unfortunately. Well, i'm fully with you with the sentiment.

In all seriousness, as we were on about this in the pub last night, if you look down the league tables, more and more clubs are now being deducted points when all they are trying to do is continue to exist. The situation completely shows how the elitisim and damage done since the beginning of the premiership to football in this country. These clubs are trying to hang onto their very existence, a situation caused by the powers that be, and then the same situation forces a deduction of points on them. Madness. In 10 years time, unless money filters down [which isn't going to happen], any amount of teams will not exist anymore. I also think it is the responsibility of the PFA and their chief Gordon Taylor to get his arse in gear and start to look at ways of persuading the higher earning players to accept more discipline in their earnings for the greater good of all their fellow PFA members which would help a great deal. I agree with everything you say there but the last paragraph is leaning dangerously towards socialism

If Lennon plays and Enrique doesn't were going to have a problem. I wonder if they're considering Bassong at LB (assuming Taylor and Colo are fit) simply because we have no one else. Wouldn't want to take Bassong out of the centre but who else can stop Lennon streaming in behind (luckily he can't cross but he'll still cause trouble because the closest CB will have to go to him when he waltzs past the LB). Moody.

When Martins got the ball yesterday it was rarely to feet so he had to take a moment to control with his back to goal, not his forte, the Chelsea players would get tight to him to stop him turning and not once that i can remember did our midfield show for him to lay the ball off to, they just stood there and waited for nothing. Owen rarely moved his arse to get close to him either. We were on a hiding to nothing yesterday. Chelsea can control the middle so we can't pass through it and can deal with the long balls upto our midgets. Our only option was the wings imo. Still, Stoke won't be as good.

you are joking aren't you yeah, i was. that wasnt the situation at all. Good. I'm pleased you don't recognise a situation whereby a talented player is unhappy at the club. Lets not bother to find out why, nor why he thinks Wigan is a step up for him. Marvellous. Welcome back to the old days, when we were run like a corner shop and had zero ambition. N'Zogbia is at Wigan because his performances at Newcastle did not warrant a move to the places he wanted to go. He wore out his welcome at the club and now he's using Wigan as his "stepping stone". and [on topic] Ryan Taylor is a superior replacement then ? Raylor isn't much use at all and Nolan looked f**king useless, never went near our box or theirs. Lets not forget though that they were bought by a manager who you supported and considered a benefit to the club so you'll have to just grin and bear it if he buys shite like that. As far as Zoggy goes, he wanted out when the Halls & Shepherds owned the club so that makes no f**king difference. The only bit you're right about is that he's way better than Raylor or Nolan. Shame the man you backed, Kinnear, doesn't agree.

Also code for saying Kinnear hasn't got a f**king clue from Sunday to Friday.

His problem is that he's the only outlet in midfield, he 's the only guy the others can give it to to try and create something, everyone else in midf isn't up to it. He's not Cronaldo or Messi so he can't do all that on his own. I like him, he's a decent player and, as others have said, with more quality in the team he's be more effective. As it is, the opposition just have to double up on him everytime he gets the ball and he'll either run into trouble cause he's got no one to pass it forwarsd and square to or wait for him to try and cross it to one of our strikers hiding behind their CB by the back stick.

I'd be happy to see him take his coaching badges and work for Newcastle in that capacity.

I read quite a few posters though who were convinced he's never even reach that level once. I thought he had it in him to be a good LB, and so far, happily for all of us, he's showing that he can. Consistency, as you said, is all important. I think for a young'un, he's doing very well. What i said before and what i'll say again is this: he's the kind of player that goes to other 'smaller clubs' plays regularly, gets his game together and then signs for clubs like Newcastle for bigger fees and then you get people on here complaining that we never find them and develop them ourselves. Then Ricky turns up and i could see he was EXACTLY (i certainlu wasn't the only one) that type of player, just needed time and patience to develop his game. I think in 2 years time he'll be a cracking LB, right now he's a very promising one.

............................Harper.......................... Saylor......Colo..................Bass..........Ricky .......Raylor............Smith............Ron......... Martins............................................Jonas ............................Duke............................. Oba and Jonas can cut inside and have a pop at goal. Viduka might occasionally hold the ball up which would be handy. The problem we'll have is substitutions. Viduka, Geremi nor Smith will last 90 mins imo.

