Christmas Tree Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Why not just let the people who want to discuss him, discuss him and the people who just want to hoy abuse give it a rest. Surely Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEMTEX Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Why not just let the people who want to discuss him, discuss him and the people who just want to hoy abuse give it a rest. Surely Because they're idiots talking shite. They need to be slapped down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexf Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7440/hahp.jpg Everyone play nice and share the love Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredbob Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I imagine its this kind of scrutiny which has caused him so many personal problems in his career. Genuinely feel for the lad when he's had thiis kind of shit all his football life. All this analysis over an 18 minute period in a game we won anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Hop. He could have played it with his left a split second before that screenshot was taken. As for looking stupid, you've been shown up to post screenshots to try and shoot down my point not banking on someone else posting one that proved me right, quite embarrassing for you really. Nobody else has posted a screenshot never mind one that's proved you right. You are nitpicking about a player who is returning from a double leg break and an ankle injury. He's been out for the best part of a year and missed most of pre-season. You're having a go at Ben Arfa because he failed to make a pass which was almost impossible to make. Here's a second earlier, how could he have made a pass? For him to play a ball that Ba is going to get on the end of is impossible because Ben Arfa would have to play the ball in front of Ba and if he did that the defender would be first to it. You're the one going on about the pass and you're wrong. http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3734/benarfaandba.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 can't believe i'm wading in here like but disagree Mick, i remember at the time thinking HBA should have played the ball in behind watching it live look at the 2 photos there as well, ba is behind distin and sees where he assumes ba was going to run, in the later photo you see ba has started to take advantage of that and is headed into open space away from distin which he can't see, if the ball was over the top and angled towards the right corner flag ba would have been in imo what the pics also show is it all happened in a heartbeat and the lad is clearly not yet fully up to speed so there's no way he should be hung out to dry for it either Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliottman Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Baggio wanting a glory ball in the 89th minute rather than having the player keep hold of the ball and your calling Ben Arfa? Dear me. He had 3 options as far as I was concerned. 1) Play the ball over to Ba to run clean through. 2) Run the ball into the corner and kill time. 3) Turn around and play it back to Guthrie. He didn't do any of these things, instead he tried to beat the same man a few times and ended up losing the ball in our own half, that isn't keeping the ball. I thought he took him on and got brought down and won a free kick? Unless i remember it wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Cannot believe Christmas Tree has just told someone to grow up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 can't believe i'm wading in here like but disagree Mick, i remember at the time thinking HBA should have played the ball in behind watching it live look at the 2 photos there as well, ba is behind distin and sees where he assumes ba was going to run, in the later photo you see ba has started to take advantage of that and is headed into open space away from distin which he can't see, if the ball was over the top and angled towards the right corner flag ba would have been in imo what the pics also show is it all happened in a heartbeat and the lad is clearly not yet fully up to speed so there's no way he should be hung out to dry for it either The thing is though, you only know what run Ba has made once he's made it because he started off on the same side of the defender as Ben Arfa. Ba was running parallel with the defender and Ben Arfa was now in full flight and a chance to make the pass was gone. Within 2 seconds we’d gone from the last screenshot to Ba being offside. I don’t know what people expect from him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Whilst i don't think you can argue with the points you've made regarding that particular incident, why are you laying into HBA so early on? Are you not satisfied with it just being down to rustiness and a lack of pre-season, or do you genuinely think he's going to be an ineffectual player for us? I think he's a very talented player that can have a big role for us, you may be surprised to hear that with the strawman arguments his fans have attempted to build up but if you read back through at no time have I ever said he isn't any good. The doubts I have are as follows... He will improve the current team: People seem to think all we have to do is select him over Best and we will become an even better side which I don't see as being the case. One of the main reasons we are where we are in the league is down to the amount of work our players put in when we don't have the ball, we're not playing teams off the park by any stretch of the imagination but we are putting a ridiculous amount of effort in closing down and tracking back when we don't have the ball, a good example of this is when I posted on Saturday about Ba not having the