themanupstairs Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 What would people expect from Pardew next season if we get 6th place this season? 1st! Seriously, if we get 6th this year, i hope we end up around the same place next year. What i want to see next season is a positive development regarding our play. If we get 6th, and we can dominate more games, play better football i am happy. then we can build on that in the future. I would say 7th or better would be a great follow up season, preferably with a better challenge in the cups. Be mad to assume our summer will be without the obligatory cockup/hickup and that the other 'big 6' teams dont improve. Particularly Liverpool & Chelsea. Yep. We should still be looking to improve though, otherwise there's no point. This includes reasonable investment in the playing squad over the summer. There's no telling what could potentially go wrong for Spurs should Redknapp take the England job, and if they see Bale and Modric get sold. The instability at Chelsea and Liverpool's apparent lack of vision could see a top 4 spot seriously open up. If we're smart enough and keep a shrewd eye on the prize, there's no reason we can't challenge for that spot come next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughesy Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Definitely should always be looking to improve, but surely people recognise that we are realistically a £20-30 million worth of investment (and not selling any key players) away from even securing a top 6 slot on a regular basis, let the huge sums it would take to push on beyond that. As Roger Kint pointed out I cannot see there being much chance that Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool will not invest further in the summer to add to their already stronger squads. And whether Ashley invests or not, clearly is not down to Pardew. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliottman Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I'd love to finish 6/7th this year. Two or three really good additions in the summer. We will lose one of our big players i think (Tiote maybe) for big money. Ged rid of some dead wood, Smith, Loven, Perch. Couple of youngsters. And repeat for the next 5 years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi_D Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I'd love to finish 6/7th this year. Two or three really good additions in the summer. We will lose one of our big players i think (Tiote maybe) for big money. Ged rid of some dead wood, Smith, Loven, Perch. Couple of youngsters. And repeat for the next 5 years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawK Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 totally disagree with hawk's second ball theory, if only we had gone after the second ball, instead the middle 2 remained far too deep in order to stop the opposition in possession rather than pick up the second ball. What? That's exactly what I said lol. I think he means that we were allowing them to win the second ball and then trying to contest the next phase - i.e. when they attack us with the ball they just won. Ah Ok.. seriously? Without wanting to sound too chastising, who on earth would set their team up to just give the ball to the opposition and tell them to attack us, at home lol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 totally disagree with hawk's second ball theory, if only we had gone after the second ball, instead the middle 2 remained far too deep in order to stop the opposition in possession rather than pick up the second ball. What? That's exactly what I said lol. I think he means that we were allowing them to win the second ball and then trying to contest the next phase - i.e. when they attack us with the ball they just won. Ah Ok.. seriously? Without wanting to sound too chastising, who on earth would set their team up to just give the ball to the opposition and tell them to attack us, at home lol. the hope is that the ball will stick with the forwards. it didn't. several times on sunday ba was waving for the midfield to come in to challenge the second ball he had went for and it had dropped away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawK Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 totally disagree with hawk's second ball theory, if only we had gone after the second ball, instead the middle 2 remained far too deep in order to stop the opposition in possession rather than pick up the second ball. What? That's exactly what I said lol. I think he means that we were allowing them to win the second ball and then trying to contest the next phase - i.e. when they attack us with the ball they just won. Ah Ok.. seriously? Without wanting to sound too chastising, who on earth would set their team up to just give the ball to the opposition and tell them to attack us, at home lol. the hope is that the ball will stick with the forwards. it didn't. several times on sunday ba was waving for the midfield to come in to challenge the second ball he had went for and it had dropped away. Which comes full circle to many of the points I've made regarding Pardew's tactics in the past few pages, in summary to do with his inability to adapt or set up a team with a basic strategy that plays to the strengths of the players. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, entirely the opposite, but I've made those points quite a few times now I think I should just copy + paste =) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 totally disagree with hawk's second ball theory, if only we had gone after the second ball, instead the middle 2 remained far too deep in order to stop the opposition in possession rather than pick up the second ball. What? That's exactly what I said lol. I think he means that we were allowing them to win the second ball and then trying to contest the next phase - i.e. when they attack us with the ball they just won. Ah Ok.. seriously? Without wanting to sound too chastising, who on earth would set their team up to just give the ball to the opposition and tell them to attack us, at home lol. the hope is that the ball will stick with the forwards. it didn't. several times on sunday ba was waving for the midfield to come in to challenge the second ball he had went for and it had dropped away. Which comes full circle to many of the points I've made regarding Pardew's tactics in the past few pages, in summary to do with his inability to adapt or set up a team with a basic strategy that plays to the strengths of the players. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, entirely the opposite, but I've made those points quite a few times now I think I should just copy + paste =) many people have said about the lack of movement particularly from the middle of midfiled. some from as far back as the autumn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawK Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Can we agree to agree? lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifu Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 What would people expect from Pardew next season if we get 6th place this season? More of the same tbh. If we finish 6th this season, it will be seen as massive progress and one which we should really build on. With a few more decent signings (mainly in defence), we should be looking at challenging for the top 5/6. The core of the team has been pretty much secured for the near future and we do have a good set of players in the squad so all eyes will definitely be on Pardew. With a good pre-season (one that's better than the last one anyway), testing out new systems/formations (a change in philosophy basically), then I can see next season going well. [/optimism] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 If we qualify for Europe this season, i would like us just to be in the top 6 despite the extra european nights out. TBH why people defer in this thread is probably not the league position but the quality of the football. We all know good measured football that create more chances will eventually get you playing more consistently. My wish is we become a consistent team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 He went up in my estimation on Sunday. Showed he cared, and showed the willingness to change it and give Ben Arfa his chance. got it right seconf half for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wormy Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 He went up in my estimation on Sunday. Showed he cared, and showed the willingness to change it and give Ben Arfa his chance. got it right seconf half for me. As pleased as I was with that second half, it's whether he'll finally learn it for the long term for me tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiLvOR Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 He went up in my estimation on Sunday. Showed he cared, and showed the willingness to change it and give Ben Arfa his chance. got it right seconf half for me. As pleased as I was with that second half, it's whether he'll finally learn it for the long term for me tbh. This. Plenty of times for me Pardew should have learned from mistakes, for example playing a ridiculous high line against pace, yet he has repeated these offenses. Time will tell, I still think he's done a good job here though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 A high line has worked for us pretty well on occasion, like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I've been meaning to respond to this. You raise some very valid arguments, if I've missed any of them apologies: I agree with you that Pardew is limited. With respect to the oft-touted 'meticulous pre-match preparation', the squad have on numerous occasions been quoted as being pleased with his organisational skills, and whilst I find that very commendable, it's actually quite incriminating too. For all his planning and research, he has been unable to assert his authority over teams, highlight their weaknesses or emphasise our strengths. We've won (where we have won) mostly by nicked goals and without controlling play for more than twenty minutes per game. This suggests to me that despite his laudable organisational skills, he is for the most part unable to apply anything he learns and prise performances out of what are (for me) undeniably talented resources. We have, for most of the season, become difficult to turn over. Most of that was early season though if we're honest. Since that Man City match, I wouldn't call it "difficult to turn over" so much as quite lucky frankly. As usual, I will emphasise that good defending/keeping isn't luck, but when the opposition dictate the tempo and create more clear cut chances on a regular basis - I certainly don't think 'luck' doesn't play a part. That's just me, and I know it's a bit of a woolly argument - but games at Ewood, Molineux, OT, Anfield, Loftus Road and arguably others have been occasions where we've got more than our performance deserved - and but for better opposition finishing (as opposed to anything we did correctly) could easily have run away from us into Spurs (a) and Fulham (a) horror shows. I don't call that being 'difficult to turn over' although I would understand, if not agree, with the opposing viewpoint. Given the absence of key members of our side in recent outings, I feel it is slightly harsh to include fixtures such as Blackburn and QPR in this argument, but at times this season it is true we have failed to exert our dominance over opposition sides. This is a pitty given the strength of our side lies in the spine, in particular our failure to utilise Cabaye's talents in the final third have to count as a strike against Pardew. This isn't to say he hasn't developed any strengths at all. He has a very average defense looking organised and capable of keeping clean sheets, something we've previously struggled with. He has limited players such as Simpson, Perch, Taylor, Guthrie and Best looking competent at Premier League level while he has the entire team working hard off the ball. These are strengths that are very simple to overlook but have contributed to our success this season. David Moyes instilled all these qualities into