Hughesy Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Yes - but no-one can ever know exactly how much any one manager uses Prozone. It's just a lazy label that people like to throw about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Yes - but no-one can ever know exactly how much any one manager uses Prozone. It's just a lazy label that people like to throw about. not necessarily if the manager has the team drilled to percentage balls. allardyce definitly and us yestarday apart from ben arfa. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottledDog Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 ... There seems to be an obvious divide of younger fans and older ones on this board, nothing against the younger ones, and to be fair to them, this is probably the best they've seen in terms of league position as fans in their adult lives. The culture of acceptance among those is quite startling to me, having seen tenures like Pardew's an amount of times I can count on almost 2 hands now since we returned to the top flight (and I mean in 1993-1994). It's difficult to express on a forum to fans who love the club, who are obviously younger, a voice of experience while sitting behind a keyboard and a computer screen where people's automatic defensive postures are protected by a shroud of anonymity, with the tendency to pick apart well thought-out posts one sentence at a time, let alone word by word, to build a sense of an online persona. Hi Ronaldo. ... There seems to be no obvious divide of younger fans and older ones on this board. As one of the apparently older supporters I find it pretty startling that you have so little tolerance of a manager that has yet to see one full season with us and yet has brought in and got the players you hold in such high regard to that 6th position you feel 'youngsters' are getting so blinded by (a position a full ten places higher than the seasonal average for the club in my time). Forgive me for only having time to pick up on one of your paragraphs if that is 'doing a Ronaldo', I gave my general thoughts on the previous page to your post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tachikoma Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I suppose I wouldn't have any trouble accepting this if I started supporting the club under Souness instead of Bobby I'm not as angry as I was the day we played Sunderland, so I'm willing to give Pardew a chance to show he's not a total fraud against Arsenal. If he starts Raylor over Ben Arfa again... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughesy Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Not really sure what age has to do with anything. Complete non-point. And one of the most pretentious and patronising posts I have ever read. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 The second half yesterday was as good as I've seen an NUFC team peform in ages, even before the sending off. They had that double chance, but that was the only time I can remember them threatening in our box within 45 minutes. For making the change at half-time and introducing Ben Arfa, Pardew deserves some credit - many of the gripes in here have been that he doesn't react to a s*** performance quickly enough. He certainly did yesterday, and introduced Shola at the right time too. Basically, first half pathetic. Second half great. At least Pards rectified his mistake; with a bit of luck, we'd have won the game yesterday. Optimist here. Sorry for highlighting your particular post on this issue, it's not personal it was just the most recent. How on earth can people credit a manager for making the mistake of not starting your best attacking player on the park by saying he made a good move by putting him on at the start of the second half? There seems to be an obvious divide of younger fans and older ones on this board, nothing against the younger ones, and to be fair to them, this is probably the best they've seen in terms of league position as fans in their adult lives. The culture of acceptance among those is quite startling to me, having seen tenures like Pardew's an amount of times I can count on almost 2 hands now since we returned to the top flight (and I mean in 1993-1994). It's difficult to express on a forum to fans who love the club, who are obviously younger, a voice of experience while sitting behind a keyboard and a computer screen where people's automatic defensive postures are protected by a shroud of anonymity, with the tendency to pick apart well thought-out posts one sentence at a time, let alone word by word, to build a sense of an online persona. Hi Ronaldo. The over-analysis of the 4-3-3 Keegan tactic is 100% unequivocally irrelevant. The point I was making, is that such a manager of that calibre had the confidence and the nous to be able to identify a system that would possibly and logically fit the team he had at his disposal - and try it. If anyone believes for one moment Alan Pardew is doing this with our team, or even attempting to, well I don't know what I can say to you, other than ignorance is bless. If you believe that hoofing the ball long to 2 players who are incapable of playing the way they were asked to (hold up the ball/provide the second ball) is the correct thing to do, and simply blame Krul for his 'poor distribution', I must politely ask you perhaps post a little less and read a little more from those that do know what they are talking about. This won't happen, but I can still ask all the same. I could walk the forum through, player by player, how as a squad, where we sit compared with other squads we've had in all our team in the Premier League and show you that we are almost as strong now as we've ever been compared to previous squads. But some people will just refuse to concede a point, as this is an internet forum where you cannot be wrong, just to save face. So I'm not going to waste the keystrokes, people with the experience following this club know this anyway. If people are happy, let them be happy. But those people that do seem to be happy, also seem to be the ones saying things like the tactical 'masterstroke' of putting HBA on at half time, Krul's poor distribution and how poor our front 2 were yesterday were of no fault of the manager, and this is quite simply wrong. As a fan of 22 years I can very confidently say that Hatem Ben Arfa is one of the most confident and technically skilled players we've ever had in my time, and I would humbly suggest that others who have seen us for longer would agree also, as prior to when I started watching us we weren't exactly in the best of shape until a lot further back. How a football manager cannot