ST was expecting Collocini to go and intercept the runner. What with Collocini being about ten yards nearer to Gardner when he picked up the ball in acres of space. ST had ran over to mark the man without the ball, thereby freeing Collocini to deal with the player with possession of the white round thing, who was running unchallenged into our box. That’s how it should be done. Taylor was playing right back, not sweeper. His job isn’t to run across his central defenders. By the time ST had worked out Collocini had just invented a new, and radical way of defending as a team, there was nothing he could do. Collocini failed to react to the threat. He just stood there like a statue waiting for somebody else to deal with the developing threat. Like his habit of turning his back on shots, it displays a lack of courage. No, Collocini was marking his man, as soon as the guy crossed the ball to Gardner Collocini moved towards Gardner but it was way too late, noboday could have covered that distance. If Gardner had taken a touch first i think Collocini would have closed him down. Taylor did nothing wrong imo, didn't have the time to run across to Gardner and it really wasn't anywhere near the area he was defending. Entirely a f**k up by the midfield. You knocking Collocini for THAT one is ridiculous.

Damned if they do... :omg: Well, could you really give a f**k what HE thinks? Wise's opinion would at least me make me read it all the way the way through tbh.

He's pretty talkative for a pie & chips saleman.

the quote is : "any individual or group resourceful enough to raise the £100 million plus that would be needed today to take over the club is likely also to be intelligent and resourceful enough to make a better fist of it than the current board" - ozzie mandiarse 24th Oct 2006 So, the obvious answer is that they haven't ? Which, using mandiarse's remarkable gift of hindsight, would appear to be the case, wouldn't you agree ? Unless of course, he is still happy that the new regime is moving the club towards matching the european qualifications, capacity gates and therefore the long term revenue [at least] of the board he was slating, which is down to the appointment of Dennis Wise and other factors which come together as part of the running of the club ? Cheers. I'd been unaware that quote was now the one under discussion. But actually yes, I have a major problem with your interpretation. You've taken the last part of that sentence "... than the current board" and tried to apply it as a criticism of the entire tenure of the board. When that quote was posted, Late October 2006, we were just in the middle of a 9 game winless streak, Roeder'd been found out as having completely lucked up that 7th place finish and there was still a lot of dissatisfaction floating around about the board, spending and Souness. When Ozzie said that I think it's very, very clear he was talking about what they'd done recently and not what they'd done as a whole. You are quite wrong. There was a lot of support for what Souness was doing, with mandiarse one of his main supporters. I think his statement is very clear, as clear as is possible, meaning that he thought pretty much anybody would come in and do better. Then the disagreement is the length of time to which he was speaking. You interpret it as "Do better than they've done since 1992", the entire rest of the world interprets it as "Do better since the sacking of SBR." so the first 12 years of when they ran the club is being conveniently ignored here ? I will remind you, that we finished 7th only 2 years ago, a position that was achieved only twice in over 30 years prior to the Halls and Shepherd taking over the club. And a position, which, under the present setup and owner, we will never match. In my opinion. So what is your opinion of the setup of the club, including the appointment of Dennis Wise of which is incorporated, and the progress towards at least equalling the league positions, european qualifications, capacity crowds and therefore the revenue and interest in the club which their predecessors achieved ? Where would the money have come from if we were still in the Ownership of the Halls? How would we have funded our team rebuilding? Would you have expected the Halls to put the money up from their own pockets? If not, whose? Genuinely curious btw.

I kind of get the feeling that JFK was allowed to run the last transfer window on his own, that he made a plea to Ashley that it should be the Managers job and he'll show Ashley how he can handle it. The fact that we made a bid for Nolan on the 29/30th and that other players told JFK that RTaylor was available increases my suspicions.

Do you want them to be like you so you can identify with them a bit more? You might be a touchy tart so i'll qualify that by saying that's a reasonable wish, nowt wrong with it, just wondering if it's your reason. Identify with them? As having played for the same local teams or in the same leagues, going to the same schools or knowing family or liking the fact that you knew some of them personally and would like to see them do well? Or their kids? Nowt wrong with that is there? Stop twitching! Nowt wrong at all, i think it stands for plenty.

Pretty much. And over the last 25 years you'd say most of the best English players have actualy come from this region as well. I'd have said the North West over the last 10 years tbh. Go into the time spectrum I've used. How many would you say are better than Robson, Shearer, Waddle, Gazza, Pedro? All from the one area btw. Even though Robson is from a bit further afield. I know, i know, i know but i think Scholes, Neville, Beckam (yoof academy), Giggs, Rooney, Gerrard, Fowler, Owen, Mcmanaman, Carragher and probably a few more even it up in sheer weight of numbers. And i didn't even count Luke Chadwick.

