Guest andyburn Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Win a World Cup. 30 shots and didn't score against the likes of Korea, Greece and Mexico. Not saying he isn't a good player, but as a striker you have to score goals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest palnese Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Win a World Cup. 30 shots and didn't score against the likes of Korea, Greece and Mexico. Not saying he isn't a good player, but as a striker you have to score goals. He just scored 50-something goals for Barcelona. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 He's also not a striker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Win a World Cup. 30 shots and didn't score against the likes of Korea, Greece and Mexico. Not saying he isn't a good player, but as a striker you have to score goals. :dowiespin: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guinness_fiend Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Win a World Cup. 30 shots and didn't score against the likes of Korea, Greece and Mexico. Not saying he isn't a good player, but as a striker you have to score goals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snrub Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 100 goals in 2 seasons is pretty poor tbf. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begbie Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Maradona is the greatest for me still, he won the 86 WC almost on his own. If Messi starts performing for Argentina and bring home a WC title like Maradona did, then we can start talking about him. Think my top 3 greatest would be: 1. Maradona 2. Pele 3. Zidane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Good article that Tooj. Every kid with an interest in football will know the name of Pele. In 50 years time kids will still know the name of Pele. Messi is undoubtedly a great footballer, the best of his generation and without doubt one of the best of all-time. But Pele is a God of the game and always will be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Maradona is the greatest for me still, he won the 86 WC almost on his own. If Messi starts performing for Argentina and bring home a WC title like Maradona did, then we can start talking about him. Think my top 3 greatest would be: 1. Maradona 2. Pele 3. Zidane I disagree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberto2005 Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I think the whole 'If you haven't played in a world cup winning team' you can't be classed as the best is complete bullshit, Messi could and has tore almost every single defence put infront of him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begbie Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Maradona is the greatest for me still, he won the 86 WC almost on his own. If Messi starts performing for Argentina and bring home a WC title like Maradona did, then we can start talking about him. Think my top 3 greatest would be: 1. Maradona 2. Pele 3. Zidane I disagree. Nice to know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begbie Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I think the whole 'If you haven't played in a world cup winning team' you can't be classed as the best is complete bullshit, Messi could and has tore almost every single defence put infront of him. Messi is maybe playing for the best team in the world atm, and I cant see him joining another club either. The big question about Messi is how good/great would he be for a side were he didnt have 10 world class players around him, to give him movement and space. For Argentina he hasnt been able to dominate as much as he has done for Barcelona, thats why I wont put him with the greatest, but i would put him in the greatest team of all time I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginola Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 He plays a different role for Argentina, which is why he isn't as effective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Good article that Tooj. Every kid with an interest in football will know the name of Pele. In 50 years time kids will still know the name of Pele. Messi is undoubtedly a great footballer, the best of his generation and without doubt one of the best of all-time. But Pele is a God of the game and always will be. Exactly, there can be talks about Maradona, Garrincha, Cruyff, Messi, Ronaldo, CRonaldo, Zidane, Platini, Beckenbauer, Zico, Romario, Baggio but no one will ever be as big as Pele, he's the step above all of them. I have no doubts Messi has the talent to one day be up there, but so did Ronaldo and Zidane and they never really reached that magical level. People talk about how Messi plays in a modern game where its so much harder because of the level and speed of the game. But people tend to forget that Pele played under an era where he was brutally kicked every 2 minutes. He had no protection, nowadays the referee protects players from being physically murdered back then they didn't. Pele had to leave a World Cup (his only without winning it) because he was so brutally taken care off by defenders and the referees didn't care. I can only imagine how that World Cup would've looked like had he not been injured by the Bulgarian and Portuguese defenders. For you who haven't watched those games, you should look, even Parana (right back during that World Cup) has personally told me and relatives about how it was even worse than what you saw on TV. Maybe Pele would've won 4 World Cups and been even bigger than what he is had he been protected by referees. Messi is without a doubt the best right now, but to start comparing him with the greats is still silly. People say 'why does he have to win with the national team' and so on, well the answer is really easy, he has to prove that he can win outside his comfort zone at Barcelona. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Good article that Tooj. Every kid with an interest in football will know the name of Pele. In 50 years time kids will still know the name of Pele. Messi is undoubtedly a great footballer, the best of his generation and without doubt one of the best of all-time. But Pele is a God of the game and always will be. Exactly, there can be talks about Maradona, Garrincha, Cruyff, Messi, Ronaldo, CRonaldo, Zidane, Platini, Beckenbauer, Zico, Romario, Baggio but no one will ever be as big as Pele, he's the step above all of them. I have no doubts Messi has the talent to one day be up there, but so did Ronaldo and Zidane and they never really reached that magical level. People talk about how Messi plays in a modern game where its so much harder because of the level and speed of the game. But people tend to forget that Pele played under an era where he was brutally kicked every 2 minutes. He had no protection, nowadays the referee protects players from being physically murdered back then they didn't. Pele had to leave a World Cup (his only without winning it) because he was so brutally taken care off by defenders and the referees didn't care. I can only imagine how that World Cup would've looked like had he