Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Tooj]

I also still maintain that the older Messi gets, the more of a "playmaker" he'll become.

 

I think people forget how young he is, especially when you compare what he'd achieved at the same age to what Zidane had.

[Tooj]

http://i55.tinypic.com/154zmma.jpg

 

 

[Guest guinness_fiend]

I've seen Messi get plenty of assists off corners, he doesn't really attempt crosses in open play but how of Barca's attacking players do? (bar Xavi).

 

As has been said, some of his passes for assists are superb, I wouldn't say he's one-dimensional at all.

 

This.  Those who suggest that he's remotely one-dimensional obviously don't watch Barca week-in, week-out.  Which should be a crime given that pretty much every game they play is broadcast live on Sky/ESPN.  His passing ability is staggering.

[midds]

Incedental I know but Xavi is close to, if not already better, than Zidane.

[Ronaldo]

I didn't see a great deal of Zidane at club level until the last 3 seasons of his career. What I will say is that nothing I ever saw of him leads me to believe he was quite as good as the genius that is Xavi.

[Mr. Snrub]

Agree with the last 2 posts.

 

Over the last 5 years Xavi has been consistently better than Zidane ever was.  He's also carried teams to win everything possible at both domestic and international level.  Certainly the best central midfielder I've ever seen.

[tmonkey]

 

So the point I'm trying to make here, if any, is that whilst Messi is probably the most effective solo attacking outlet ever (at club level) and certainly the best player in the world, a phenomenal talent, he's by no means a complete player, which is what Zidane and Maradona were, nor have his achievements matched what some of those he's being compared to have done, even if what he's done already is damn impressive for a 23 year old. If there is someone to compare him to, I'd argue that the original Ronaldo at his peak would serve as a good comparison, even if he was an out-n-out striker, as they're both explosive attacking players with great pace on the ball and the ability to change direction at the drop of a shoulder (and I'd also argue the original Ronaldo at his peak was the better player too).

 

I fully agree with you that Messi is not a complete player, but by that line of reasoning, neither were Zidane. If Messi lack what you describe then surely Zidane must lack the pace/agression/goalscoring virtues that messi possess? Not trying to be clever or anything just genuinly want you to elaborate on what you think constitutes being a "complete player"?

 

Well, I think the context may have been lost here (or I needed to be more specific). By "player" of course I mean attacking creative player. Zidane, to state the obvious, wasn't a striker, or a central midfileder, or a centreback, or a goalkeeper, so I'd not expect him to have attributes that (imo) would be relevant to those positions. Instead I'm calling him a complete player within the context of him being an attacking/creative playmaker. Of course, that's just my opinion of what a "complete player" is, and I'm sure others would argue different things as to what constitutes a "complete player".

 

To back up what I'm saying, I'd argue that imo Jonathan Woodgate was a "complete defender" when he was at his peak for us, or Baresi was for Milan. That doesn't mean they could dribble with the ball out of defence like Lucio, or play wonderfully accurate crossfield diagonal passes like Pique often does today, or burst forward like Cafu/Carlos/Zanetti/etc, but that they were exceptional in all areas relevant to their position as centrebacks (leadership, reading, positioning, tackling, whatever).

 

Hence, within that context, the "complete player" aspect for me means the ability to do all the things required of them for their position. As stated, Zidane and Maradona could dribble past players, turn them, trick opponents, flick the ball on with exceptional accuracy, play perfectly weighted through balls or ranged passes on a regular basis, shoot with good accuracy/technique from various ranges, control the ball adeptly under intense pressure, and take excellent set pieces. Although Messi is better than Zidane at a couple of those things, mainly dribbling with extreme bursts of pace, I think he's lacking in other areas by comparison. That's not to say he can't play a peach of a pass now and again, but that he'd need many attempts to get it right because it's not his natural strength.