his early Everon sides and they very quickly reaped the rewards. I think these qualities along with the ability of our core group of players have helped in making us a very difficult side to beat this season and while we have rode our luck at times, it certainly isn't a coincidence we keep grinding out results. It's also true we've been somewhat less solid since the injury to Taylor, but results such as those at Norwich (Colo and Tiote) and Spurs (Tiote and Cabaye) also resulted due to the absence of a two or three key players as opposed to just the one. Other scorelines such as those at Fulham have however manifested due to poor tactics but these have on the whole been rare. You can point to that one match, and not many others I'd wager. Even I feel rather harsh saying a broken clock is right twice a day, but it does feel rather apt here given the weight of supporting evidence in the opposing column! The reason I called him an idiot (other than post-match anger!) is because of long-term issues which have not been sufficiently rectified or even addressed. Among these include his ability to change things/react during 90 minutes, his proclivity to wait until things break before he changes anything (cf. Chelsea at home), his persistence with Obertan until he got injured (he might still be starting if he hadn't been ) and top-of-the-tree of my worries... the dogshit football we play 80% of the time. Even against weak opposition. Then there's how we cede momentum when we're on top. Wolves (h) was the first time we've been punished notably for it - but many, many people have been bleating on about the risks he has been running since the very first games in the season (Wolves (a), Everton (h) among others). These are examples off the top of my head - I worry how many 'warning games' I could dig out if I did any considered research. These are all long-term issues which seem to go over the top of his head. This strikes me as a much better gauge of his abilities than isolated matches. I try to look at progression and development. At the start of the season, I remember saying I'd be interested to see how he learns and adapts.. and that there's room for improvement for both the team and the manager. He hasn't shown much improvement, if I'm honest. If he'd shown even medium-sized strides in the right direction I'd be edified that the work-in-progress is a worthwhile exercise. I know great teams don't happen overnight and there is great merit in having tenures the length of Wenger, Ferguson etc... but not if you've backed Steve Bruce, McLeish. Patience with a manager, in and of itself, doesn't guarantee any decent yield for your time! I'm not saying Pardew is as bad as them, but I hope you see what I mean. It's now March, and Pardew is still alienating our best creative player while we continue to hoof from Krul to Cisse for a solid 45 minutes. That's daft in my book. We had to hit our season nadir today at half-time before he brought on HBA. As I said, that's desperation - not growth. The two key criticisms I've had of Pardew are the failure to play Ben Arfa and the inability to use Cabaye correctly. These have been long term problems that undeniably need ironing out, however they're hardly enough for me to claim Pardew has done below-par or even an average job. On the contrary, there are numerous examples of defined plans against certain opposition. Against Man United we doubled up on Rooney while simultaneously playing a high line in order to counter the threat of Hernandez, against Villa (away) we persisted in attempting to exploit the lack of Villa's pace in full back by getting the ball out wide as soon as possible, while more recently at Fulham our attempts to double up on both Murphy and Dempsey forced Jol to successfully change his formation (I'm talking about the initial plan as opposed to the poor response or lack of in changing it). Of course the issue appearing to cause most annoyance amongst fans at the moment is the football we've played. Recently it hasn't been pretty, until the second half of the mackem game we hadn't played particularly well since our first half at the Cottage. Of course the absence of key players is an issue but our football has generally been a mixed bag all season. We've gone from the very good (Mancs home, Villa away) to the average (Wigan home, Swansea home) to the damn right awful (Liverpool away, Wolves home). Our worst football seems to come when sides come at us and we go into contain mode. To cut a long story short we back off leaving the forwards isolated, with such a large gap between the midfield and the strikers our back line lump it forward at every opportunity. I think Pardew feels the need to do this due to weaknesses in the back line, particularly in full back (his obsession with hard working wingers supports this). While I don't personally with it I do understand it and as such I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until we've acquired a couple of more quality personnel in the back line. I also think another area hugely exaggerated as a weakness are Pardew's substitutions. They aren't always great but they aren't partiucalrly woeful either. Numerous times he's brought on Perch or Obertan to good effect. In our short Leage Cup run he won us games with a series of decent substitutions. He rarely gets it wrong and if there is a criticism of his changes it's that he leaves it too late on occasion. I'll say it again I believe Pardew is an average manager but there's been more than enough progress and improvement this season for me to feel cautiously optimistic about the rest of the campaign as well as the next. For the above reasons, I don't think I am being especially harsh. Maybe I'm playing up to the 'delusional Mag' but I'm willing to run that gauntlet. In terms of personnel, even accounting for our poor squad depth, we are top seven minimum IMO (on the strength of our first-team core/relatively injury-free season). Even taking into account that we only have 3 CBs. Draw what conclusions you will over the strength of the league, but I do think that is true for 2011/12. As ever, I sincerely