Joe Kinnear to be made permanent - what would it take?

Yorkie · November 9, 2008

I'd give him until the end of the season, but I'm not sure I'd want to see him taking control of transfers.

I certainly wouldn't. The man just isn't close to being good enough.

We'll keep picking up the odd win so his time here doesn't look like a complete disaster and as I've said I'll give him credit for trying his best at keeping things ticking over, but that's all.

Fact is he needs to go and be replaced by someone with a lot more tactical sense, Ashley needs to go so they'll be some spending and stability at the club, and the likes of Smith, Cacapa, and Butt have to be replaced as soon as possible. In a perfect world this would all be the case by the January window. In reality, whatever Harris says, I don't think it will be.

To be honest, unless the new people want Keegan back, there is no-one out there who would risk coming mid-season who is better than Kinnear.

£ $ £ $ £ $

Yorkie · November 9, 2008

I'd give him until the end of the season, but I'm not sure I'd want to see him taking control of transfers.

I certainly wouldn't. The man just isn't close to being good enough.

We'll keep picking up the odd win so his time here doesn't look like a complete disaster and as I've said I'll give him credit for trying his best at keeping things ticking over, but that's all.

Fact is he needs to go and be replaced by someone with a lot more tactical sense

Nail on the head there. I find myself seriously disliking the guy because it's so frustrating watching him attempt to sort out out club, but in fairness to him, he's just so incredibly out of his depth. The players are saving him at the moment like. The moment they fuck up, ie Caçapa today, and put us in the shit - he hasn't got the first clue how to deal with it. Today's sorry show simply underlined what he is. Inept. We're doing alright, creating chances, need a goal desperately - so he takes off our most creative outlet with no replacement, and goes long-ball. It epitomised his management.

But he's as good as we could get.

Please God, just let us sell the club.

Wrong.

Owen was our most creative player while Jonas was out. He was influential in most of our attacking play.

I agree that we should have left both on in a perfect world but to say he took him off without a replacement is just inaccurate.

Owen barely got a touch when he came on! He's hardly a creator, is he? He's a tidy passer of the ball, but at the end of the day, he's a finisher. We lost all creative outlet when Jonas went off, even though he wasn't having a great game. To hae taken him off and not replace him even with Geremi, was a total joke. Why didn't he take Duff off instead, btw? Was Duff better than Jonas? Not imo.

Syrette · November 9, 2008

Exactly. Owen coming on was fair enough, but the fact that Duff stayed on the pitch yet Jonas didn't, wasn't.

James · November 9, 2008

I'd give him until the end of the season, but I'm not sure I'd want to see him taking control of transfers.

I certainly wouldn't. The man just isn't close to being good enough.

We'll keep picking up the odd win so his time here doesn't look like a complete disaster and as I've said I'll give him credit for trying his best at keeping things ticking over, but that's all.

Fact is he needs to go and be replaced by someone with a lot more tactical sense, Ashley needs to go so they'll be some spending and stability at the club, and the likes of Smith, Cacapa, and Butt have to be replaced as soon as possible. In a perfect world this would all be the case by the January window. In reality, whatever Harris says, I don't think it will be.

To be honest, unless the new people want Keegan back, there is no-one out there who would risk coming mid-season who is better than Kinnear.

£ $ £ $ £ $

Very naive way of looking at things when:

a) There are no guarantees that the people going on will be able to pay any more than Ashley

b) The new owners may be very limited in their knowledge of who the good managers are.

c) Top managers put their careers ahead of financial gain in most instances. Any self-respecting candidate will tell us to wait until the end of the season if they think we want them that badly.

Yorkie · November 9, 2008

Assuming the team isn't totally lost at sea, slogging it out in the relegation zone without a hope in the world, offer a manager megabucks - both for his salary and to improve the team, then he'll consider it. It's not naive, it's football today.

November 9, 2008

I'd give him until the end of the season, but I'm not sure I'd want to see him taking control of transfers.

I certainly wouldn't. The man just isn't close to being good enough.

We'll keep picking up the odd win so his time here doesn't look like a complete disaster and as I've said I'll give him credit for trying his best at keeping things ticking over, but that's all.

Fact is he needs to go and be replaced by someone with a lot more tactical sense

Nail on the head there. I find myself seriously disliking the guy because it's so frustrating watching him attempt to sort out out club, but in fairness to him, he's just so incredibly out of his depth. The players are saving him at the moment like. The moment they fuck up, ie Caçapa today, and put us in the shit - he hasn't got the first clue how to deal with it. Today's sorry show simply underlined what he is. Inept. We're doing alright, creating chances, need a goal desperately - so he takes off our most creative outlet with no replacement, and goes long-ball. It epitomised his management.