 

If I can use an analogy without meaning to be condescending, I'd like to use Rooney vs Beardsley. I'm not comparing the two players at all here or looking to argue who was better/more complete/etc, rather I just want to focus on one attribute to highlight the difference between "good ability" and natural ability. Lets say in a fictional world both of them were in the same position on the pitch with the ball at feet, 40 yards from goal, in a match against the same quality opposition who's defence are playing a slightly high line but with the keeper off his line. In front of them is Andy Cole, just about to peal off and make a darting run off the shoulder of the last defender. The through ball needed to put Andy in on goal would have to be perfectly weighted/flighted with the correct type of spin for the surface to avoid it running through to the keeper, as well as deadly accurate to avoid being intercepted by the defenders. If both Rooney and Beardsley were given 10 opportunities to play that perfectly weighted pass, I think Rooney would overhit or underhit or have his pass intercepted the majority of times, probably even all of them, because that's fitting with what happens in real life (alot of the time Rooney's ideas are excellent, and he's lauded for trying something creative, but most of the time the application is wrong, something which tends to be ignored). Beardo on the other hand would be able to play a successful pass more often than not, because he's naturally gifted in this one area. It's just something he's able to do well on a regular basis.

 

Imo this is how I see it for Messi. He's Rooney in the above example - yes, maybe he can play a good ball sometimes, but more often than not he'll get it wrong, even if the idea or vision or speed of thought are excellent.

 

I appreciate that your arguement that Messi is alot better than Zidane was at dribbling + scoring could be used here to say that Zidane was merely a "good" dribbler whilst Messi's is the standard for "great", but I'd argue that here we have different types of dribbling ability/style/effectiveness at play. Zidane may not have been as explosive, direct or as quick as Messi is, but then he was a different type of attacking playmaker, and regardless of what Messi is like, Zidane was still an excellent dribbler with the ball who could beat players and trick them to create space in different ways. So for dribbling, they were both gifted dribblers with great control/technique, albeit with different styles, but for passing/creativity/crossing/ranged shooting/set pieces/etc, I'd say Zidane/Maradona were excellent or gifted in these areas whereas Messi is merely "good".

 

For example, what happens if we compare Ronaldinho to Messi? There's no way Messi is anything like as good as Ronaldinho when it comes to combining tricks with dribbling. Messi is very basic by comparison, he'll get the ball, cut inside with two exceptionally quick touches and be off. I don't think he could do half the things Ronaldinho could on the ball, not in a competitive game. So are we to say Ronaldinho was the better dribbler? No, of course not. As with Zidane, it's just a different style of playing. Even if one is more effective than the other, they're both still world class/legendary dribblers. So styles are a different matter whereas not being proficient at a particular part of the game that would be useful or required for a player in a specific position is a negative trait. So when Messi is marked tightly by a top class, highly organised team in a massively important game, my point from the start was that so far he's shown he can't do anything other than look very ordinary because the other parts of his game aren't up to the same standards (yet).

 

I hope that makes things a bit clearer, and fwiw this is all opinion that is liable to change anyway. As Tooj says he could well change his game and improve in other areas. E.g. I certainly don't remember Ryan Giggs being anything like as good as he is today in his passing/creativity/vision back when he was a an exceptional winger who did nothing but run past everyone for fun.

[Ketsbaia]

Agree with Midds, Ronaldo and Pissi. Its a shame that Xavi has only became so appreciated in recent years, because he's one of the greatest midfielders ever. Daily Mail's "The best players of the world (and Xavi)" headline  . Personally I didn't get the fascination with Zidane, so Xavi takes the crown.

 

 

[Taylor Swift]

Disagree with tmobkey but I cant type the buttons l, o and the full stop on my pc keyboard and can't be arsed to type out a long response on my phone so I'll respond later. It's really about the type of game that barca play and what is required of messi. I thought the game at the bernabeu was a classic refutation of the proposition that messi is only as good as he is because his teammates are so good. I thought it showed the complete opposite, in that without messi, barca struggle against top class teams and it's his movement control and unrivaled ability to create space that enables everyone else in the team to flourish.

[Taylor Swift]

I also think the amount of goals he scores is a hugely underrated part of his game, and its unbelievable that it is. This guy is unstoppable, and hes a force that hasn't been seen in football in my lifetime.

 

I don't think it's possible to impact the game anymore than scoring, so Messi is no doubt one of the few players in the history of world football who have impacted the matches they play in quite significantly.