Pretty much. And over the last 25 years you'd say most of the best English players have actualy come from this region as well. I'd have said the North West over the last 10 years tbh.

Do you want them to be like you so you can identify with them a bit more? You might be a touchy tart so i'll qualify that by saying that's a reasonable wish, nowt wrong with it, just wondering if it's your reason.

I've no intention of trying to put people right in this thread Dave. Suffice to say, we will see how long it drags on, or how many people look back on Ashleys lack of ambition and fail to still grasp the basic point that if you want to succeed you have to spend big bucks. Ashleys current direction will never achieve anything near the league positions we have seen since 1992, so if thats what people want its up to them. Just like when they all said they wanted rid of Shepherd [for anybody] they won't be so keen on the reality when it happens though. So much so, that those european qualifications will be nothing other than a fond memory. now that you've looked at the finances a bit closer do you think we were nearing a point at which we probably wouldn't have got anyone to loan us anymore money to carry on the spending ? I've only looked at the last page of this thread, as I have said earlier, I know what it will be about. Lots of hysterical people forecastig doomsday and believing the desperate stance of a desperate board/owner trying to deflect criticism of their lack of ambition and the fact that they are letting the transfer window go by with us in real danger of going back to where the Halls and Shepherd found us. UV has pointed out the difference between choosing ambition and not choosing ambition. Its extremely sad that after everything that has happened in the last 18 months people still don't get the difference. Carry on supporting a club not even aiming to go anywhere, despite having one of the biggest fanbases in the country. Please tell us where we will get the finance to move forward again when we are relegated and gates and revenue fall by half at least. I don't give a s***. I care about the club, and will support the club no matter where it is next year and the year after, and the year after that. Well, so will I. Just like the last time. But 30,000 others won't, just like last time. Some, I suspect, post on this board and can't admit that they weren't interested in the club before and were in fact attracted back to the club by owners that they now slate. Such is life. you can answer (in the other thread preferably) what we will do to get finance when revenue dives massively ? Because I'm sure most of the others will avoid this and insist that soopa mike is still on the right road or something. You said previously that the Owner of NUFC shouldn't have to put their hand into their own pocket to support the club, when did you change your mind?

I'd be more curious to know which clubs run at a loss WITH debt.

