Owen's replacement

[fredbob]

A striker's job is to score goals, therefore 2 goals is a better performance. I said he would benefit from a midfielder who could pass, that is a midfielder's job.

 

Wrong, a strikers job nowadays is to do a bit of everything, including defending from the front. Your definitions of what players should do are far too rigid and you're seriously missing the point about the irrelavence of who scores the goals.

 

In your world striker D isnt doing as good a job as striker C, but if i said stiker D was actually an AM you;d be creaming over this stat.

 

Sorry for the stupid examples.

[fredbob]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen.

 

I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field.

 

Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product.

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre.

 

I'm willing to bet that Martins has scored more for us from being played through on goal than Owen has.

 

I reckon Owen has scored more with his. Really does how the goal was scored matter?

 

 

 

I was replying to this part...

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable.

 

I think Martins has scored more goals when played through so if anything he would benefit just as much with an intelligent ball playing midfielder in the team.

 

I would imagine all strikers would benefit from a intelligent ball playing midfielder. I am not arsed who scores Oba,Owen or Alan Smith it all means the same to me Newcastle United have scored. I hope both Oba & Owen score over 20 goals this season & they can all be pens or 1 yard tap ins as well.

 

Assists can be the biggest myth going, the player who passed the ball to Maradonna before he beat 5 England player in 1986 is hardly worthy of being known as creative force for that goal.

 

I very much doubt he'd get accredited with an assist. Im not sure about the process but very confident that that wouldnt be the case as there isnt direct involvment with the oppurtunity, although i think you might be right to some extent, i think a player is acredited with an assist if the other players scores from a rebound.

[Thespence]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen.

 

I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field.

 

Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product.

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre.

 

I'm willing to bet that Martins has scored more for us from being played through on goal than Owen has.

 

I reckon Owen has scored more with his.  Really does how the goal was scored matter?

 

 

 

I was replying to this part...

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable.

 

I think Martins has scored more goals when played through so if anything he would benefit just as much with an intelligent ball playing midfielder in the team.

 

I would imagine all strikers would benefit from a intelligent ball playing midfielder. I am not arsed who scores Oba,Owen or Alan Smith it all means the same to me Newcastle United have scored. I hope both Oba & Owen score over 20 goals this season & they can all be pens or 1 yard tap ins as well.

 

Assists can be the biggest myth going, the player who passed the ball to Maradonna before he beat 5 England player in 1986 is hardly worthy of being known as creative force for that goal.

 

I very much doubt he'd get accredited with an assist. Im not sure about the process but very cinfident that that wouldnt be the case.

 

They are last player to pass to the goalscorer is how assists are worked out.

[Ronaldo]

A striker's job is to score goals, therefore 2 goals is a better performance. I said he would benefit from a midfielder who could pass, that is a midfielder's job.

 

by that definition, Andy Cole is a more effective striker than Dennis Bergkamp tbh

[Thespence]

A striker's job is to score goals, therefore 2 goals is a better performance. I said he would benefit from a midfielder who could pass, that is a midfielder's job.

 

by that definition, Andy Cole is a more effective striker than Dennis Bergkamp tbh

 

Andy Cole was a striker, Dennis Bergkamp was a forward.

[Ronaldo]

A striker's job is to score goals, therefore 2 goals is a better performance. I said he would benefit from a midfielder who could pass, that is a midfielder's job.

 

by that definition, Andy Cole is a more effective striker than Dennis Bergkamp tbh

 

Andy Cole was a striker, Dennis Bergkamp was a forward.

 

 

[fredbob]

If we had anyone in the middle of midfield with an ounce of creativity Owen would have a shitload more now. By saying you'd rather Martins than Owen you're accepting that we're average. You can't count assists as goals btw, an assist can just be a regular pass to another player then they've hit a shot, doesn't mean he's created it.

 

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player.

 

Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists?

 

The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created.

 

You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen.

 

I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field.

 

Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product.

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre.

 

I'm willing to bet that Martins has scored more for us from being played through on goal than Owen has.

 

I reckon Owen has scored more with his.  Really does how the goal was scored matter?

 

 

 

I was replying to this part...

 

Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable.

 

I think Martins has scored more goals when played through so if anything he would benefit just as much with an intelligent ball playing midfielder in the team.