[Taylor Swift]

52 goals in 51 matches is just insane. I mean, a 2:1 ratio for strikers is considered pretty amazing as it is. A 30 goal season pretty much puts you into the top 3 strikers of the year, but Messi has fifty two, man. Fifty fucking two. And he's hit 11 in the toughest cup competition there is in world football right now. No one has done what he's doing today. No one has come close.

[Guest magpie99]

I think he is an incredible player and knocks spots of Ronaldo, who, I believe, is not a big game player like Messi. Furthermore, he doesnt seem to have that big headed ego that other players like Maradona and Ronaldo (present day) has which I find much more appealing.

 

It is hard to compare him with the likes of Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Best and Pele because the game has changed so much since their days but I can see so many xsimilarities between Messi and Maradona of the early to mid 80s skill wise. Furthermore, I think Messi is much more of a team player than many might see despite the number of goals he scores.'

 

Without doubt, the best in the world and will be for years to come.

[Guest Flatline]

 

So the point I'm trying to make here, if any, is that whilst Messi is probably the most effective solo attacking outlet ever (at club level) and certainly the best player in the world, a phenomenal talent, he's by no means a complete player, which is what Zidane and Maradona were, nor have his achievements matched what some of those he's being compared to have done, even if what he's done already is damn impressive for a 23 year old. If there is someone to compare him to, I'd argue that the original Ronaldo at his peak would serve as a good comparison, even if he was an out-n-out striker, as they're both explosive attacking players with great pace on the ball and the ability to change direction at the drop of a shoulder (and I'd also argue the original Ronaldo at his peak was the better player too).

 

I fully agree with you that Messi is not a complete player, but by that line of reasoning, neither were Zidane. If Messi lack what you describe then surely Zidane must lack the pace/agression/goalscoring virtues that messi possess? Not trying to be clever or anything just genuinly want you to elaborate on what you think constitutes being a "complete player"?

 

Well, I think the context may have been lost here (or I needed to be more specific). By "player" of course I mean attacking creative player. Zidane, to state the obvious, wasn't a striker, or a central midfileder, or a centreback, or a goalkeeper, so I'd not expect him to have attributes that (imo) would be relevant to those positions. Instead I'm calling him a complete player within the context of him being an attacking/creative playmaker. Of course, that's just my opinion of what a "complete player" is, and I'm sure others would argue different things as to what constitutes a "complete player".

 

To back up what I'm saying, I'd argue that imo Jonathan Woodgate was a "complete defender" when he was at his peak for us, or Baresi was for Milan. That doesn't mean they could dribble with the ball out of defence like Lucio, or play wonderfully accurate crossfield diagonal passes like Pique often does today, or burst forward like Cafu/Carlos/Zanetti/etc, but that they were exceptional in all areas relevant to their position as centrebacks (leadership, reading, positioning, tackling, whatever).

 

Hence, within that context, the "complete player" aspect for me means the ability to do all the things required of them for their position. As stated, Zidane and Maradona could dribble past players, turn them, trick opponents, flick the ball on with exceptional accuracy, play perfectly weighted through balls or ranged passes on a regular basis, shoot with good accuracy/technique from various ranges, control the ball adeptly under intense pressure, and take excellent set pieces. Although Messi is better than Zidane at a couple of those things, mainly dribbling with extreme bursts of pace, I think he's lacking in other areas by comparison. That's not to say he can't play a peach of a pass now and again, but that he'd need many attempts to get it right because it's not his natural strength.

 

If I can use an analogy without meaning to be condescending, I'd like to use Rooney vs Beardsley. I'm not comparing the two players at all here or looking to argue who was better/more complete/etc, rather I just want to focus on one attribute to highlight the difference between "good ability" and natural ability. Lets say in a fictional world both of them were in the same position on the pitch with the ball at feet, 40 yards from goal, in a match against the same quality opposition who's defence are playing a slightly high line but with the keeper off his line. In front of them is Andy Cole, just about to peal off and make a darting run off the shoulder of the last defender. The through ball needed to put Andy in on goal would have to be perfectly weighted/flighted with the correct type of spin for the surface to avoid it running through to the keeper, as well as deadly accurate to avoid being intercepted by the defenders. If both Rooney and Beardsley were given 10 opportunities to play that perfectly weighted pass, I think Rooney would overhit or underhit or have his pass intercepted the majority of times, probably even all of them, because that's fitting with what happens in real life (alot of the time Rooney's ideas are excellent, and he's lauded for trying something creative, but most of the time the application is wrong, something which tends to be ignored). Beardo on the other hand would be able to play a successful pass more often than not, because he's naturally gifted in this one area. It's just something he's able to do well on a regular basis.

