Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Lotus]

CRonaldo ambles about while his team mates scramble and try to get the ball back and everyone calls him a lazy, self absorbed prima donna.

 

Messi does it. Conserving energy. For what? He did f**k all!

 

I love the bloke, awesome player. Never tried yesterday. Didn't even try. Imagine that.....WC final and didn't even try. Sad stuff imo.

 

 

There are 10 other players whose only job is to run without the ball and then give it to Messi when they eventually get it.

 

Wow. What an incredibly dim view of modern football.

[Hughesy]

He should be, on pure achievements, Cruyff s***s all over Maradona's club career and was the best player in one of the most iconic teams in history.

 

But i'm not personally one to put a World Cup winners medal above club year in/year out domination. When i look at achievement i look at the full package.

 

I think its a bit unfair (not just Messi) that players are judged on a tournament which happens once every 4 years after a grueling club season.

 

In the four years between 1982 and 1986, Maradona played 125 games for his clubs, Messi has played 211 since the last WC. Of those games, 7 of Maradona's were in European competition, Messi has played 43.

 

For goals in that period, it's 68 for Maradona and 227 for Messi.

 

Good advice for any future player wanting to be called the "best ever", just really turn it on at a World Cup instead of knackering yourself out by becoming the leading goalscorer for one of the world's greatest clubs.

 

Stat on twitter saying that for the last 8 seasons, Messi have averaged 49 club games per season.  Maradona peaked at 36 club games per season.

[mrmojorisin75]

yeah i'm with lotus, it got a bit fucking tiring watching him walk about like...a massive facet of that great guardiola team was the workrate, and messi worked as hard as anyone in it during those years

 

it's really hard to conclude anything other than he's absolutely fucked for good and/or carrying an injury

 

looks to me like he's going to need lots of pace around him for the next few years to maintain his greatness

[Mole_Toonfan]

Personally i think he's f*cked stamina wise and he knows it which is why he moves so little.

 

He doesn't even make runs in the box anymore, even if he was lazy he'd still want to score. Doesn't make sense to me he's just f*cked physically.

 

Someone at Barca needs to sort out some sort of programme to get his fitness up, being lazy is one thing but he just looks incapable of what's necessary from a fitness point of view.

[Guest Dontooner]

For me the whole effort things is more down to his demeanor than his play. He does walk around a bit a look a little disinterested at times, but he's been doing that for a while now, once he gets the balls he's just as explosive and amazing to watch. I also prefer watching him on the right than anywhere else, but it's crazy to think that he could have won the World Cup having played in that sort of reserved way.

 

I dunno, he's still the best I've seen and that's all that anyone can ever really say anyway imo.

 

We can argue the Messi/Maradona/Pele debate until the end of time, but it's never going to be a fact is it?

 

To me, Messi is the greatest of all time, he's the greatest I've seen, by some way. It's all opinion based and can never be decided, but then I guess that's what makes the debate so interesting (well, sometimes at least).

 

Michael Jordan,

Michael Schumacher Argument

Need to see it to believe it.

 

Only those that were fortunately enough to watch Pele And Mara knew how good they were. Messi lacks the passion imo, he is up there in terms of technique and skill but lacks the leadership and passion for me. He doesnt lead his teams to greater heights like most  big game winners. Even ordinary people who only watches football for the world cup thought he is an average player, meaning he didnt play well enough to separate himself from the rest clearly.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I don't know how anyone can defend what they saw yesterday.

 

You're biased because of your opinions on him from his better performances. The wonderful performances he's given in the past show he can do it but, yesterday he offered next to nothing. Simple as. Shame because i wanted Argentina to win it and had tipped them before the tournament.

 

There's no justification for his no show yesterday unless he was injured. And as he made 2 sprints i presume he wasn't. He may have been totally knackered. I'm sure quite a few players were.

 

Not specifically directed at you, but I tend to find that people that say that or "end of" are usually people that I disagree with.

[Flip]

Personally i think he's f*cked stamina wise and he knows it which is why he moves so little.

 

He doesn't even make runs in the box anymore, even if he was lazy he'd still want to score. Doesn't make sense to me he's just f*cked physically.

 

Someone at Barca needs to sort out some sort of programme to get his fitness up, being lazy is one thing but he just looks incapable of what's necessary from a fitness point of view.

 

He hasn't moved for years though, it's obviously been his choice.

[triggs]

I don't know how anyone can defend what they saw yesterday.

 

You're biased because of your opinions on him from his better performances. The wonderful performances he's given in the past show he can do it but, yesterday he offered next to nothing. Simple as. Shame because i wanted Argentina to win it and had tipped them before the tournament.

 

There's no justification for his no show yesterday unless he was injured. And as he made 2 sprints i presume he wasn't. He may have been totally knackered. I'm sure quite a few players were.