accommodate his best player is at the least troubling at any level, but how a Premier League Manager cannot accommodate his best player is shocking. Rewind to Bellamy under Souness, arguably our best player at the time. Due to the nature of this debate and where it's occurring, I know I'm never going to 'win', nor am I trying to - that would be impossible. But you cannot argue with the facts - we are 6th, we are performing as well now as under Roeder, Souness, Allardyce, Dalglish or Gullit. Each and every one of those managers, were found out when results caught up with their performances as the tactics and the management were simply not up to the level required. How many of those managers have gone on to any degree of success after leaving here? Zero. Because they were all poor, and I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Alan Pardew is in exactly the same bracket. How long he lasts will be how long he can be carried by the outstanding individual quality of 5-6 of our players. A good PR man for the club, a good man-manager and a good manager at being able to relate to the fans (although how much of this is down to John Carver's presence is conspicuous). There is a reason managers sacked over and over again at smaller clubs in lower leagues don't strike it lucky at a Premier League club - because they are simply not good enough, and most Premier League chairmen would never hire a manager with his record, it's the basics of recruitment. Take a look at his CV and his reasons for having left his previous clubs and every single chairman would run a mile - except a chairman like Mike Ashley - a track record of being a risk-taker and having an impulsive business mantra. I suppose I better be quiet now and cut all hopes of ever challenging at the top of the table again, just how Mike Ashley likes it. One fine post fella. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilko Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 That post is totally unnecessary when you actually read mine, and see that I said "Pardew rectified his mistake" i.e. not starting Ben Arfa in the first place and picking a side that was too workmanlike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 @milesstarforth Alan Pardew named the Newcastle Sports Personality of the Year at @sportnewcastle's annual dinner at the Civic Centre. #nufc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 A well thought-out post HawK and you obviously have a lot of experience following the club, but I can't agree with your assessment really. We have a squad that has some very good, some good and some terrible players. Pardew has managed that squad to a very respectable league position that was beyond most people's expectations at the start of the season. He took over from a popular manager at a 'crisis club' and he's steered a course through it all. Whether or not the default position of our players is higher or lower than the current league position depends on so many factors that it's almost impossible to argue either way. Everyone who finishes in any league position does so because someone underperforms or overperforms, or their rivals collect slightly more or less points than expected. One of the factors of success or failure is the manager. If we were 16th he would be getting panned, now we're 6th he deserves credit. It's only because we've achieved such a brilliant league position that we've suddenly raised our expectations about the style of football we want to see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottledDog Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 @milesstarforth Alan Pardew named the Newcastle Sports Personality of the Year at @sportnewcastle's annual dinner at the Civic Centre. #nufc /Should have been Sameobi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Instead of intricately working his way to the stage to collect the award, he just asked for it to be thrown long to his table. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Instead of intricately working his way to the stage to collect the award, he just asked for it to be thrown long to his table. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilko Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Sports Pardsonality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFEE Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 A well thought-out post HawK and you obviously have a lot of experience following the club, but I can't agree with your assessment really. We have a squad that has some very good, some good and some terrible players. Pardew has managed that squad to a very respectable league position that was beyond most people's expectations at the start of the season. He took over from a popular manager at a 'crisis club' and he's steered a course through it all. Whether or not the default position of our players is higher or lower than the current league position depends on so many factors that it's almost impossible to argue either way. Everyone who finishes in any league position does so because someone underperforms or overperforms, or their rivals collect slightly more or less points than expected. One of the factors of success or failure is the manager. If we were 16th he would be getting panned, now we're 6th he deserves credit. It's only because we've achieved such a brilliant league position that we've suddenly raised our expectations about the style of football we want to see. Great post... Too many fans these days think football is an exact science... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 If we were 16th he would be getting panned, now we're 6th he deserves credit. It's only because we've achieved such a brilliant league position that we've suddenly raised our expectations about the style of football we want to see. There's something in this, position does make you greedy and objectively it would look ridiculous to almost all fans of other teams to see people in here saying they're not happy but that's what being a fan of your own club is about: Inspecting and analysing everything minutely and I think the scrutiny is worthy and has been for a while. You're right about us being greedy for good football but this team can play so much better than it has, confidence will help us but so will positive tactics and Pardew telling his players to go out there and really go hard at the opposition rather than waiting for counters, moving the ball slowly up the field and hoping that we can ping in an ok cross. We have the speed, skill and ball-players to move it around, get in behind people and really hurt defences. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedudeabides Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 "The best form of defence is attack" is basically a meaningless cliche that doesn't have any weight in this argument. Our biggest strength this season has been our compactness, work rate and willingness to battle for points. I would personally love to see a better style of football, but surely everyone can see why Pardew is reluctant to suddenly chuck what has worked for him so far. Indeed. More to the point, we simply don't have the players to do it. Apart from Hatem Ben Messi obviously. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedudeabides Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 If we were 16th he would be getting panned, now we're 6th he deserves credit. It's only because we've achieved such a brilliant league position that we've suddenly raised our expectations about the style of football we want to see. There's something in this, position does make you greedy and objectively it would look ridiculous to almost all fans of other teams to see people in here saying they're not happy but that's what being a fan of your own club is about: Inspecting and analysing everything minutely and I think the scrutiny is worthy and has been for a while. You're right about us being greedy for good football but this team can play so much better than it has, confidence will help us but so will positive tactics and Pardew telling his players to go out there and really go hard at the opposition rather than waiting for counters, moving the ball slowly up the field and hoping that we can ping in an ok cross. We have the speed, skill and ball-players to move it around, get in behind people and really hurt defences. No, no we don't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 No, no we don't. We really do man, you've just been convinced we can't by Pardew's style of football. If you don't think that Santon, Jonas, Cisse, Cabaye, Tiote, Ben Arfa or Ba are capable of keeping the ball down and moving around defences then you're wrong. Cisse has pace, Ba has great movement and can turn a man exceptionally well. Ben Arfa can walk through people and create space for himself no problems at all and Santon can get in behind teams no problem. If we didn't break so incredibly slowly and were willing to commit more men forward at times instead of slowly creating a very ordered line of attack, then passing it back along the half way line from one touchline to the next, then pushing on, we'd be able to get behind defences instead of letting them get organised. We are far too defensively disciplined when on the break Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedudeabides Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 No, no we don't. We really do man, you've just been convinced we can't by Pardew's style of football. If you don't think that Santon, Jonas, Cisse, Cabaye, Tiote, Ben Arfa or Ba are capable of keeping the ball down and moving around defences then you're wrong. Cisse has pace, Ba has great movement and can turn a man exceptionally well. Ben Arfa can walk through people and create space for himself no problems at all and Santon can get in behind teams no problem. If we didn't break so incredibly slowly and were willing to commit more men forward at times instead of slowly creating a very ordered line of attack, then passing it back along the half way line from one touchline to the next, then pushing on, we'd be able to get behind defences instead of letting them get organised. We are far too defensively disciplined when on the break You want to knock the Championship Manager on the head son. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I've never played champ man,football manager or any of those games even once in my life.don't know what it was I said that made you think that but you're wrong.I guess you think we're maximizing our players at the moment and playing to their strengths?not trying to come across like a dick but we're obviously coming fon two totally different places Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I've never played champ man,football manager or any of those games even once in my life.don't know what it was I said that made you think that but you're wrong.I guess you think we're maximizing our players at the moment and playing to their strengths?not trying to come across like a dick but we're obviously coming fon two totally different places Don't bother. He's got nowt to contribute to the forum other than to say everyone is a computer game playing child/arsehole. Not a clue why he still comes on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I've never played champ man,football manager or any of those games even once in my life.don't know what it was I said that made you think that but you're wrong.I guess you think we're maximizing our players at the moment and playing to their strengths?not trying to come across like a dick but we're obviously coming fon two totally different places Don't bother. He's got nowt to contribute to the forum other than to say everyone is a computer game playing child/arsehole. Not a clue why he still comes on. No worries man, I don't mind debating with people who have a completely different opinion but it gets pointless when they stop talking about football Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEMTEX Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 People can think whatever they want, most the negative Pardew comments are not without merit (sans HTT), but my fear is that this kind of shit can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The media picks up on murmurs from fans, however few, and it just snowballs. I'm absolutely fucking fed up of everything changing every 2 years, I just want a prolonged period of sensible. As far as I'm concerned, we're doing a pretty fucking good job of sensible, with better results than expected. Recent form isn't hopeful, but I have no reason to believe we won't return to the form of earlier in the year, where we were putting away teams that we would've drawn with (or lost to) in years gone by. This will probably need Pards to re-evaluate a few things in his tactics/lineups, but I'm willing to put faith in him that he will steer us in the right direction. I'm only ready to freak out if we start next season playing poorly and find ourselves in the bottom half at Christmas. So in conclusion, shush (for now). I'm scared Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawK Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 A well thought-out post HawK and you obviously have a lot of experience following the club, but I can't agree with your assessment really. We have a squad that