Arsene Wenger

[Neil]

He's nowhere near a joke, but he is rightly being questioned more and more. He's worked wonders for Arsenal - indeed, he's the 2nd best manager the Premier League has seen. But now it looks like he's holding them back with his bizarre stubborn streak.

 

He won't get sacked but for the first time I can say I'm not sure if he'll be there in 12 months time.

[oldtype]

He's brilliant and a genius, but at age 61 I think he's also turning into a stubborn old man who can't admit his mistakes.

[spudwiser]

Buy real CB's, a GK, and a guy that likes to shoot and they're s*** hot.

 

 

Given and Cahill would improve the team no end

 

 

[matta]

If Wenger's a joke what does that make make Alan Pardew?

 

Pardew's been a manager in English football for 11 years and achieved the sum total of fuck all.

 

Wenger has been a manager in English football for 14 year and has won the league three times and the f.a cup four times all the while playing fantastic football and making a net profit.

 

Absolutely unbelievable.

 

If I was taken back ten years in a time machine and given the choice of manager I'd always opt for Wenger who would guarantee great football, develop the entire club and leave us financially sound.

 

 

 

 

the team wenger won with wasn't exactly kids.  These days it all about paying kids tons of money, and failing season after season.

 

It wasn't all kids no, but in the squad were:-

 

- Eboue

- Flamini

- Hoyte

- Fabregas

- Clichy

- Ashley Cole

- Djourou

- Seb Larsson

- Pennant

- Lupoli

- Reyes

- Senderos

- Kolo Toure

 

All of whom were pretty inexperienced at the time.

 

 

blended with loads of stars, like henry, pires, vieira and campbell. Thats the spine they miss now.

[The Prophet]

A joke? Don't be daft. I'd go along with the theme in this thread that his own stubbornness is costing him though. On a purely superficial level they need a few finished articles that will make them more direct as an outfit. They have too many players in the mold of Nasri, Rosicky, Eboue, Denilson and Arshavin, the floating attacker who looks pleasing on the eye but produce little in terms of substance, Nasri aside perhaps. That's before you start poking holes in goal keeping deficiencies and the like.

 

Then you've got the psychological element. Ferguson and Mourinho are masters of the 'world is against us' psychology, Wenger isn't.  His players lack the winning menatlity combined with his constant whinging and moaning are an unhealthy combination. The bloke needs to stop gobbing on about refereeing decisions and start addressing the psychological weakness of his squad because at the minute they're never more than half a season away from implosion.

[Guest guinness_fiend]

If Wenger's a joke what does that make make Alan Pardew?

 

Pardew's been a manager in English football for 11 years and achieved the sum total of f*** all.

 

Wenger has been a manager in English football for 14 year and has won the league three times and the f.a cup four times all the while playing fantastic football and making a net profit.

 

Absolutely unbelievable.

 

If I was taken back ten years in a time machine and given the choice of manager I'd always opt for Wenger who would guarantee great football, develop the entire club and leave us financially sound.

 

 

You have thoroughly missed the point of the opening post.  Congratulations.

 

 

The point being what? He's not won the league for a while so he's a joke?

 

Give over.

 

Any sane Arsenal fan should take some time to reflect and look who we have had managing us in the past 14 years and conclude that, as a smaller club (which they were when AW took over from Rioch), they have amazingly over performed under his reign.

 

I mean f***ing hell - they were playing s**** football, in a s**** stadium and were going nowhere when he took over.

 

It should be absolutely unthinkable that they would want rid of him and he'll never be a 'joke' imho when the achievements his philosophy have resulted in are looked back on.

 

FWIW, they'll bomb when he leaves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Without meaning to sound like a smart arse, this is the point: "Is Wenger now a joke?"  The "now" denoting present (not past) tense.  And "joke" doesn't mean useless in this context - whilst Wenger has undoubtedly been a top-drawer manager over his career, it appears that his decision-making (no plan B and perplexing substitutions) is becoming increasingly erratic and his failure to win anything of note over the last few years is nothing short of embarrassing given the talent at his fingertips.  Plus, his incessant need to blame others for mistakes that are clearly of his own making is cringeworthy.  