hope he improves because it seems for better or worse he'll be here for a while. I believe a big difference in our opinions is that you have a lot more faith in the quality of our squad than I do. In my view, we have a core of very good players (Krul, Colo, Tiote, Cabate, Ba), some who are still finding their way (Santon and Cisse) and the rest are average to dross. Frequently we've had to call on Perch, Taylor or Best who are lower Premier League standard at best. While it's entirely realistic we should be rising above the mid-table scramble without anything particularly special going on at the helm the fact we've pulled away with sides such as Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool (who have deeper, more quality squads) goes to show what a good job Pardew has done and although our football is very hit and miss there has been enough improvement this campaign for me to feel cautiously optimistic about our future under Pardew. Cracking post Bit tired after work/having dins, but high-level response (still in work mode, as you can see): You mount a really good case for the defence. Quite funnily (well, to my dry sense of humour tonight), you feel our divergence in opinions might stem from me believing our core players to be better than you think them to be - I feel perhaps you underrate our secondary players. 'Average to dross' seems harsh to me. Simpson, Williamson, Raylor, Guthrie are clearly not our best players - but with Newcastle those who aren't our best players always seem to be cast as 'championship or lower league level' instead. We polarise our opinions on players so much. I would say they are midtable players if I aggregate their various strengths and weaknesses. I would also probably point to our teams of yesteryear which flew with the ilk of Griffin, Hughes, OB1, Bramble, Dabizaz... I know you've already conceded Pardew isn't SBR-league, and i don't mean to imply that I expect Pardew to do what SBR did - but it does indicate to me that the idea that players who aren't our Bellamy/Robert/Solano (or now Ba/Tiote/Krul/Colo) can function just fine among a strong core of players who are flying high. The football. You and I seem to look back at the season differently. Perhaps I articulated it poorly - but I wasn't talking about QPR and Blackburn alone. I mean the whole season. I mean 90 minute performances. I can think of maybe five? You're 100% spot on about the Man Utd and Aston Villa games. I was exceptionally proud of that away performance - still annoyed/flabbergasted we left with only a point. As I recall, Raylor fluffed the same ball about a million times after Gutierrez pulled his markers away from him. I concede that point - I lost the "wager" about you finding other examples. As a parting shot on this issue, I'd say these three instances have been exceptions rather than the norm though. Pardews subs are okay. Although his (mis?)use of Samoebi earlier this season was frustrating. Mixed bag re: subs. Think that Spurs game from last year when they equalised in the last few minutes really impacted on Pardew. He seems so disinterested in stretching leads/killing games. We did lose our heads pouring forward in that Spurs game, but... we won't face a side of Spurs' counter-attacking prowess every time. Pardew has not appreciated this, and it has effected his subs too. Sometimes I've thought Perch was a good option - sometimes it's been an incredulous choice. Don't see enough encouraging signs, myself. Can do nowt but hope and wait that you're right. Would love to see us play better football this season, or at least a few more glimpses. His 'edge of your seat football' advertising PR at the beginning of the season has been a really unwise move. His latest 'front foot fast brand' or whatever too. He seems really disingenuous and, IMO, patronising to what can be a knowledgeable set of fans in sections. He was earlier in the season asking for bigger crowds too with the promise of good football on show (before Wigan, or am I making that up?). Would love to see him start delivering on pledges he makes, or short of that - shutting up a bit more and being a bit honest in his interviews - even if it means he isn't so bloody cheery all the time Should also stop talking about sovereign states How the fuck is it 8pm. Edit: Erm, oops. I'm too tired to even fix it. I'm gonna watch the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiLvOR Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 A high line has worked for us pretty well on occasion, like. Against pace? When? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawK Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 A high line has worked for us pretty well on occasion, like. Against pace? When? whoosh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorJ_01 Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 A high line against Arsenal would be the funniest thing I've ever seen. Not that anyone is suggesting it, like Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiLvOR Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 A high line has worked for us pretty well on occasion, like. Against pace? When? whoosh. Fuck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPERTOON Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Refused to comment on MON in his presser this morning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Refused to comment on MON in his presser this morning. Good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Do we normally have a Wednesday press conference ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPERTOON Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Do we normally have a Wednesday press conference ? He was giving interviews to the chronicle i think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wormy Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Do we normally have a Wednesday press conference ? He was giving interviews to the chronicle i think. Nah, preparing for the pre-Europa League pressers next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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