 

I would imagine all strikers would benefit from a intelligent ball playing midfielder. I am not arsed who scores Oba,Owen or Alan Smith it all means the same to me Newcastle United have scored. I hope both Oba & Owen score over 20 goals this season & they can all be pens or 1 yard tap ins as well.

 

Assists can be the biggest myth going, the player who passed the ball to Maradonna before he beat 5 England player in 1986 is hardly worthy of being known as creative force for that goal.

 

I very much doubt he'd get accredited with an assist. Im not sure about the process but very cinfident that that wouldnt be the case.

 

They are last player to pass to the goalscorer is how assists are worked out.

 

I very much doubt he'd get accredited with an assist. Im not sure about the process but very confident that that wouldnt be the case as there isnt direct involvment with the oppurtunity, although i think you might be right to some extent, i think a player is acredited with an assist if the other players scores from a rebound.

 

 

[Dave]

Would people take a straight swap, Owen (1 in 2) for Rooney (1 in 3)?

 

Ignoring their ages and the fact it'd not happen in a million years, obviously.

[fredbob]

Would people take a straight swap, Owen (1 in 2) for Rooney (1 in 3)?

 

Ignoring their ages and the fact it'd not happen in a million years, obviously.

 

Would of been easier to just say that - thanks Dave!

 

God Im such a long winded fuck! 

[ElDiablo]

Would people take a straight swap, Owen (1 in 2) for Rooney (1 in 3)?

 

Ignoring their ages and the fact it'd not happen in a million years, obviously.

 

Goals win games.

[Thespence]

Would people take a straight swap, Owen (1 in 2) for Rooney (1 in 3)?

 

Ignoring their ages and the fact it'd not happen in a million years, obviously.

 

Would I take a player that cost a club £30 million compared one that cost about £17.5 million? TOO FUCKING RIGHT

[ElDiablo]

A striker's job is to score goals, therefore 2 goals is a better performance. I said he would benefit from a midfielder who could pass, that is a midfielder's job.

 

Wrong, a strikers job nowadays is to do a bit of everything, including defending from the front. Your definitions of what players should do are far too rigid and you're seriously missing the point about the irrelavence of who scores the goals.

 

In your world striker D isnt doing as good a job as striker C, but if i said stiker D was actually an AM you;d be creaming over this stat.

 

Sorry for the stupid examples.

 

Fuck sake, a strikers primary objective is to score goals, nothing about having rigid definitions. How the fuck can you not see that goals are more important than assists, passing or any other bullshit when talking about strikers?

[fredbob]

Would people take a straight swap, Owen (1 in 2) for Rooney (1 in 3)?

 

Ignoring their ages and the fact it'd not happen in a million years, obviously.

 

Goals win games.

 

ElDiablos argumetns falling apart as we speak. 

 

Edit :TheSpence, you might be right about assists.

[Ronaldo]

reading this thread one might assume that Owen's goal record is considerably better than Oba's, it most certainly isn't.

[Thespence]

reading this thread one might assume that Owen's goal record is considerably better than Oba's, it most certainly isn't.

 

Correct, both top scored with 11 league goals. Oba has the better for the season mark with 17.

[juniatmoko]

Would people take a straight swap, Owen (1 in 2) for Rooney (1 in 3)?

 

Ignoring their ages and the fact it'd not happen in a million years, obviously.

 

Would I take a player that cost a club £30 million compared one that cost about £17.5 million? TOO f***ing RIGHT

 

so assuming that you would swaps... jonas (which cost none) with bentley?

[Begbie]

Owen score 1 in 2 games for us, and is injured 3 of 4 games. So if you count how many games newcastle play and how his goal ratio is pr newcastle game, then it isnt excactly good is it. We should be able to replace a striker who scores 9-11 goals a season, shouldnt we?

[Thespence]

Would people take a straight swap, Owen (1 in 2) for Rooney (1 in 3)?

 

Ignoring their ages and the fact it'd not happen in a million years, obviously.

 

Would I take a player that cost a club £30 million compared one that cost about £17.5 million? TOO f***ing RIGHT

 

so assuming that you would swaps... jonas (which cost none) with bentley?

 

There was no fee for Jonas because he was out of contract. I would take the Bentley of last year over Jonas of now but I would not take the Bentley of this season over Duff.