 

Imo this is how I see it for Messi. He's Rooney in the above example - yes, maybe he can play a good ball sometimes, but more often than not he'll get it wrong, even if the idea or vision or speed of thought are excellent.

 

I appreciate that your arguement that Messi is alot better than Zidane was at dribbling + scoring could be used here to say that Zidane was merely a "good" dribbler whilst Messi's is the standard for "great", but I'd argue that here we have different types of dribbling ability/style/effectiveness at play. Zidane may not have been as explosive, direct or as quick as Messi is, but then he was a different type of attacking playmaker, and regardless of what Messi is like, Zidane was still an excellent dribbler with the ball who could beat players and trick them to create space in different ways. So for dribbling, they were both gifted dribblers with great control/technique, albeit with different styles, but for passing/creativity/crossing/ranged shooting/set pieces/etc, I'd say Zidane/Maradona were excellent or gifted in these areas whereas Messi is merely "good".

 

For example, what happens if we compare Ronaldinho to Messi? There's no way Messi is anything like as good as Ronaldinho when it comes to combining tricks with dribbling. Messi is very basic by comparison, he'll get the ball, cut inside with two exceptionally quick touches and be off. I don't think he could do half the things Ronaldinho could on the ball, not in a competitive game. So are we to say Ronaldinho was the better dribbler? No, of course not. As with Zidane, it's just a different style of playing. Even if one is more effective than the other, they're both still world class/legendary dribblers. So styles are a different matter whereas not being proficient at a particular part of the game that would be useful or required for a player in a specific position is a negative trait. So when Messi is marked tightly by a top class, highly organised team in a massively important game, my point from the start was that so far he's shown he can't do anything other than look very ordinary because the other parts of his game aren't up to the same standards (yet).

 

I hope that makes things a bit clearer, and fwiw this is all opinion that is liable to change anyway. As Tooj says he could well change his game and improve in other areas. E.g. I certainly don't remember Ryan Giggs being anything like as good as he is today in his passing/creativity/vision back when he was a an exceptional winger who did nothing but run past everyone for fun.

 

Ok I see what you are getting at here ( forgive my english by the way in case anything seems poorly elaborated, Im Norwegian). But by saying

Hence, within that context, the "complete player" aspect for me means the ability to do all the things required of them for their position.

 

You sort of paint yourself into a corner, because what is required of a position is both subject to the type of fotball you play, as a team and as an individual, and also its not as clear-cut as it perhaps was in the past, modern fotball being what it is. To put it another way, you argue that every position is subject to a certain set of skills within the framework of that specific role in the team, whereas in reality its not as clear-cut as that. Zidane and Messi are completely different players, and Messi is not even a midfielder ( nor a striker for that matter), he is more of a "false number 9" drifting wide and deep whenever he feels like it, without any defensive responsibilities whatsoever.  Hence, without a clear cut position in a traditional 4-4-2 ( or the like), it may be a bit fruitless to try to pin-point his strengths and weaknesses within that framework.

 

Ive watched messi week in and week out this season, and I have to disagree with you on this claim:

 

That's not to say he can't play a peach of a pass now and again, but that he'd need many attempts to get it right because it's not his natural strength.

 

His vision is second to none,  what he really excels as is moving into tight spaces with 2-3 defenders/midfielders on him, then delivering the ball into the space he frees up as a result of that, usually giving pedro/villa the ball on a platter.