oh dear, I remember people saying that people like me were talking nonsense when we said Ashley was turning the club into a 2nd rate selling club again, and heading for relegation through selling players and looking for cheap replacements. When exactly do you think we will match the european qualifications that we have seen for the last 15 years, under Ashleys strategy ? stretch the question further and ask if fred would have matched the european qualifications we've seen for the last 15years ? would he have just spent the banks money to try and emulate it ? Lets go back to the appointment of Allardyce, and the point made by HTT, when he said that it was thought to be a good appointment at the time of someone waiting for a big job, coupled with the fact that his track record suggested he could build a pretty good side with little money. Whether he could make the top 4 is arguable, and we won't now know, but it suggested that the Halls and Shepherd were aware of this need, in the short term. I'm pretty sure that their ultimate ambitions would have remained as high as they always were, which are much higher than Ashleys, and I'm also pretty sure that at the current moment in time, they wouldn't be sitting back and watching the team heading for relegation and try to reverse it. Mind, the amount of u-turns by people who urged them to keep spending, and backed Souness in his spending spree, but now say how wrong it was, is quite amazing. i'd reckon ashleys ambition was to do aswell as possible without running up massive debt.........your way sees everton of having a lack of ambition, a lack that sees them regularly finish well clear off ambitious freds outfit. Everton are just the team doing the best for the moment of a whole load of clubs that don't have the big ambition that they should. Thats all, nothing more and nothing less. If you are saying you would swap their last decade for ours, then I wouldn't agree, and if you are saying what they have done in the past decade is good enough for you, then thats up to you. It;s this mistaken idea that you and others have that everybody else has done things better than us, and the grass is always greener. despite results to the contrary which is pretty daft like. You thought the grass was greener when the Halls and Shepherd ran the club and now they have gone, we are sinking like a stone. Has Shay Given gone yet ? All we need is Ashleys mouthpiece to come out again and say its "good business", and I'm sure a lot of gullible people will swallow it whole. i'd swap their last 5 years for ours. as for sinking like a stone i'll claim you are LYING if you think it's only since fred left. I'm not talking about the last 5 years, I'm talking about the entire tenure of the chairman you are slating, not part of it. Do you still think having an owner who runs the club down is no different to having an owner(s) who have ambition and have shown it ? Amazing. We were careful with our spending when Bobby 1st took over, then we started spending more after a coulpe of seasons iirc. Well, if you are saying you expect Mike Ashley to show ambition in a year or two, then feel free. I'll be surprised though. But he may also have to, when we are down a league, crowds are 20,000 and the penny drops with most of the daft posters who still back him, as well as himself. Do you expect an owner of Newcastle Utd to have to support the club out of his own money? If so, when did you change your mind? Do you think that a club such as Newcastle Utd should be self sufficient? If so, how do you think that could be achieved? do you think it is possible to be successful without taking risks, or to rephrase it, how much scope in football is there for teams to be successful and make profits ? Or do you sit back and accept mediocrity and possibly small profits ?? Which would you prefer, attempting to be successful or not ? I think you have to take calculated risks. Tbh, i'm not sure how profitable an EPL club is so i don't know the answer. Other peolpe seem to suggest you don't buy an EPL club to make a lot of money. I would prefer attampting to be successful but i wouldn't want to confuse ability with ambition. Now answer my questions. exactly. I also don't think anybody buys a football club to make money, unless they see it as an asset stripping exercise in the short term and sell as quickly as possible, because absolute self sufficiency and success is something not too many clubs have managed to do. As you said, you've got to take risks, and you have to be prepared to take losses, or you are in the wrong game. Why do people persist in thinking its the same as running a High Street business, when anything outside the top 3 or 4 is "failure". That pretty much answers what you ask as best as possible. All good. I'm curious for view on something though. We seem to be well in the red and the Owner is propping us up. It's reasonable to assume that we'll have to stay within our budget for the short term until the we're closer to being self sufficient. But how do you think we could operate more within our means?

oh dear, I remember people saying that people like me were talking nonsense when we said Ashley was turning the club into a 2nd rate selling club again, and heading for relegation through selling players and looking for cheap replacements. When exactly do you think we will match the european qualifications that we have seen for the last 15 years, under Ashleys strategy ? stretch the question further and ask if fred would have matched the european qualifications we've seen for the last 15years ? would he have just spent the banks money to try and emulate it ? Lets go back to the appointment of Allardyce, and the point made by HTT, when he said that it was thought to be a good appointment at the time of someone waiting for a big job, coupled with the fact that his track record suggested he could build a pretty good side with little money. Whether he could make the top 4 is arguable, and we won't now know, but it suggested that the Halls and Shepherd were aware of this need, in the short term. I'm pretty sure that their ultimate ambitions would have remained as high as they always were, which are much higher than Ashleys, and I'm also pretty sure that at the current moment in time, they wouldn't be sitting back and watching the team heading for relegation and try to reverse it. Mind, the amount of u-turns by people who urged them to keep spending, and backed Souness in his spending spree, but now say how wrong it was, is quite amazing. i'd reckon ashleys ambition was to do aswell as possible without running up massive debt.........your way sees everton of having a lack of ambition, a lack that sees them regularly finish well clear off ambitious freds outfit. Everton are just the team doing the best for the moment of a whole load of clubs that don't have the big ambition that they should. Thats all, nothing more and nothing less. If you are saying you would swap their last decade for ours, then I wouldn't agree, and if you are saying what they have done in the past decade is good enough for you, then thats up to you. It;s this mistaken idea that you and others have that everybody else has done things better than us, and the grass is always greener. despite results to the contrary which is pretty daft like. You thought the grass was greener when the Halls and Shepherd ran the club and now they have gone, we are sinking like a stone. Has Shay Given gone yet ? All we need is Ashleys mouthpiece to come out again and say its "good business", and I'm sure a lot of gullible people will swallow it whole. i'd swap their last 5 years for ours. as for sinking like a stone i'll claim you are LYING if you think it's only since fred left. I'm not talking about the last 5 years, I'm talking about the entire tenure of the chairman you are slating, not part of it. Do you still think having an owner who runs the club down is no different to having an owner(s) who have ambition and have shown it ? Amazing. We were careful with our spending when Bobby 1st took over, then we started spending more after a coulpe of seasons iirc. Well, if you are saying you expect Mike Ashley to show ambition in a year or two, then feel free. I'll be surprised though. But he may also have to, when we are down a league, crowds are 20,000 and the penny drops with most of the daft posters who still back him, as well as himself. Do you expect an owner of Newcastle Utd to have to support the club out of his own money? If so, when did you change your mind? Do you think that a club such as Newcastle Utd should be self sufficient? If so, how do you think that could be achieved? do you think it is possible to be successful without taking risks, or to rephrase it, how much scope in football is there for teams to be successful and make profits ? Or do you sit back and accept mediocrity and possibly small profits ?? Which would you prefer, attempting to be successful or not ? I think you have to take calculated risks. Tbh, i'm not sure how profitable an EPL club is so i don't know the answer. Other peolpe seem to suggest you don't buy an EPL club to make a lot of money. I would prefer attampting to be successful but i wouldn't want to confuse ability with ambition. Now answer my questions. ?