not been injured by the Bulgarian and Portuguese defenders. For you who haven't watched those games, you should look, even Parana (right back during that World Cup) has personally told me and relatives about how it was even worse than what you saw on TV. Maybe Pele would've won 4 World Cups and been even bigger than what he is had he been protected by referees. Messi is without a doubt the best right now, but to start comparing him with the greats is still silly. People say 'why does he have to win with the national team' and so on, well the answer is really easy, he has to prove that he can win outside his comfort zone at Barcelona. Exactly! I don't get why it is so difficult to understand why people want to see Messi perform outside of Barcelona without getting back tiring excuses oh "he plays in a different position", "his team mates are not good enough", "Maradona is a lousy manager" etc It doesn't help Messi's case that he is playing in a Barcelona team many consider the best in the last 10-20 years. A true legend will shine despite difficult circumstances. Messi has done wonders at Barcelona, but every time he leaves his pampered comfort zone, his level drops a few notches....let's see what happens in this Copa. Even C. Ronaldo has proven that he can excel in more than just one team and in different countries with different style of play. Messi is Barcelona's star player (one of) and at the moment that's all he is, would put him fourth in all time ranking just behind Zidane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Exactly, there can be talks about Maradona, Garrincha, Cruyff, Messi, Ronaldo, CRonaldo, Zidane, Platini, Beckenbauer, Zico, Romario, Baggio Spot the odd one out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Good article that Tooj. Every kid with an interest in football will know the name of Pele. In 50 years time kids will still know the name of Pele. Messi is undoubtedly a great footballer, the best of his generation and without doubt one of the best of all-time. But Pele is a God of the game and always will be. Exactly, there can be talks about Maradona, Garrincha, Cruyff, Messi, Ronaldo, CRonaldo, Zidane, Platini, Beckenbauer, Zico, Romario, Baggio but no one will ever be as big as Pele, he's the step above all of them. I have no doubts Messi has the talent to one day be up there, but so did Ronaldo and Zidane and they never really reached that magical level. People talk about how Messi plays in a modern game where its so much harder because of the level and speed of the game. But people tend to forget that Pele played under an era where he was brutally kicked every 2 minutes. He had no protection, nowadays the referee protects players from being physically murdered back then they didn't. Pele had to leave a World Cup (his only without winning it) because he was so brutally taken care off by defenders and the referees didn't care. I can only imagine how that World Cup would've looked like had he not been injured by the Bulgarian and Portuguese defenders. For you who haven't watched those games, you should look, even Parana (right back during that World Cup) has personally told me and relatives about how it was even worse than what you saw on TV. Maybe Pele would've won 4 World Cups and been even bigger than what he is had he been protected by referees. Messi is without a doubt the best right now, but to start comparing him with the greats is still silly. People say 'why does he have to win with the national team' and so on, well the answer is really easy, he has to prove that he can win outside his comfort zone at Barcelona. The ball back in Pele's day was also a lot heavier and less dynamic. Today it would be the equiverlent of playing with a small medicine ball. The boots and pitches were also different. How Pele could manipulate that ball to do whatever he wanted, in those boots, on those pitches, against those defenders, goes beyond mere skill or ability. Today your average to even decent footballer is trained or coached to be what he is. Pele and his like were born footballers. I have no doubt were Pele to be playing today, he'd eclipse them all. When you watch footage of him in action its like everything around him is being played in slow motion while he is playing in real-time. Most of today's tricks and skills all stem from Pele - the games' first global superstar and greatest ever exponent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Exactly, there can be talks about Maradona, Garrincha, Cruyff, Messi, Ronaldo, CRonaldo, Zidane, Platini, Beckenbauer, Zico, Romario, Baggio Spot the odd one out. Of that lot I obviously don't believe CRonaldo to be a part of that level, but many in here do so I put him in there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Bingo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Bingo. Exactly, there can be talks about Maradona, Garrincha, Cruyff, Messi, Ronaldo, CRonaldo, Zidane, Platini, Beckenbauer, Zico, Romario, Baggio Spot the odd one out. Of that lot I obviously don't believe CRonaldo to be a part of that level, but many in here do so I put him in there. Yet he has proven himself to be able to excel in more than one team, something Messi is unable/unwilling to do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Unwilling because he's perfectly happy where he is. Ronaldo shouldn't get extra points because he got tired of British weather. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Unwilling because he's perfectly happy where he is. Ronaldo shouldn't get extra points because he got tired of British weather. That's right he left because of the weather Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Pele also benefited for the fact hat his talents went on show just as the world was able to watch TV - not necessarily live, or in colour, but almost all his big games went round the world Same as Ali really.................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 A counter example for the "international team performance is irrelevant" is Zidane. He nearly won the WC2006 for France by himself despite having a poor squad and a shit coach. I am pretty sure if Zidane won the WC2006, he would be considered as similar level as the two greats. Messi is a sensational player but unless he can do similar wonders at international level he will not be considered as the greatest player, not even close to Pele and Maradona. The problem is, not only these two legends made the national team the World champion, even the likes of Beckenbauer and Zidane have done that before. There is a question that Messi cannot answer: why did those legends can turn their team into World champion but he cannot? You can blame his teammates, his coach, the tactics, whatsoever, but the question still exists, because there were precedents. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Nguyen Van Falk Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Always gives me a giggle when people say 'the ball was the equivalent of a medicine ball' or words to that affect. Fucking twats. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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