 

 

But if you are to measure things in absolutes, obviously he doesnt have the sheer firing power of Juninho,  CR7 ( at his peak), nor the flair of ronaldinho etc.  But within his own framework of skills he has absolutely everything he needs toolwise, operationalized;:  25 assists and 53 goals this season.

 

 

 

[LooneyToonArmy]

if only he knew how to head the ball and take free kicks

[Incognito]

There's a criminal understatement of Zidane on this board.Xavi,as good as he is,is a mere water carrier compared to ZZ.

[Cronky]

Tmonkey - I wouldn't see passing and shooting as in any way weak areas of Messi's game. In shooting, he may not have Pele and Maradona's raw power but he makes up for that in his accuracy and the range of ways which he uses to get the ball past the keeper. And he can give the ball a fair old wack.

 

Obviously you're right in highlighting his ability to get past opponents, but he also seems able to do that in all sorts of unpromising situations. He's able to employ that skill far more often than you'd expect, and in that respect his size works to his advantage. He somehow wriggles out of situations where even Pele and Maradona might have struggled.

 

On a second point, we'll all remember his second goal last week, but in his first goal he showed a real poacher's instinct in being quicker in thought and action to get to the near post before the opposition and flick the ball in first time. That's where his 100 % concentration and footballing intelligence comes to the fore.

[ponsaelius]

There's a criminal understatement of Zidane on this board.Xavi,as good as he is,is a mere water carrier compared to ZZ.

 

Nernah.

 

Xavi is the most consistently class midfielder I've ever seen. Zidane as good as he was, is more remembered for turning it on on the big occasions.

 

I find it hard to separate them personally.

[Incognito]

That's a myth about ZZ only turning it on in big games tbh.At Madrid and Juve I've seen him play plenty of excellent games.

[ponsaelius]

I still think Xavi has been more consistent, if not as eyecatching.

[Incognito]

Probably.But still not in the same league.Imo of course.

[Flip]

There's a criminal understatement of Zidane on this board.Xavi,as good as he is,is a mere water carrier compared to ZZ.

 

Agreed with the first part, disagreed with the 2nd part.

 

Difference between Zidane and Xavi is very simple. Zidane was a player no one could take the ball away from, he was a complete playmaker with all the needed attributes. Xavi is very good, but is he a complete player? Can he use his left and right as good as Zidane did, can he score with his head, can he hold onto the ball better than Zidane did?

 

Zidane was a monster and people forget that. Also Sewelly, Zidane was class normally, he just turned it on even more in the big games.

 

That's why he won worlds best player 3 times. Best playmaker I've seen by far, however, Xavi is an underrated player too, people tend to forget him due to Messi. Glad people don't in this board.

[Disco]

There's a criminal understatement of Zidane on this board.Xavi,as good as he is,is a mere water carrier compared to ZZ.

 

Agreed with the first part, disagreed with the 2nd part.

 

Difference between Zidane and Xavi is very simple. Zidane was a player no one could take the ball away from, he was a complete playmaker with all the needed attributes. Xavi is very good, but is he a complete player? Can he use his left and right as good as Zidane did, can he score with his head, can he hold onto the ball better than Zidane did?

 

Zidane was a monster and people forget that. Also Sewelly, Zidane was class normally, he just turned it on even more in the big games.

 

That's why he won worlds best player 3 times. Best playmaker I've seen by far, however, Xavi is an underrated player too, people tend to forget him due to Messi. Glad people don't in this board.

 

Pretty much my sentiments. Zidane was a little more of an individual rather the complete team player Xavi is.

[Fugazi]

Only 2 players have scored more goals than Messi (17) in the knockout phase of the Champions League - Raul (18) and Shevchenko (18).

 

Massively impressive stat, considering Messi is only 23.

[ponsaelius]

To think there's still people about that will dig up obscure stats to bash him. I see that moronic 'HE'S NEVER SCORED IN ENGLAND' bollocks is still going round.

 

Hopefully he can put that one to rest at Wembley.

[Stu]

To think there's still people about that will dig up obscure stats to bash him. I see that moronic 'HE'S NEVER SCORED IN ENGLAND' bollocks is still going round.

 

Hopefully he can put that one to rest at Wembley.

 

Are England playing Argentina this summer?