But he's as good as we could get.

Please God, just let us sell the club.

Wrong.

Owen was our most creative player while Jonas was out. He was influential in most of our attacking play.

I agree that we should have left both on in a perfect world but to say he took him off without a replacement is just inaccurate.

Owen barely got a touch when he came on! He's hardly a creator, is he? He's a tidy passer of the ball, but at the end of the day, he's a finisher. We lost all creative outlet when Jonas went off, even though he wasn't having a great game. To hae taken him off and not replace him even with Geremi, was a total joke. Why didn't he take Duff off instead, btw? Was Duff better than Jonas? Not imo.

Again, you're selling Owen short. He's not just a "tidy passer" for a long time he was instrumental in just about every bit of attacking play we had - while playing behind the strikers (ie. not being the "finisher").

I agree that Duff for Owen would have been the ideal substition. I agree with the majority of what you're saying. I also think it was damaging to the team and the player to bring on Michael Owen at such a crucial time. It's a lot of pressure when you're coming back from an injury.

However, to say that Owen was not a good replacement for Jonas is a bit unfair.

Yorkie · November 9, 2008

Tbf, i was one who always raved about Owen being a creative player at the end of last season. But he really wasn't brought on in that role today. We went long ball, with no focal creativity point, from anyone. Jonas was our creative player today and we didn't replace it when we went off. Owen barely got a touch, as i said.

fredbob · November 9, 2008

I'd give him until the end of the season, but I'm not sure I'd want to see him taking control of transfers.

I certainly wouldn't. The man just isn't close to being good enough.

We'll keep picking up the odd win so his time here doesn't look like a complete disaster and as I've said I'll give him credit for trying his best at keeping things ticking over, but that's all.

Fact is he needs to go and be replaced by someone with a lot more tactical sense, Ashley needs to go so they'll be some spending and stability at the club, and the likes of Smith, Cacapa, and Butt have to be replaced as soon as possible. In a perfect world this would all be the case by the January window. In reality, whatever Harris says, I don't think it will be.

To be honest, unless the new people want Keegan back, there is no-one out there who would risk coming mid-season who is better than Kinnear.

£ $ £ $ £ $

Very naive way of looking at things when:

a) There are no guarantees that the people going on will be able to pay any more than Ashley
b) The new owners may be very limited in their knowledge of who the good managers are.
c) Top managers put their careers ahead of financial gain in most instances. Any self-respecting candidate will tell us to wait until the end of the season if they think we want them that badly.

Do you think about what you write or just go blind and let God do his thing?

Yorkie · November 9, 2008

Neil · November 9, 2008

As some sort of defence to Kinnear today regarding Jonas' subsitution, what did Jonas do to merit staying on? He seemed fairly ineffective for most of the game, and at times looked semi-disinterested. I agree that Duff should have been taken off, but all I'm saying is that, rightly or wrongly, Jonas on the basis of the performance up to the point he as taken off, was deserving of coming off. He wasn't the only one, though.

fredbob · November 9, 2008

As some sort of defence to Kinnear today regarding Jonas' subsitution, what did Jonas do to merit staying on? He seemed fairly ineffective for most of the game, and at times looked semi-disinterested. I agree that Duff should have been taken off, but all I'm saying is that, rightly or wrongly, Jonas on the basis of the performance up to the point he as taken off, was deserving of coming off. He wasn't the only one, though.

I think you've said it yourself, Duff deserved to go off and thats the type of call that defines a manager. Jonas has proved many times this season that he can have positive effects of the team and is always capable of doing something.

Said this before but we'll be seeing a lot of Duff purely and simply due to favouritism.

Yorkie · November 9, 2008

As some sort of defence to Kinnear today regarding Jonas' subsitution, what did Jonas do to merit staying on? He seemed fairly ineffective for most of the game, and at times looked semi-disinterested. I agree that Duff should have been taken off, but all I'm saying is that, rightly or wrongly, Jonas on the basis of the performance up to the point he as taken off, was deserving of coming off. He wasn't the only one, though.

The fact of the matter is, while Jonas is on the pitch, there's still a chance of someone getting past the full-back and playing the ball in. Similarly to Shearer (i like this analogy, i made it the other day :smug: ). If he's on the pitch, there's a chance that you're gonna score. Even if he's shite for 89 minutes. It's the same effect with Jonas.