best of games but he still put the work in and that is the same for all of our midfield and attack recently, we've seen with Cabaye that he hasn't been up to his high standards lately that he set at the beginning of the season but he's still putting plenty of work in covering the pitch and the same goes for Ba, Best, Tiote and Jonas. Ben Arfa is different in that he's not going to graft but he's technically more gifted than anyone else in our attack, that's great when he's up to speed and if he settles into the team but at the moment he isn't which makes me think he could end up being a passenger which we can't afford to have, this opinion is backed up by people who watched the Blackburn game that he started and was anonymous for large parts of it apparently. People bring up how long Coloccini and Enrique took to settle in before finding their best form but the difference now is that we have a very good alternative in Best and Ba that have formed a good partnership, back then if we didn't play Colo we had Taylor who was equally poor and N'Zogbia to cover Enrique, I would hate to throw away our current position by attempting to get a player that isn't up to speed and might not be any time soon. Partnership with Ba: The second problem I have is the potential partnership with Ba, I think people presume that Ba is a target man type but I don't see this as being the case and at West Ham and before coming to England he's played in more a withdrawn role, a role he continues to play here with great success (15 goals in 22 Premiership games) so how do him and Ben Arfa play in a withdrawn position unless we're going with 3 up top? People have suggested that Ba could play more of a target man role but when he's been as successful as all but a few in front of goal playing this role why should he change to accommodate someone? So not only do I think he lacks the work ethic for this current team but I think him playing in a number 10 role with Ba could leave the whole attack imbalanced, all this while he' clearly not up to speed anyway. Team player?: In the 10 appearances he's made since he's been here for me he's looked anything but a team player which I think is important for anyone playing in the number 10 role, we've heard people compliment him on his dribbling skills and such but how many occasions can you say he was an important factor in making something happen for someone else since he's been here? That's not having a go at the lad but it's a pretty obvious thing to notice and something that he can get away with more out wide than when he's relied on to be the heartbeat of the team. People have said that it's because of a lack of options in front of him but if he is going to play that role then it's only going to be Ba there the majority of the time anyway, he's going to find himself in plenty of similar situations like he did against Everton but is he going to continue to play for himself instead of others like a VDV would? I know people think I'm being harsh on the lad as he's been out injured so long but I don't think I am, if people were not demanding him being in the starting line up up top now then I'd happily give him his cameo's to get up to speed like I am with Gosling, however if he is going to have a starting place for us then I expect better than what we've seen so far and I don't care how long he's been out either, like I said if he's not performing he's a luxury that I don't think we can carry and maintain our current form at the same time. Long term I think he's going to struggle to get in up top, not because of Best as I don't think Pardew rates him that highly but I see whichever striker he buys if it's Maiga or whoever I see it with a view of linking up with Ba, our biggest goal threat by some distance, so what I'd like to see is HBA played out on the right which will give him his chance to get his fitness back and then for us to buy a solid right back (OMG Santon is a right back etc) that is happy to sit and cover leaving HBA to have a more free role out wide, someone like Onuoha would be great for the role. So to summarise I don't think Ben Arfa is shite, I also don't think him having one good game, scoring a great goal like he did against Everton or getting an assist would have proven me wrong which some are building their straw men to mean, it's about looking at the bigger picture and seeing if the form of the team improves or drops off over a longer period than that. 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AyeDubbleYoo Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I imagine its this kind of scrutiny which has caused him so many personal problems in his career. Genuinely feel for the lad when he's had thiis kind of shit all his football life. All this analysis over an 18 minute period in a game we won anyway. It is madness when you look at it like that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Hop. He could have played it with his left a split second before that screenshot was taken. As for looking stupid, you've been shown up to post screenshots to try and shoot down my point not banking on someone else posting one that proved me right, quite embarrassing for you really. Nobody else has posted a screenshot never mind one that's proved you right. You are nitpicking about a player who is returning from a double leg break and an ankle injury. He's been out for the best part of a year and missed most of pre-season. You're having a go at Ben Arfa because he failed to make a pass which was almost impossible to make. Here's a second earlier, how could he have made a pass? For him to play a ball that Ba is going to get on the end of is impossible because Ben Arfa would have to play the ball in front of Ba and if he did that the defender would be first to it. You're the one going on about the pass and you're wrong. http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3734/benarfaandba.jpg You wait a second, spot his run which you can see Distin isn't watching and left it over into the space. It's really not a hard pass at all and if Ba did get it first which is likely and Distin did catch up with him he wouldn't be able to touch him without fear of a sending off. It was an excellent chance missed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 But so what? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Hop. He could have played it with his left a split second before that screenshot was taken. As for looking stupid, you've been shown up to post screenshots to try and shoot down my point not banking on someone else posting one that proved me right, quite embarrassing for you really. Nobody else has posted a screenshot never mind one that's proved you right. You are nitpicking about a player who is returning from a double leg break and an ankle injury. He's been out for the best part of a year and missed most of pre-season. You're having a go at Ben Arfa because he failed to make a pass which was almost impossible to make. Here's a second earlier, how could he have made a pass? For him to play a ball that Ba is going to get on the end of is impossible because Ben Arfa would have to play the ball in front of Ba and if he did that the defender would be first to it. You're the one going on about the pass and you're wrong. http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3734/benarfaandba.jpg You wait a second, spot his run which you can see Distin isn't watching and left it over into the space. It's really not a hard pass at all and if Ba did get it first which is likely and Distin did catch up with him he wouldn't be able to touch him without fear of a sending off. It was an excellent chance missed. That pass would have to go between the two defenders. Fine in theory but every chance it would get cut out, in which case you'd be banging on about him losing possession at a key stage of the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Whilst i don't think you can argue with the points you've made regarding that particular incident, why are you laying into HBA so early on? Are you not satisfied with it just being down to rustiness and a lack of pre-season, or do you genuinely think he's going to be an ineffectual player for us? I think he's a very talented player that can have a big role for us, you may be surprised to hear that with the strawman arguments his fans have attempted to build up but if you read back through at no time have I ever said he isn't any good. The doubts I have are as follows... He will improve the current team: People seem to think all we have to do is select him over Best and we will become an even better side which I don't see as being the case. One of the main reasons we are where we are in the league is down to the amount of work our players put in when we don't have the ball, we're not playing teams off the park by any stretch of the imagination but we are putting a ridiculous amount of effort in closing down and tracking back when we don't have the ball, a good example of this is when I posted on Saturday about Ba not having the best of games but he still put the work in and that is the same for all of our midfield and attack recently, we've seen with Cabaye that he hasn't been up to his high standards lately that he set at the beginning of the season but he's still putting plenty of work in covering the pitch and the same goes for Ba, Best, Tiote and Jonas. Ben Arfa is different in that he's not going to graft but he's technically more gifted than anyone else in our attack, that's great when he's up to speed and if he settles into the team but at the moment he isn't which makes me think he could end up being a passenger which we can't afford to have, this opinion is backed up by people who watched the Blackburn game that he started and was anonymous for large parts of it apparently. People bring up how long Coloccini and Enrique took to settle in before finding their best form but the difference now is that we have a very good alternative in Best and Ba that have formed a good partnership, back then if we didn't play Colo we had Taylor who was equally poor and N'Zogbia to cover Enrique, I would hate to throw away our current position by attempting to get a player that isn't up to speed and might not be any time soon. Partnership with Ba: The second problem I have is the potential partnership with Ba, I think people presume that Ba is a target man type but I don't see this as being the case and at West Ham and before coming to England he's played in more a withdrawn role, a role he continues to play here with great success (15 goals in 22 Premiership games) so how do him and Ben Arfa play in a withdrawn position unless we're going with 3 up top? People have suggested that Ba could play more of a target man role but when he's been as successful as all but a few in front of goal playing this role why should he change to accommodate someone? So not only do I think he lacks the work ethic for this current team but I think him playing in a number 10 role with Ba could leave the whole attack imbalanced, all this while he' clearly not up to speed anyway. Team player?: In the 10 appearances he's made since he's been here for me he's looked anything but a team player which I think is important for anyone playing in the number 10 role, we've heard people compliment him on his dribbling skills and such but how many occasions can you say he was an important factor in making something happen for someone else since he's been here? That's not having a go at the lad but it's a pretty obvious thing to notice and something that he can get away with more out wide than when he's relied on to be the heartbeat of the