It wasn't a fucking no show like, any other player plays like he did yesterday and they will get praise

[Zero]

I dun quite buy the argument of fatigue.  He got 3 days to rest. He is at 27, career peak, and has been "conserving energy" for 1 year already, 1 year ffs.  I would rather believe it is a mental problem. 

 

If he really feels like no energy to run at all, he should immediately take a break from football and undergo thorough medical check.  This is extremely unusual for any professional footballer nowadays.

 

[Ketsbaia]

I dont get all this about Messi being shite last night. He was average, yeah, but no worse than a lot of them.

[arnonel]

He had the best seat in the house last night, he must have really enjoyed the game...... the way he walked around ALL FARKING GAME

[Elephant]

I dont get all this about Messi being shite last night. He was average, yeah, but no worse than a lot of them.

 

If it was Perez with that performance, everyone would've praised him. Great passes, good movement with the ball. But when it was Messi, it wasn't anything special. Yes, the expectations are really high and he didn't quite deliver what he could at his best, but it doesn't mean that he didn't play well at all.

 

I agree that physically something is wrong with Messi and has been for a while. It's interesting to see what happens now when the World Cup is over. You could really see from Messi that this was something he really cared about. It's worrying though that with Suarez banned, Neymar probably injured and Sanchez gone, Barcelona might need to play Messi even though he might not be at his best fitness early next season.

[triggs]

He had the best seat in the house last night, he must have really enjoyed the game...... the way he walked around ALL FARKING GAME

He always walks around like that,I said it a few weeks ago here and everybody had a go at me

[Hanshithispantz]

I don't know how anyone can defend what they saw yesterday.

 

You're biased because of your opinions on him from his better performances. The wonderful performances he's given in the past show he can do it but, yesterday he offered next to nothing. Simple as. Shame because i wanted Argentina to win it and had tipped them before the tournament.

 

There's no justification for his no show yesterday unless he was injured. And as he made 2 sprints i presume he wasn't. He may have been totally knackered. I'm sure quite a few players were.

It wasn't a fucking no show like, any other player plays like he did yesterday and they will get praise

I doubt it like

 

Rooney played better than Messi did yesterday in 2 of his quals and was labelled shite for some odd reason.

 

-------------

 

Messi wasn't bad but his biggest contribution was the fact he was there, his reputation always means he'll be focused on to some degree and whilst he showed glimpses when he had the ball Germany shut him out effectively for the most part.

 

I'm not too bothered about him ambling about like, it looks like he's taking the piss, and at times he is when he won't even hassle a defender in possession, but it's not that big of a problem, it just looks worse when he isn't at his best offensively.

[Hanshithispantz]

He had the best seat in the house last night, he must have really enjoyed the game...... the way he walked around ALL FARKING GAME

He always walks around like that,I said it a few weeks ago here and everybody had a go at me

you heard it on a podcast and said his movement was poor or something. I think it was me and KI who corrected you on the fact his movement is only shit defensively when the opposition have the ball before you changed your wording. Not that I'm bothered like but there's no need to rewrite history.

[Interpolic]

Maradona was a far more inspirational player than Messi, hard to argue against that.

 

The protection modern players have from refs is also a factor. Anyone can look up the carnage and brutality launched at Maradona back in the day.

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/patrick-barclay-why-i-will-never-consider-lionel-messi-greater-than-diego-maradona-8834548.html

 

Not commenting on that article specifically because I haven't read it, but I do read the Standard almost every day and Barclay is one of the most annoying journalists around.  Almost always wrong yet pigheaded with it.

[The College Dropout]

We wouldn't

 

As i said before Liverpool got him better help they finished 7th the previous two seasons, its incredibly unfair to say it was all Suarez.

 

It's not all Suarez but they wouldn't have challenged for the title without him. Surely, you agree with that?

 

 

[The College Dropout]

 

 

Harsh criticism you may think but the context with which we're talking about him is about whether he's the greatest ever. He was a disappointment at this tournament IMO. Mitigating factors, yes, but he didn't excel at all.

 

That's it for me.

[The College Dropout]

For me the whole effort things is more down to his demeanor than his play. He does walk around a bit a look a little disinterested at times, but he's been doing that for a while now, once he gets the balls he's just as explosive and amazing to watch. I also prefer watching him on the right than anywhere else, but it's crazy to think that he could have won the World Cup having played in that sort of reserved way.

 

I dunno, he's still the best I've seen and that's all that anyone can ever really say anyway imo.

 

We can argue the Messi/Maradona/Pele debate until the end of time, but it's never going to be a fact is it?

 

To me, Messi is the greatest of all time, he's the greatest I've seen, by some way. It's all opinion based and can never be decided, but then I guess that's what makes the debate so interesting (well, sometimes at least).