oh dear, I remember people saying that people like me were talking nonsense when we said Ashley was turning the club into a 2nd rate selling club again, and heading for relegation through selling players and looking for cheap replacements. When exactly do you think we will match the european qualifications that we have seen for the last 15 years, under Ashleys strategy ? stretch the question further and ask if fred would have matched the european qualifications we've seen for the last 15years ? would he have just spent the banks money to try and emulate it ? Lets go back to the appointment of Allardyce, and the point made by HTT, when he said that it was thought to be a good appointment at the time of someone waiting for a big job, coupled with the fact that his track record suggested he could build a pretty good side with little money. Whether he could make the top 4 is arguable, and we won't now know, but it suggested that the Halls and Shepherd were aware of this need, in the short term. I'm pretty sure that their ultimate ambitions would have remained as high as they always were, which are much higher than Ashleys, and I'm also pretty sure that at the current moment in time, they wouldn't be sitting back and watching the team heading for relegation and try to reverse it. Mind, the amount of u-turns by people who urged them to keep spending, and backed Souness in his spending spree, but now say how wrong it was, is quite amazing. i'd reckon ashleys ambition was to do aswell as possible without running up massive debt.........your way sees everton of having a lack of ambition, a lack that sees them regularly finish well clear off ambitious freds outfit. Everton are just the team doing the best for the moment of a whole load of clubs that don't have the big ambition that they should. Thats all, nothing more and nothing less. If you are saying you would swap their last decade for ours, then I wouldn't agree, and if you are saying what they have done in the past decade is good enough for you, then thats up to you. It;s this mistaken idea that you and others have that everybody else has done things better than us, and the grass is always greener. despite results to the contrary which is pretty daft like. You thought the grass was greener when the Halls and Shepherd ran the club and now they have gone, we are sinking like a stone. Has Shay Given gone yet ? All we need is Ashleys mouthpiece to come out again and say its "good business", and I'm sure a lot of gullible people will swallow it whole. i'd swap their last 5 years for ours. as for sinking like a stone i'll claim you are LYING if you think it's only since fred left. I'm not talking about the last 5 years, I'm talking about the entire tenure of the chairman you are slating, not part of it. Do you still think having an owner who runs the club down is no different to having an owner(s) who have ambition and have shown it ? Amazing. We were careful with our spending when Bobby 1st took over, then we started spending more after a coulpe of seasons iirc. Well, if you are saying you expect Mike Ashley to show ambition in a year or two, then feel free. I'll be surprised though. But he may also have to, when we are down a league, crowds are 20,000 and the penny drops with most of the daft posters who still back him, as well as himself. Do you expect an owner of Newcastle Utd to have to support the club out of his own money? If so, when did you change your mind? Do you think that a club such as Newcastle Utd should be self sufficient? If so, how do you think that could be achieved? do you think it is possible to be successful without taking risks, or to rephrase it, how much scope in football is there for teams to be successful and make profits ? Or do you sit back and accept mediocrity and possibly small profits ?? Which would you prefer, attempting to be successful or not ? I think you have to take calculated risks. Tbh, i'm not sure how profitable an EPL club is so i don't know the answer. Other peolpe seem to suggest you don't buy an EPL club to make a lot of money. I would prefer attampting to be successful but i wouldn't want to confuse ability with ambition. Now answer my questions.