 

I have been fortunate/unfortunate (depending on how you look at it) enough to attend a good few games at Emirates Stadium over the last few years and many fans (if not all) are disillusioned with Wenger's style of play.  Sure, they play like Barca week-in, week-out, but whereas Barca have a killer instinct, Arsenal don't.  Chelsea have had a sub-par season by their lofty standards but they've managed to overcome the odds, given their patchy start to the season, and fight their way back into contention.

 

Over the last few months of the last couple of seasons, Arsenal have lacked backbone and discipline when it counts.  The blame for this can only be attributed to the manager.  The Mourinhos of this world (which, unfortunately, includes Wenger's similarly testicle-faced nemesis, Harry Redknapp) galvanise their players and give them an other-wordly "us against them" attitude and instill a siege mentality.  Wenger repeatedly allows his supposed talisman, Fabregas, to undermine him publicly (albeit indirectly) through the questioning of the club's transfer policy.  

 

Unless Wenger pulls a whopping great rabbit out of the hat sometime soon, it'll be another case of "all skill, no success."  And that is why he has been a joke this season.

 

And, believe it or not, I want to see Arsenal win the league, as I have a sneaking suspicion that a few players may jump ship if not and it'd be a shame for the league to lose the likes of Fabregas, Van Persie and Nasri (and, who knows, Wilshere).

 

[Minhosa]

If Wenger's a joke what does that make make Alan Pardew?

 

Pardew's been a manager in English football for 11 years and achieved the sum total of f*** all.

 

Wenger has been a manager in English football for 14 year and has won the league three times and the f.a cup four times all the while playing fantastic football and making a net profit.

 

Absolutely unbelievable.

 

If I was taken back ten years in a time machine and given the choice of manager I'd always opt for Wenger who would guarantee great football, develop the entire club and leave us financially sound.

 

 

You have thoroughly missed the point of the opening post.  Congratulations.

 

 

The point being what? He's not won the league for a while so he's a joke?

 

Give over.

 

Any sane Arsenal fan should take some time to reflect and look who we have had managing us in the past 14 years and conclude that, as a smaller club (which they were when AW took over from Rioch), they have amazingly over performed under his reign.

 

I mean f***ing hell - they were playing s**** football, in a s**** stadium and were going nowhere when he took over.

 

It should be absolutely unthinkable that they would want rid of him and he'll never be a 'joke' imho when the achievements his philosophy have resulted in are looked back on.

 

FWIW, they'll bomb when he leaves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Without meaning to sound like a smart arse, this is the point: "Is Wenger now a joke?"  The "now" denoting present (not past) tense.  And "joke" doesn't mean useless in this context - whilst Wenger has undoubtedly been a top-drawer manager over his career, it appears that his decision-making (no plan B and perplexing substitutions) is becoming increasingly erratic and his failure to win anything of note over the last few years is nothing short of embarrassing given the talent at his fingertips.  Plus, his incessant need to blame others for mistakes that are clearly of his own making is cringeworthy. 

 

I have been fortunate/unfortunate (depending on how you look at it) enough to attend a good few games at Emirates Stadium over the last few years and many fans (if not all) are disillusioned with Wenger's style of play.  Sure, they play like Barca week-in, week-out, but whereas Barca have a killer instinct, Arsenal don't.  Chelsea have had a sub-par season by their lofty standards but they've managed to overcome the odds, given their patchy start to the season, and fight their way back into contention.

 

Over the last few months of the last couple of seasons, Arsenal have lacked backbone and discipline when it counts.  The blame for this can only be attributed to the manager.  The Mourinhos of this world (which, unfortunately, includes Wenger's similarly testicle-faced nemesis, Harry Redknapp) galvanise their players and give them an other-wordly "us against them" attitude and instill a siege mentality.  Wenger repeatedly allows his supposed talisman, Fabregas, to undermine him publicly (albeit indirectly) through the questioning of the club's transfer policy. 

 

Unless Wenger pulls a whopping great rabbit out of the hat sometime soon, it'll be another case of "all skill, no success."  And that is why he has been a joke this season.