team. People have said that it's because of a lack of options in front of him but if he is going to play that role then it's only going to be Ba there the majority of the time anyway, he's going to find himself in plenty of similar situations like he did against Everton but is he going to continue to play for himself instead of others like a VDV would? I know people think I'm being harsh on the lad as he's been out injured so long but I don't think I am, if people were not demanding him being in the starting line up up top now then I'd happily give him his cameo's to get up to speed like I am with Gosling, however if he is going to have a starting place for us then I expect better than what we've seen so far and I don't care how long he's been out either, like I said if he's not performing he's a luxury that I don't think we can carry and maintain our current form at the same time. Long term I think he's going to struggle to get in up top, not because of Best as I don't think Pardew rates him that highly but I see whichever striker he buys if it's Maiga or whoever I see it with a view of linking up with Ba, our biggest goal threat by some distance, so what I'd like to see is HBA played out on the right which will give him his chance to get his fitness back and then for us to buy a solid right back (OMG Santon is a right back etc) that is happy to sit and cover leaving HBA to have a more free role out wide, someone like Onuoha would be great for the role. So to summarise I don't think Ben Arfa is shite, I also don't think him having one good game, scoring a great goal like he did against Everton or getting an assist would have proven me wrong which some are building their straw men to mean, it's about looking at the bigger picture and seeing if the form of the team improves or drops off over a longer period than that. Excellent post and should get the mature response it deserves and not more straw man stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 It should, but unfortunately nobody can be bothered to read it and the debate is baseless anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I suspect if you took a ten minute television snippet of any game, you could pick out dozens of potential passes that weren't made. That's the difference between watching a game with the benefit of freeze frame from an elevated position and actually having the ball at your feet in the last minute of a Premier League game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 It should, but unfortunately nobody can be bothered to read it and the debate is baseless anyway. More fool them then And how is a well argued post about how a player might fit into the team baseless? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 It should, but unfortunately nobody can be bothered to read it and the debate is baseless anyway. More fool them then And how is a well argued post about how a player might fit into the team baseless? I mean the whole argument is pointless, people arguing against non-existent positions. Nobody has written HBA off and nobody thinks he should start automatically, yet we've had 20+ pages of debate and people posting screenshots to highlight one individual pass he didn't make. It's loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snrub Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 This thread needs the same treatment as the massive Luque one and be deleted. Start a new one when he next plays. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Someone needs to perform a Mortal Kombat fatality here. When Arfa returns to top form we can put this in the Hall of Fame and start a new one that's cleansed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 You wait a second, spot his run which you can see Distin isn't watching and left it over into the space. It's really not a hard pass at all and if Ba did get it first which is likely and Distin did catch up with him he wouldn't be able to touch him without fear of a sending off. It was an excellent chance missed. A second later and he didn't have the angle for the pass because the gap between the two defenders has gone but carry on nitpicking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEMTEX Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Excellent post and should get the mature response it deserves and not more straw man stuff. It's not excellent because it's based off a pathetic amount of minutes on the pitch. As far as I'm concerned HBA hasn't had enough time to prove anything. Positive or negative. Baggio can have his doubts, as we all can, but this persistent reference to "10 games" is a) clearly bullshit, and b) still wouldn't be adequate to prove anything even if he'd played 90 minutes in each. Come back in 2 months, then it'll be a valid opinion. Right now it's over-analysis at it's most extreme. Like, you dumb bastards are literally taking screenshots of each second and analysing it. How the fuck you can anyone think that's sane behaviour?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 It should, but unfortunately nobody can be bothered to read it and the debate is baseless anyway. More fool them then And how is a well argued post about how a player might fit into the team baseless? Charles Hughes almost wrecked English football with his stats based nonsense which on paper looked foolproof. Similarly the dynamics of a football team don't just revolve around how hard a forward works any more than how many skilful wingers you can put into a team. It's about the team as a whole, so you can't argue Ben Arfa's failure to track back as well as the other forwards then ignore what he brings up front. It's like Souness's view on Laurent Robert versus Bobby Robson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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