My main gripe though was that we didn't replace his potential creativty with anything. We took off our one man who could provide something, and did nothing to counter that. What's more, Damien Duff far more deserved to be hauled off.

ElDiablo · November 9, 2008

Jonas did fuck all today, and hasn't done enough in previous games to be immune from being taken off in case he produces something. But he still pisses all over Duff who should have come off straight after we conceded the second. Ideally for me, I would have taken Duff and Jonas off for Zog and Owen.

Yorkie · November 9, 2008

Jonas did fuck all today, and hasn't done enough in previous games to be immune from being taken off in case he produces something. But he still pisses all over Duff who should have come off straight after we conceded. Ideally for me, I would have taken Duff and Jonas off for Zog and Owen.

Agreed - that would have been fair enough. Jonas was average today, no two ways about it. But there was only one time in the second half where one of our players beat a couple of men, got to the byline, and played a dangerous cross past the face of the goal. And it was Jonas. That's what i'm saying - he may be having a mare, but while he's on the pitch, that can still happen. The same cannot be said for the likes of Duff.

johnnypd · November 10, 2008

Jonas did fuck all today, and hasn't done enough in previous games to be immune from being taken off in case he produces something. But he still pisses all over Duff who should have come off straight after we conceded. Ideally for me, I would have taken Duff and Jonas off for Zog and Owen.

Agreed - that would have been fair enough. Jonas was average today, no two ways about it. But there was only one time in the second half where one of our players beat a couple of men, got to the byline, and played a dangerous cross past the face of the goal. And it was Jonas. That's what i'm saying - he may be having a mare, but while he's on the pitch, that can still happen. The same cannot be said for the likes of Duff.

he was poor against Villa too but still had enough in his tank to create Martins 2nd goal in the 83rd minute. there's always a chance he'll do something like that if he is on the pitch whereas duff just doesnt give you the same threat or ability to make something out of nothing.

November 10, 2008

Joe Kinnear is a good manager. However, once/if a new owner comes in I would like to see Joe Kinnear leave (manager's position) and start new/fresh along with a fresh board.

November 10, 2008

Interesting article on F365:

http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,13320_4477854,00.html

JFK Can't Be Trusted With Permanent Gig

It all seems to be going quite well for Newcastle at the moment.

Joe Kinnear seems to have injected some badly needed confidence into the side, despite the result on Sunday at Craven Cottage they are picking up points and perhaps most impressively they are doing it without some of their key players.

Mark Viduka hasn't appeared all season, while Kinnear has only been able to call on Michael Owen to start once, and the likes of Jonas Gutierrez, Oba Martins, Stephen Taylor and Habib Beye have been out for varying lengths of time.

He certainly seems to be getting the most out of his players. Some of the comedy defending that has become synonymous with Newcastle appears to have been eradicated, Damien Duff is showing glimpses of his best form and hell, even Shola Ameobi is scoring.

Kinnear is willing too. On Sunday he said (not for the first time) he'd love to take the job on full-time (indeed, he said he'd be 'gutted' if he didn't get the gig), even though the easy option would be to say his job was done and stroll off with suitcases full of Mike Ashley's cash.

For a club who have suffered so much from instability and unwanted change in the past few years, it would be tempting to stick with what they have, to ask Kinnear to build on this promising start by giving him the permanent job.

However, this would be a huge mistake.

For a start, promoting caretaker/interim managers to the full-time post almost never works, but Kinnear in particular should not be trusted with the gig, largely because he has form in this area.

Having experienced his tenure at Nottingham Forest first hand, I can tell you that the similarities are eerie. Brought in to steady a relegation threatened club with impatient support and ideas above their station, Kinnear was initially successful at the City Ground, fairly comfortably saving Forest from the relegation trouble Paul Hart had left them in.

However, the following season was, as most Forest supporters will tell you, the worst in living memory. By the time Kinnear finally resigned in December 2004 (shortly after declaring the derby against Derby was 'Just another game'. That did not go down well), he left an indisciplined, unfit and over-weight squad that would shamble into the third division with barely a whimper.

Quite apart from the players being out of shape, the squad was desperately lacking in quality. He began with a young, talented but unorganised and poorly led group, but by the time he showed himself the door the Forest ranks included Andy Impey, Alan Rogers and Paul Evans, a nasty central midfielder who appeared to be compensating for his lack of talent with an ever expanding belly.

