Village Idiot Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Don't see how you can relegate Maradona into some kind of second tier... he single-handedly dominated pretty much every game he played in for a long time, carried his country to the World Cup, carried an ok Napoli side to the scudetto. In terms of having a freakish impact and towering above his peers, he was every bit as dominant as Pele. And if we now also include pop culture impact in gauging a footballer's "greatness", you can hardly deny El Diego's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I don't think that's true at all. If Pele was the absolute, untouchable best and the undisputed icon and always will be then these debates wouldn't happen and keep happening. It's not the same as it is with Michael Jordan, Valentino Rossi or perhaps even Tiger Woods. In those cases there's barely a debate, it's almost a consensus. Football is more like it is with boxing, everyone thinks they're right about who would have beaten who and who is the greatest of all time. Neither boxing nor football have someone like Michael Jordan that's almost undisputedly the best of all time. Imo there's a very good chance that Messi can be that icon, because no one else has been it yet. Its simple, for me Messi based on ability is one of the very best to have ever played the game, up there with Pele, no doubts about it. As a great though, I don't think anyone will ever topple Pele. They may outscore him, win more etc. but no name will ever be bigger than Pele's. Just look at this very debate, 40 years or so after he was in his prime, with most never having seen him play live, and still we cannot escape his name, despite what we are seeing with Messi which is staggering what he is achieving and how he is playing. You don't think people will be calling Messi the greatest player ever 40 years from now? I don't, no. Not unless he goes onto win 3 world cups or something. I'm not for one minute saying that is the benchmark, because its not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Kid Icarus, you're actually typing non-sense there. In the basketball world, even in our own forum, we have had discussions about whether Jordan was the absolute best. It's nowhere near being a consensus. Also taking Valentino Rossi and Tiger Woods into such a discussions shows a lack of recognition to that both of them are stars at sports competing individually. I mean, in football you have to take so much into consideration and the same goes for Jordan, and basketball. Okay, no need to get your knickers in a twist. It was in response to HTT re: being the best AND the biggest icon within a sport. Jordan, Rossi and possibly Woods and are THE undisputed icons of their sports, that much is obvious. As far as this team vs individual sport goes, I'm sorry but you're dead wrong. Moto GP is a team sport and although Rossi showed his individual brilliance by going to a losing team and winning, you could argue that that is why he is the best (the same argument comes up with Maradona '86 WC). You could also look at someone like Vettel and question (but never answer) where he would be outside of Red Bull. Of course it's a team sport. As for Jordan, I'll back off a bit there. Im not big on basketball, but have friends that are and every single one will pontificate about this player and that, but all of them either talk about him being the best or there's almost an admission that he is. It might be a generation thing, I've just never heard, seen or read a debate, it's always been Jordan, Jordan, Jordan in my experience. As an icon in sport though, he's to basketball what Mickey is to Disney imo. Football doesn't have that person and I don't just mean commercially. Maradona and Pele are always the two talked of, Cruiyff and Best too. All are massive icons in their own right . None are undisputed as the best or most iconic in football imo. This generation will predominantly talk of Messi as the best ever...at this precise moment. He's 25, there's more than enough time for him to be undisputedly the best, but he will have to do it all to get there. Everything, all of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I don't think that's true at all. If Pele was the absolute, untouchable best and the undisputed icon and always will be then these debates wouldn't happen and keep happening. It's not the same as it is with Michael Jordan, Valentino Rossi or perhaps even Tiger Woods. In those cases there's barely a debate, it's almost a consensus. Football is more like it is with boxing, everyone thinks they're right about who would have beaten who and who is the greatest of all time. Neither boxing nor football have someone like Michael Jordan that's almost undisputedly the best of all time. Imo there's a very good chance that Messi can be that icon, because no one else has been it yet. Its simple, for me Messi based on ability is one of the very best to have ever played the game, up there with Pele, no doubts about it. As a great though, I don't think anyone will ever topple Pele. They may outscore him, win more etc. but no name will ever be bigger than Pele's. Just look at this very debate, 40 years or so after he was in his prime, with most never having seen him play live, and still we cannot escape his name, despite what we are seeing with Messi which is staggering what he is achieving and how he is playing. You don't think people will be calling Messi the greatest player ever 40 years from now? I don't, no. Not unless he goes onto win 3 world cups or something. I'm not for one minute saying that is the benchmark, because its not. Surprised to hear it. I think even if he retired now he's made a half-convincing case for having been the best player ever. I think people will rhapsodize about him and Cronaldo for as long as I live Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I don't think that's true at all. If Pele was the absolute, untouchable best and the undisputed icon and always will be then these debates wouldn't happen and keep happening. It's not the same as it is with Michael Jordan, Valentino Rossi or perhaps even Tiger Woods. In those cases there's barely a debate, it's almost a consensus. Football is more like it is with boxing, everyone thinks they're right about who would have beaten who and who is the greatest of all time. Neither boxing nor football have someone like Michael Jordan that's almost undisputedly the best of all time. Imo there's a very good chance that Messi can be that icon, because no one else has been it yet. Its simple, for me Messi based on ability is one of the very best to have ever played the game, up there with Pele, no doubts about it. As a great though, I don't think anyone will ever topple Pele. They may outscore him, win more etc. but no name will ever be bigger than