 

And, believe it or not, I want to see Arsenal win the league this season, as I have a sneaking suspicion that a few players may jump ship if not and it'd be a shame for the league to lose the likes of Fabregas, Van Persie and (and, who knows, Wilshere).

 

 

All very short sighted is what I'm saying.

 

Those Arsenal fans (and having an office in London I count a good few as friends) should ask why they have 'talent at his fingertips', why they can enjoy football in a great stadium like the emirates, why they can have a trophy cabinet full after his 14 years of running the club, why they have the most productive academy in europe, why they've enjoyed fabulous football they could only have dreamed of during the previous reigns of Rioch, Stuart whatshisname and George Graham.

 

Not to mention the financial position he has placed them in.

 

Theres no doubt they've underachieved in the closing stages of this season (the loss of Vermaelen has hit them this season for sure) and that they need some players in summer.

 

If I was an Arsenal fan, taking the above into account, I'd say it's better the devil you know and be thankful for his achievements rather than question the guys mentality.

 

Don't forget many were doing the same of Fergie just before he announced his "retirement" and he's gone on to win loads more trophies since.

 

[Guest guinness_fiend]

Without labouring a point: from a shareholder's perspective, Wenger is ideal, for obvious reasons. However, from a fan's perspective, he's frustrating.  It's that simple.  "Almost" winning doesn't count.

 

(And I think that Pep would argue "the most productive academy in Europe" point, but we'll agree to disagree )

 

 

 

 

[Cronky]

I find it ridiculous that Wenger's abililty is now being questioned, just because it's six years since they won a trophy. Since the Abramovich takeover of Chelsea, it's become very difficult for anyone bar them and Man U to win anything. Assuming things go as is likely this season, of the 18 domestic trophies available in the last 6 years, 13 have gone to Man U or Chelsea. No-one else has won more than once.

 

It's much more fair to compare Arsenal with Liverpool. Arsenal's finances have been inhibited by the debt incurred on a new stadium, but they've still kept themselves in a challenging position. Liverpool are now out of the top four, with no new stadium and a significantly older side. Wenger has worked something of a miracle with his young players, and may stand to really benefit when the financial fair-play rules kick in.

 

This season has been Arsenal's chance, with Man U in a state of transition and suffering from Rooney's loss of form, and Chelsea losing their way in mid-season. Wenger has had bad lack with injuries, particularly with Vermaelen, and that's really cost him.

[Parky]

I find it ridiculous that Wenger's abililty is now being questioned, just because it's six years since they won a trophy. Since the Abramovich takeover of Chelsea, it's become very difficult for anyone bar them and Man U to win anything. Assuming things go as is likely this season, of the 18 domestic trophies available in the last 6 years, 13 have gone to Man U or Chelsea. No-one else has won more than once.

 

It's much more fair to compare Arsenal with Liverpool. Arsenal's finances have been inhibited by the debt incurred on a new stadium, but they've still kept themselves in a challenging position. Liverpool are now out of the top four, with no new stadium and a significantly older side. Wenger has worked something of a miracle with his young players, and may stand to really benefit when the financial fair-play rules kick in.

 

This season has been Arsenal's chance, with Man U in a state of transition and suffering from Rooney's loss of form, and Chelsea losing their way in mid-season. Wenger has had bad lack with injuries, particularly with Vermaelen, and that's really cost him.

 

Yeah it's just bad luck. You're right.

[Consortium of one]

They need a few players who will look you in the eye before they punch you in the face rather than kick you when you aren't looking, if you catch my drift.  His players, for the most part, are whiny cheap shot artists and that punk Nasri leads the line, IMO.  Wenger, like any good manager, will protect his players in public; even the spineless weasely ones.

[Guest BooBoo]

Arsenal have certainly missed a great opportunity this season. In fact all of the challengers have been desperate by their former standards and Man Utd as such (and it's a very average and often drab Man Utd side) have almost won the league by default.

[CaliMag]

Buy real CB's, a GK, and a guy that likes to shoot and they're s*** hot.

 

 

Given and Cahill would improve the team no end

 

 

 

Aye, this. If Arsenal has bought both of these players during the summer they would be first right now and we would not be having this discussion.