 

Michael Jordan,

Michael Schumacher Argument

Need to see it to believe it.

 

Only those that were fortunately enough to watch Pele And Mara knew how good they were. Messi lacks the passion imo, he is up there in terms of technique and skill but lacks the leadership and passion for me. He doesnt lead his teams to greater heights like most  big game winners. Even ordinary people who only watches football for the world cup thought he is an average player, meaning he didnt play well enough to separate himself from the rest clearly.

 

Interesting that you brought up those two.For me, football is moreofa team sport than the other two's sports. I know due to his own quality - Schumacher was able to get the 2nd or 3rd best cars by a distance competing for titles. Don't know about the Bulls.

 

 

Messi doesn't elevate his team-mates. That I am sure of. Neither does Cronaldo tbf. From what I read/heard Pele /Maradona certainly had that ability.

[Hughesy]

If you ever watched Fantasy Football in the mid-90s, you would know that Pele was shite.

[Flip]

I dont get all this about Messi being s**** last night. He was average, yeah, but no worse than a lot of them.

 

If it was Perez with that performance, everyone would've praised him.

 

What in the actual fuck? Messi didn't have a good game, no one would praise him, even if it was Shola. It's simple as that really. He walked around the pitch, and lost the ball quite a few times and then tried to go for glory with the last kick of the game. He was an absolute disappointment this whole World Cup because we know what he is capable of, but yesterday he was seriously not in a good day for anyone standards.

[triggs]

He had the best seat in the house last night, he must have really enjoyed the game...... the way he walked around ALL FARKING GAME

He always walks around like that,I said it a few weeks ago here and everybody had a go at me

you heard it on a podcast and said his movement was poor or something. I think it was me and KI who corrected you on the fact his movement is only shit defensively when the opposition have the ball before you changed your wording. Not that I'm bothered like but there's no need to rewrite history.

I changed my wording because I realised I had worded it wrongly the first time. I'm fairly sure some people still disagreed with me after I made the clarification

[Beren]

Barcelona dominate possession in every game they play, and so Messi is constantly involved. Argentina had 36% in the final.

 

Their players don't spunk chances away like the Argentinians have either. He's created more than any other player. Aguero's been absolutely abominable. I hear "he's not fit", aye I'll remember that when he rocks up at SJP in a month's time and pisses it.

 

I'm gutted for Messi. That chance will haunt him.

 

That won't prove anything. Sadly. 

 

Still very sad for Messi.

 

Last night won't be forgotten and there's no mitigation for his performance which really rings true for me. His form just isn't what it was a year or so back.

 

The criticism levelled at his teammates has been over the top too. They played well, created chances and looked reasonably solid throughout. Aside from his glaring miss, he also had some other opportunities where I was sure he'd have done better a few years back.

 

 

 

 

[Vinny Green Balls]

Baggio in '94 remains the best tournament that I've seen from a player. I was only 10 like, but I remember just being totally flawed by him. Absolutely ridiculous that he missed that penalty in those circumstances.

 

Baggio did carry Italy on his shoulders.  Was sad how much he was vilified, considering that they wouldn't have gotten nearly as far without him.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

This "conserving energy" thing really boils my piss, what for the whole fucking game? He simply walked around for 90% of the match only ever coming alive when the ball reached his feet. This from the world's best player at current and one of the world's best players ever, is nothing short of a joke. There was no desire whatsoever to go look for the ball, to make space to receive the ball and to get into the game.

 

I genuinely believe that in his own mind at least, because he has achieved so much and is so good, that these days, he doesn't have to do much, that things will all fall into place, and that is why he hasn't yet surpassed the likes of Pele and Maradona.

 

I was staggered to see him leave the group get together after full-time, as if he was above all that and didn't need geeing up. That to me screamed 'Primadona' and that's what he has become.

 

He was a passenger last night, someone who put in 10% of the effort in a game where he was needed most by his team-mates and those well wishers who wanted to see him win the greatest honour of the lot, the World Cup.

 

Many a time he made no effort whatsoever to close down a man or to squeeze play and that's the very basics. He should be embarrassed by his half arsed efforts last night.

 

Ronaldo doesn't track back or press like crazy but he works his socks off to be in the game. Look at Suarez and Robben and even our own Rooney. There is no excuse.

 

He is the Captain of his country in the World Cup Final, he is the world's greatest player, one of the greatest of all time, and yet he allowed German centre-backs to bring the ball out of defence and waltz past him as if he wasn't there. If I'm his team-mate looking at that I'd not only be pissed of, I'd be massively disappointed.

 

The world's best? Easily of his generation, but I'd put Pele, Maradona, Zidane and Cruyff all above him in the list of all-time greatest players.