Pele's. Just look at this very debate, 40 years or so after he was in his prime, with most never having seen him play live, and still we cannot escape his name, despite what we are seeing with Messi which is staggering what he is achieving and how he is playing. You don't think people will be calling Messi the greatest player ever 40 years from now? I don't, no. Not unless he goes onto win 3 world cups or something. I'm not for one minute saying that is the benchmark, because its not. What is the big difference between us still mentioning Pele and still mentioning Maradona? I don't see the gap in the impact that both made. FWIW I think if people are talking about Messi as the best ever now at 25 and without 3 world cups and with the likes of Pele and Maradona for company, then he's obviously made enough of an impact to be talked of in 40 years time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Kid Icarus, you're actually typing non-sense there. In the basketball world, even in our own forum, we have had discussions about whether Jordan was the absolute best. It's nowhere near being a consensus. Also taking Valentino Rossi and Tiger Woods into such a discussions shows a lack of recognition to that both of them are stars at sports competing individually. I mean, in football you have to take so much into consideration and the same goes for Jordan, and basketball. Okay, no need to get your knickers in a twist. It was in response to HTT re: being the best AND the biggest icon within a sport. Jordan, Rossi and possibly Woods and are THE undisputed icons of their sports, that much is obvious. As far as this team vs individual sport goes, I'm sorry but you're dead wrong. Moto GP is a team sport and although Rossi showed his individual brilliance by going to a losing team and winning, you could argue that that is why he is the best (the same argument comes up with Maradona '86 WC). You could also look at someone like Vettel and question (but never answer) where he would be outside of Red Bull. Of course it's a team sport. As for Jordan, I'll back off a bit there. Im not big on basketball, but have friends that are and every single one will pontificate about this player and that, but all of them either talk about him being the best or there's almost an admission that he is. It might be a generation thing, I've just never heard, seen or read a debate, it's always been Jordan, Jordan, Jordan in my experience. As an icon in sport though, he's to basketball what Mickey is to Disney imo. Football doesn't have that person and I don't just mean commercially. Maradona and Pele are always the two talked of, Cruiyff and Best too. All are massive icons in their own right . None are undisputed as the best or most iconic in football imo. This generation will predominantly talk of Messi as the best ever...at this precise moment. He's 25, there's more than enough time for him to be undisputedly the best, but he will have to do it all to get there. Everything, all of it. Fair enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Don't see how you can relegate Maradona into some kind of second tier... he single-handedly dominated pretty much every game he played in for a long time, carried his country to the World Cup, carried an ok Napoli side to the scudetto. In terms of having a freakish impact and towering above his peers, he was every bit as dominant as Pele. I'd put Maradona above Messi, but below Pele. Just don't want to go into a debate of Messi v Maradona after days of Pele v Messi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Brazilian > everyone else. There you go Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 No, Pele > everyone else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 I'm probably missing something here as well, but didn't Pele score over 80 goals a few times in a season? Were they in friendlies and that's why FIFA doesn't recognise him as the holder of this record Messi has now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 I'm probably missing something here as well, but didn't Pele score over 80 goals a few times in a season? Were they in friendlies and that's why FIFA doesn't recognise him as the holder of this record Messi has now? Fifa refuses to recognise anyone as holder of such a record, I believe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Yeah, "most goals in a natural year" isn't really an official record, just a stat that people/media brought up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snrub Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I'm probably missing something here as well, but didn't Pele score over 80 goals a few times in a season? Were they in friendlies and that's why FIFA doesn't recognise him as the holder of this record Messi has now? 54 of them were in training, when he waited behind an did extra training on his own. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
54 Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Just seen he's signed a new deal keeping him there until 2018. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Roger Kint Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Just seen he's signed a new deal keeping him there until 2018. According to the radio newsreader a few minutes ago this means its now unlikely that we will ever see him play in the Premier League. As if anyone in the country ever gave this more than a 1% chance before the new contract Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Just seen he's signed a new deal keeping him there until 2018. Ashley-esque length to that contract Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanSkÃrare Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 So that's one less player we'll be in with a chance of signing in January. Pards out tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wormy Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 So that's one less player we'll be in with a chance of signing in January. Pards out tbh. Don't think Pardew can be blamed for a player's simple lack of ambition tbh. Just another Steve Harper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 http://www7.pic-upload.de/18.12.12/o395jyflr9g.gif :lol: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 :lol: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenham Mag Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 The whole thing in here: http://www.nma.tv/lionel-messi-barcelonas-goal-machine-breaks-gerd-mullers-40year-record/ Those NMA guys really overdo the acid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Fuck Godfrey Chitalu Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Bah, we just need to arrange a couple charity friendlies for Christmas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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