[Parky]

Arsenal have certainly missed a great opportunity this season. In fact all of the challengers have been desperate by their former standards and Man Utd as such (and it's a very average and often drab Man Utd side) have almost won the league by default.

 

...and that my friend is Wengers fault. His stubborn reluctance to get his side the two or three players it has needed now for three or four years.

[Guest BooBoo]

They've also got a load of players in the "they-should-be-good-but-actually-they're-usually-rubbish" category like Walcott, Arshavin, Chamakh etc.

 

Even Nasri has been plop this calendar year.

[Parky]

They've also got a load of players in the "they-should-be-good-but-actually-they're-usually-rubbish" like Walcott, Arshavin, Chamakh etc.

 

Even Nasri has been plop this calendar year.

 

[LesPaul]

I wouldn't go so far as to call him a joke, however, I do think he's passed his sell by date. He had a great run though and will go down as one of the best managers in the history of English football.

[polpolpol]

The current Arsenal team is the answer to a specific question: how can you break down a team that puts players behind the ball and plays as deeply as possible? This was necessitated by the failure of the counter-attacking 442 they previously played to get through teams which never committed numbers of players forward when attacking.

 

The problem is that they haven't quite found the answer to that problem. The current way they play reminds me of the worlds most popular formation, the 2-5-3. The most popular formation, that is, in terms of table-football. The way they advance down the pitch is incredibly inflexible, especially with the 5 players in the middle who have a tendency to stand in a plane across the pitch from the position of the ball carrier. This is much worse when the ball is brought forward down the left. At least when Walcott plays there is still some quick movement down the right to counter-attack.

 

The consequence of this style of play is that the arsenal midfield and full-backs never try to get past the midfield line of the opposition (shit mspaint picture provided below), leaving just the three front players to run the channels in a very congested area of the pitch.

 

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4558/arsenalxg.jpg

 

There are a few consequences of this:

 

The most glaring problem is in the full back area. The full-back's habit of remaining square of the ball (especially Clichy) rather than going ahead of it slows down attacks and pushes the ball across the defence rather than behind it, but most crucially it allows the opponent's defence to remain positionally rigid. One of the main roles of the attacking fullback is to push the fulcrum of the attack to the extremities of the pitch, either pushing towards the byline of being available for a switch of the side of play. The defence is disorganised when it has to adapt to the new attacking disposition, and gaps could be exploited by the kind of ball carrying / channel running players Arsenal have. When this ceases to be a utilised option the defence can retain an optimum state of organisation an penetrating it, once fixed, becomes rather difficult.

 

The midfield three also become static, standing to the side of the ball carrying player. Shifting the ball amongst themselves does little to advance the the attack, and the tendency is to try a through ball,often at inopportune moments. The 'best' Arsenal midfielder at the moment, in terms of looking creative, is Diaby, because he is willing to try and run past opponents, though he is the least composed player they have when in possession.

 

The attacking triumvirate become predictable, each revering to a 'default' reliance on their own particular skill set i.e. Arshavin to 'street football', Van Persie to shifting the ball sideways and shooting etc.

 

The centre backs, isolated behind play, become exposed to counter attacks once the flat line of 5 across the centre of the pitch is penetrated. This leads to them having to make risky decisions when overloaded and has established the hyperstitionally problematic reputation as being error prone (the Arsenal defence reminds me of the Aberlardo and Nadal at millennial Barcelona). 

 

The solution to the impasse Arsenal seem to have found is difficult to pin down to one factor, but the thing they have to get back is a bit of dynamism when in possession, and a bit of unpredictability. I'd say: 1) forget the goalkeeping mistakes, which are a real red-herring. The keeper of a top team is just a machine for distributing the ball quickly and accurately. Take 5 mistakes a year on the chin, a good keeper will set up tens of goals in that period. 2) Get some attacking instincts in the full backs, have them go past players and commit themselves. Eboue is better than Sagna for this reason. Clichy is way too conservative. 3) Rake the midfield a bit, have them shift the ball more up-down than left-right, have someone run from deep. 4) Stick with the forwards, they're pretty good. 

