triggs Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 So basically what you're saying is that the players that e can say played shite are the ones that you are deciding by some arbitrary rule? They have a fair few brilliant players and most of them played well, hence how they almost won it. The post I was quoting said they have some very good players on paper. I said that their best players on paper apart from Messi, Mascherano and Zabaleta were poor such as Aguero, Higuain and Di Maria. I agree that the likes of Garay, Rojo, Demichelis, Biglia etc. played well Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 How can you say Higuan especially is better than Garay? Anyway it doesn't really matter, but Aguero was injured for half of it so it's slightly unfair to say his was poor, same with Di Maria who actually played well imo for at least 2 of the group games. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 How can you say Higuan especially is better than Garay? Anyway it doesn't really matter, but Aguero was injured for half of it so it's slightly unfair to say his was poor, same with Di Maria who actually played well imo for at least 2 of the group games. I would have thought people would have rated Higuain above Garay before the tournament started, no? Higuain had the likes of Arsenal and Napoli battling for him last summer while Garay has gone to Russia this summer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Weird comparison. Higuain looked ungainly at best, mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 How can you say Higuan especially is better than Garay? Anyway it doesn't really matter, but Aguero was injured for half of it so it's slightly unfair to say his was poor, same with Di Maria who actually played well imo for at least 2 of the group games. I would have thought people would have rated Higuain above Garay before the tournament started, no? Higuain had the likes of Arsenal and Napoli battling for him last summer while Garay has gone to Russia this summer What's the point in this? Garay is a top class CB while Higuain is a top class ST. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Aguero might have a pass for the latter stages but he was really poor even in the group when he was supposedly fit for action, albeit after a season of niggles. I didn't see the Iran game but his performance against Bosnia was absolutely awful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segun Oluwaniyi Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi looked tired throughout the entire of the season, imo, and is back playing high pressure football at the highest level in little more than a month. He has carried so much on him the last 6+ years. Fatigue is very natural. How can you say Higuan especially is better than Garay? Anyway it doesn't really matter, but Aguero was injured for half of it so it's slightly unfair to say his was poor, same with Di Maria who actually played well imo for at least 2 of the group games. Their attacking players outside of Messi generally just did not perform well in this tournament at all, given the standard they set at the club level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Failed on the biggest stage there is. It's easy to perform when you have Xavi and Iniesta and who not passing you the ball. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Away Toon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi been regularly sick on the pitch during matches tells you something up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi been regularly sick on the pitch during matches tells you something up. Shouldn't have taken his growth hormones. On a serious note though, I do wonder what's wrong, it's not the first time either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi is a great club player for Barca - he's in a top side - but for me he is just a turbo version of Peter Beardsley, who he slightly resembles. Scores more goals than Beardsley did, but no way is he in the class of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc. Very good player at international level but not a genuine great for me....just to balance the books, I don't believe Neymar is either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderson Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Also, is it just me or does Messi just look plain knackered? Not one for hyperbole but when fit, he plays virtually every minute of every single game. Year after year. Especially under Guardiola, it felt like he never, ever got subbed. Add in international commitments too and you've got to wonder whether he's simply worn out and whether it's all catching up with his body a bit? Whatever it is, he's not the same Messi of 2008-2013. Something's changed, just hope it's not permanent. Genuinely think the Messi of two/three year ago would've won that tonight. Hopefully he just needs an extended break, but he doesn't look anywhere near his best at the minute. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi is a great club player for Barca - he's in a top side - but for me he is just a turbo version of Peter Beardsley, who he slightly resembles. Scores more goals than Beardsley did, but no way is he in the class of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc. Very good player at international level but not a genuine great for me....just to balance the books, I don't believe Neymar is either. To me there's no question about him being up there with those names (without never really seeing them play). Regardless of his WC showings so far and in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 One of the greatest, but definitely not the best ever. Kinda done and dusted in my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 He still has another try to emulate Maradona and his 86 campaign. This year he managed to at least get Maradona and his 90 campaign emulated. Very similar in comparison they are too. Both not at their best yet still somehow managing to carry Argentina to a final defeat against the Germans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi is a great club player for Barca - he's in a top side - but for me he is just a turbo version of Peter Beardsley, who he slightly resembles. Scores more goals than Beardsley did, but no way is he in the class of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc. Very good player at international level but not a genuine great for me....just to balance the books, I don't believe Neymar is either. To me there's no question about him being up there with those names (without never really seeing them play). Regardless of his WC showings so far and in the future. If you had seen them play, you would know what I mean....I stick by my view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidAK Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 He's absolutely the best there's ever been for me. Not being able to single-handedly take down the footballing machine that is this German side in a 7-game tournament doesn't mean shit imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Messi is a great club player for Barca - he's in a top side - but for me he is just a turbo version of Peter Beardsley, who he slightly resembles. Scores more goals than Beardsley did, but no way is he in the class of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc. Very good player at international level but not a genuine great for me....just to balance the books, I don't believe Neymar is either. To me there's no question about him being up there with those names (without never really seeing them play). Regardless of his WC showings so far and in the future. If you had seen them play, you would know what I mean....I stick by my view. I agree. I would have him on Cruyff's level mind. But not as high as the two others . It's hardly criticism of Messi to say he's not quite as good as the best and second best of all time though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Cruyff didn't need to win a World Cup to generally be considered the 3rd greatest player of all time. And neither does Messi to be listed with them. They both came up against a fantastic German side, and couldn't quite get it over the line in the King's parlance (although the Netherlands really should have won it in 74). In basketball, Charles Barkley never won an NBA championship, but he was without doubt one of the greatest players of all time. Some people get so stuck on this silverware thing. It takes more conditions to win, not the least of which is the team you go up against in the final. FFS, Inzaghi won the World Cup with Italy. That's great in all for a forward who can barely walk four steps without falling down, but nobody on this side of sanity would put him in the same league with Messi. Messi did not look himself throughout the World Cup. Only glimpses. I won't say he's the greatest ever, but I won't use winning a World Cup as my metric. Messi, the dour little hunchback that he is, is still one of the greatest players I have ever seen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miercoles Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 ^^^^ I agree with all of this, but you can't deny that the little fellow missed an opportunity to end this debate once and for all today. Losing in this final (and playing poorly by his standards) doesn't tarnish his legacy imo, but playing well and winning could have cemented it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotus Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Yesterday was the biggest game of his life. Might be his only chance to play in a WC final and he was a passenger for over 110 minutes of it. Never showed up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themanupstairs Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Yesterday was the biggest game of his life. Might be his only chance to play in a WC final and he was a passenger for over 110 minutes of it. Never showed up. Yup. I thought it was quite upsetting that he didn't even seem to be trying. Germany were there for the taking, and if it wasn't for the ridiculously overrated Higuain's stunning miss, Argentina would have won it at a canter. Messi only seemed to realize this after Germany had scored. That last ditch free-kick was a complete embarrassment IMO, and he showed that it was all about him rather than the team. Instead of going for goal (and then trying to beat Neuer), he should have put it into the box giving the likes of Garay and Demichelis the chance to make something happen. He's very much up there, but he is NOT better than Maradona or Pele. He's in the second tier along with Cruyff, Zidane etc... He's had a glittering club career, and there's no denying that he's the best living footballer of his generation, but last night was a bitter disappointment from his point of view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 IMO he hasn't been as good as some have made out on here and the team isn't as poor as is being made out. Furthermore, I don't think Messi's the type of player who makes others beside him play better. I don't think any of his attacking team mates at club or international level perform to their optimal level alongside him. In this tournament her Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 This for me ranks comfortably below Ronaldo '98 and Zidane '06. Which is disappointing because he's a better player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 It's crazy how his legacy and who he'll be remembered as (at this stage) was dependent upon a chance you would have expected him to bury and Higuan and Polacio being shit. Yet that's exactly how it'll be and it's hard to argue with. He still has two World Cups left in him imo, but he'll be extremely lucky to get a better chance than that. He's the best footballer that I've seen in my life and he always will be tbh, so it really is now just a case of him doing it at that very highest level of Pele and Maradona. I'm not sure that I'm a fan of him being a bit of a lone wolf though, he just doesn't seem that arsed about football anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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