has some very good, some good and some terrible players. Pardew has managed that squad to a very respectable league position that was beyond most people's expectations at the start of the season. He took over from a popular manager at a 'crisis club' and he's steered a course through it all. Whether or not the default position of our players is higher or lower than the current league position depends on so many factors that it's almost impossible to argue either way. Everyone who finishes in any league position does so because someone underperforms or overperforms, or their rivals collect slightly more or less points than expected. One of the factors of success or failure is the manager. If we were 16th he would be getting panned, now we're 6th he deserves credit. It's only because we've achieved such a brilliant league position that we've suddenly raised our expectations about the style of football we want to see. Cheers, and no you haven't done a Ronaldo I think I was entitled to one snipe in that post lol. This isn't a reply to you directly as such, I've read over the comments of quite a few. It does all come down to a matter of opinion, and that's the magic that will either divide or unite fans, sack or back a manager or make or break a player. Anyone is welcome to disagree with comparative squad strength, as it is opinion-based, but not without a sound grounding in the facts though. We've rarely had such international pedigree throughout our team, but I would highlight in particular the use of our 2 defensive midfielders, Cabaye and Tiote. The tactical naivety that I was alluding to was essentially that Pardew was playing for the second ball* for most of the game, assuming our midfield pairing would mop them up time and time again, regardless of how our front 2 coped with it. A sound strategy - if you don't also instruct them both to sit practically 5 yards in front of Williamson and Coloccini - except the Sunderland players were wise to this and the huge gap between our front 2 and our midfield 2 was always filled with red and white shirts every time Krul punted it upfield. It's something remedied by a very quick touchline shout to your nearest player to feed on, 'Cabaye, push up on the long balls to get the second ball'. Every manager has qualities, such as those I highlighted earlier with Pardew, but the key, key area that a good/top manager will have, is the footballing acumen/nous to change and adapt to your opposition each game and to be able to fix things when they are no longer working. Even when we were against 10 men, both our fullbacks refused to get forward and support the attack. It's a key thing in today's 4-4-2, with a strong midfield partnership, in possession you should be aiming to get your fullbacks moving forward in line with the ball while your centrebacks sit deep, and Pardew really hasn't cottoned on to this. But bringing the above to a close, Yohan Cabaye is a player who plays at the centre of a French team that has just beaten Germany 2-1 in Germany, a team that the best of the English can't hope to touch right now. We all know how good Tiote is. I can't see beyond poor tactical setup as to why these 2 are not absolutely dominating games even when against 4-5-1. Coloccini has been rightfully lauded as one of the best centre backs in the league, and already Krul is up there as a good keeper, although there aren't too many good keepers around right now. Demba Ba has been here a year and proven his class, Cisse yet to prove so but the signs are there for all to see that he can be successful. We move on to players like Jonas, who until recently was a regular with Argentina, who's ability to retain the ball and hold up play is one of the reasons we were able to survive the second part of last season after Andy Carroll left. Hatem Ben Arfa has been described by French players as one of the most gifted players of his generation. Santon, although learning, has more experience than people give him credit for. He was able to keep CRonaldo in his pocket when he played for Inter in the Champions League. Every team has their Taylors', their Simpsons and their Williamsons, but the difference between them and us is the ability of the manager to at least get them playing in the right manner and to accentuate the strengths of our best players, not refuse to play them due to a lack of tactical knowledge on how to do so. Because our recent history has been so dire, it's easy to be blinded to the very poor tactics by the league position, I can understand that, and I can understand an attitude of 'Ok, lets finish this up and push on next year'. But what I don't understand is how people can praise Pardew so highly for how 'he' has achieved this, I think it's mostly down to the quality of the players at his disposal and the outstanding work of Graham Carr to ensure our recruits don't even seem to need to gel. I have to agree that we're doing OK now, in terms of results. But with the evidence on display with our performances, it's hard to see how a manager of Alan Pardew's ilk is going to get us any further than we are. I mentioned a false ceiling before, and he's the man holding it up right now. * Just realised some may not get what I meant by second ball - It is what is referred to often as when the ball is hoofed upfield (first ball), the resulting header/layoff/knock down of that hoofball is called the second ball. I think Graham Taylor coined it, he invented the long ball after all lol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 People can think whatever they want, most the negative Pardew comments are not without merit (sans HTT), but my fear is that this kind of shit can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The media picks up on murmurs from fans, however few, and it just snowballs. I'm absolutely fucking fed up of everything changing every 2 years, I just want a prolonged period of sensible. As far as I'm concerned, we're doing a pretty fucking good job of sensible, with better results than expected. Recent form isn't hopeful, but I have no reason to believe we won't return to the form of earlier in the year, where we were putting away teams that we would've drawn with (or lost to) in years gone by. This will probably need Pards to re-evaluate a few things in his tactics/lineups, but I'm willing to put faith in him that he will steer us in the right direction. I'm only ready to freak out if we start next season playing poorly and find ourselves in the bottom half at Christmas. So in conclusion, shush (for now). I'm scared Agree with that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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