 

[fredbob]

A striker's job is to score goals, therefore 2 goals is a better performance. I said he would benefit from a midfielder who could pass, that is a midfielder's job.

 

Wrong, a strikers job nowadays is to do a bit of everything, including defending from the front. Your definitions of what players should do are far too rigid and you're seriously missing the point about the irrelavence of who scores the goals.

 

In your world striker D isnt doing as good a job as striker C, but if i said stiker D was actually an AM you;d be creaming over this stat.

 

Sorry for the stupid examples.

 

Fuck sake, a strikers primary objective is to score goals, nothing about having rigid definitions. How the fuck can you not see that goals are more important than assists, passing or any other bullshit when talking about strikers?

 

 

Because at the end of the day if we win 2-0 it makes no differences who's created the goal and whos scored it.

[Cajun]

Would people take a straight swap, Owen (1 in 2) for Rooney (1 in 3)?

 

Ignoring their ages and the fact it'd not happen in a million years, obviously.

 

Goals win games.

 

Pets win prizes.

 

 

 

 

Pwned!

[Yorkie]

reading this thread one might assume that Owen's goal record is considerably better than Oba's, it most certainly isn't.

 

Correct, both top scored with 11 league goals. Oba has the better for the season mark with 17.

 

Ah, the classic Owen vs Martins argument. The fact of the matter is, when they're both in the team they create goals for each other, be it through direct assists or not. I mean... just who the fuck do you mark? See Martins' goal vs Portsmouth. Defense in a muddle, NUFC are in the box, who the hell do you go for? If you don't focus on both of them, one of them will have a shot at goal.

 

Add one Mark Viduka to the equation and as a defense, you're royally bumraped. I know it's been harped on about, but if we can find a formula where we can accommodate the three to good effect then we'll win more games than we lose. (See Keegan. K)

 

As far as i'm concerned, Owen - and Martins equally - is irreplaceable.

[Guest The German]

Would people take a straight swap, Owen (1 in 2) for Rooney (1 in 3)?

 

Last 4 Years in all competitions:

 

Owen: 71 Matches, 32 Goals, 3 Assists = 0,45 Goals per Match , 0,04 Assists per Match

Rooney: 172 Matches, 72 Goals, 30 Assists = 0,42 Goals per Match , 0,17 Assists per Match

 

btw.

Martins: 127 Matches, 43 Goals , 8 Assists = 0,34 Goals per Match , 0,06 Assists per Match

Gomez: 144 Matches, 73 Goals, 23 Assists = 0,51 Goals per Match , 0,16 Assists per Match

[WhatTheFunk]

 

Jermain Defoe

[mrmojorisin75]

things is, with owen, he's been out of the team so much it's not like we've built a team and style of play around him or anything is it?

 

martins still has the pace so whether we get another diminutive poacher like owen or a bigger target man to play off like viduka i don't think it matters

 

goals are all that counts...as someone else said maybe it'll signal a change in direction 'cause ashleys mob certain won't understand the "number 9" factor like FS did and spend to keep it going...they'll just not do it, whoever they sign, if anyone will follow the bassong/jonas mould for me

 

goals might need to start coming from around the team a little more, change the style of play that way

 

and yes, i know owen isn't number 9

[madras]

reading this thread one might assume that Owen's goal record is considerably better than Oba's, it most certainly isn't.

 

Correct, both top scored with 11 league goals. Oba has the better for the season mark with 17.

 

Ah, the classic Owen vs Martins argument. The fact of the matter is, when they're both in the team they create goals for each other, be it through direct assists or not. I mean... just who the f*** do you mark? See Martins' goal vs Portsmouth. Defense in a muddle, NUFC are in the box, who the hell do you go for? If you don't focus on both of them, one of them will have a shot at goal.

 

Add one Mark Viduka to the equation and as a defense, you're royally bumraped. I know it's been harped on about, but if we can find a formula where we can accommodate the three to good effect then we'll win more games than we lose. (See Keegan. K)

 

As far as i'm concerned, Owen - and Martins equally - is irreplaceable.

it's how to get the best out of the team. the front 3,owen-viduka-martins may work but will it get the best out of others eg jonas,who is already playing out of his best position (imo)