Gary Megson, his successor, was dismayed with what he found, and spent the next year dismantling a team he described as 'poisonous'. Like Kinnear, Megson's name is mud on the streets of Nottingham (and this in the gun crime capital of the UK. We're so proud), but in truth he had been left with a thankless task.

Kinnear is a fire-fighter, nothing more. He has a talent for harnessing the 'Us Against The World' attitude as a motivational tool, in much the same way that his estranged executive director (football) did at Leeds. Kinnear does well when there are no expectations, not only in those intial few months at Forest, but when he made his name at Wimbledon too.

At present expectations are low at Newcastle - far from winning trophies, the priority at St James's Park is to get out of relegation trouble and find a new owner. However, it won't stay that way for long. Once those two objectives are met, they will be required to push on.

While he may be doing a decent job now, whoever buys Newcastle from Mike Ashley must not keep Kinnear in charge. They should find a proper manager instead.

johnnypd · November 10, 2008

Interesting article on F365:

http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,13320_4477854,00.html

JFK Can't Be Trusted With Permanent Gig

It all seems to be going quite well for Newcastle at the moment.

Joe Kinnear seems to have injected some badly needed confidence into the side, despite the result on Sunday at Craven Cottage they are picking up points and perhaps most impressively they are doing it without some of their key players.

Mark Viduka hasn't appeared all season, while Kinnear has only been able to call on Michael Owen to start once, and the likes of Jonas Gutierrez, Oba Martins, Stephen Taylor and Habib Beye have been out for varying lengths of time.

He certainly seems to be getting the most out of his players. Some of the comedy defending that has become synonymous with Newcastle appears to have been eradicated, Damien Duff is showing glimpses of his best form and hell, even Shola Ameobi is scoring.

Kinnear is willing too. On Sunday he said (not for the first time) he'd love to take the job on full-time (indeed, he said he'd be 'gutted' if he didn't get the gig), even though the easy option would be to say his job was done and stroll off with suitcases full of Mike Ashley's cash.

For a club who have suffered so much from instability and unwanted change in the past few years, it would be tempting to stick with what they have, to ask Kinnear to build on this promising start by giving him the permanent job.

However, this would be a huge mistake.

For a start, promoting caretaker/interim managers to the full-time post almost never works, but Kinnear in particular should not be trusted with the gig, largely because he has form in this area.

Having experienced his tenure at Nottingham Forest first hand, I can tell you that the similarities are eerie. Brought in to steady a relegation threatened club with impatient support and ideas above their station, Kinnear was initially successful at the City Ground, fairly comfortably saving Forest from the relegation trouble Paul Hart had left them in.

However, the following season was, as most Forest supporters will tell you, the worst in living memory. By the time Kinnear finally resigned in December 2004 (shortly after declaring the derby against Derby was 'Just another game'. That did not go down well), he left an indisciplined, unfit and over-weight squad that would shamble into the third division with barely a whimper.

Quite apart from the players being out of shape, the squad was desperately lacking in quality. He began with a young, talented but unorganised and poorly led group, but by the time he showed himself the door the Forest ranks included Andy Impey, Alan Rogers and Paul Evans, a nasty central midfielder who appeared to be compensating for his lack of talent with an ever expanding belly.

Gary Megson, his successor, was dismayed with what he found, and spent the next year dismantling a team he described as 'poisonous'. Like Kinnear, Megson's name is mud on the streets of Nottingham (and this in the gun crime capital of the UK. We're so proud), but in truth he had been left with a thankless task.

Kinnear is a fire-fighter, nothing more. He has a talent for harnessing the 'Us Against The World' attitude as a motivational tool, in much the same way that his estranged executive director (football) did at Leeds. Kinnear does well when there are no expectations, not only in those intial few months at Forest, but when he made his name at Wimbledon too.

At present expectations are low at Newcastle - far from winning trophies, the priority at St James's Park is to get out of relegation trouble and find a new owner. However, it won't stay that way for long. Once those two objectives are met, they will be required to push on.

While he may be doing a decent job now, whoever buys Newcastle from Mike Ashley must not keep Kinnear in charge. They should find a proper manager instead.

spot on

merlin · November 10, 2008

What would it take for Kinnear to be made permanent ?

A total brainstorm by the new owners....

Dr Venkman · November 13, 2008

i see JFK's getting his injury excuses in now, saying that our replacement players for injured ones aren't as good and thats why we're losing. souness book of management, clueless.

Fatwax · November 13, 2008

Good article, that.