[Guest BooBoo]

:lol:

 

That Zonal Marking has a lot to answer for.

 

"Hyperstitionally problematic reputation" ffs. "Stick with the forwards, they're pretty good."

 

[polpolpol]

:lol:

 

That Zonal Marking has a lot to answer for.

 

"Hyperstitionally problematic reputation" ffs. "Stick with the forwards, they're pretty good."

 

 

I take exception to that. There's at least as much of The Run of Play's belief that football is narrative rather than event in my diatribes as of ZM's dots on green.

[Ameritoon]

It's amazing it's been six seasons and he still hasn't realized something needs to change.

[GM]

Think the majority of Arsenal fans I know think it's time for Wenger to move on. Feel quite sorry for him: his eyesight clearly went a few years ago.

[Parky]

The current Arsenal team is the answer to a specific question: how can you break down a team that puts players behind the ball and plays as deeply as possible? This was necessitated by the failure of the counter-attacking 442 they previously played to get through teams which never committed numbers of players forward when attacking.

 

The problem is that they haven't quite found the answer to that problem. The current way they play reminds me of the worlds most popular formation, the 2-5-3. The most popular formation, that is, in terms of table-football. The way they advance down the pitch is incredibly inflexible, especially with the 5 players in the middle who have a tendency to stand in a plane across the pitch from the position of the ball carrier. This is much worse when the ball is brought forward down the left. At least when Walcott plays there is still some quick movement down the right to counter-attack.

 

The consequence of this style of play is that the arsenal midfield and full-backs never try to get past the midfield line of the opposition (shit mspaint picture provided below), leaving just the three front players to run the channels in a very congested area of the pitch.

 

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4558/arsenalxg.jpg

 

There are a few consequences of this:

 

The most glaring problem is in the full back area. The full-back's habit of remaining square of the ball (especially Clichy) rather than going ahead of it slows down attacks and pushes the ball across the defence rather than behind it, but most crucially it allows the opponent's defence to remain positionally rigid. One of the main roles of the attacking fullback is to push the fulcrum of the attack to the extremities of the pitch, either pushing towards the byline of being available for a switch of the side of play. The defence is disorganised when it has to adapt to the new attacking disposition, and gaps could be exploited by the kind of ball carrying / channel running players Arsenal have. When this ceases to be a utilised option the defence can retain an optimum state of organisation an penetrating it, once fixed, becomes rather difficult.

 

The midfield three also become static, standing to the side of the ball carrying player. Shifting the ball amongst themselves does little to advance the the attack, and the tendency is to try a through ball,often at inopportune moments. The 'best' Arsenal midfielder at the moment, in terms of looking creative, is Diaby, because he is willing to try and run past opponents, though he is the least composed player they have when in possession.

 

The attacking triumvirate become predictable, each revering to a 'default' reliance on their own particular skill set i.e. Arshavin to 'street football', Van Persie to shifting the ball sideways and shooting etc.

 

The centre backs, isolated behind play, become exposed to counter attacks once the flat line of 5 across the centre of the pitch is penetrated. This leads to them having to make risky decisions when overloaded and has established the hyperstitionally problematic reputation as being error prone (the Arsenal defence reminds me of the Aberlardo and Nadal at millennial Barcelona). 

 

The solution to the impasse Arsenal seem to have found is difficult to pin down to one factor, but the thing they have to get back is a bit of dynamism when in possession, and a bit of unpredictability. I'd say: 1) forget the goalkeeping mistakes, which are a real red-herring. The keeper of a top team is just a machine for distributing the ball quickly and accurately. Take 5 mistakes a year on the chin, a good keeper will set up tens of goals in that period. 2) Get some attacking instincts in the full backs, have them go past players and commit themselves. Eboue is better than Sagna for this reason. Clichy is way too conservative. 3) Rake the midfield a bit, have them shift the ball more up-down than left-right, have someone run from deep. 4) Stick with the forwards, they're pretty good. 

 

One of the best posts ever on N.O. My hat off to you Sir!

 

It used to be that One or two of them would just run through the middle I'm thinking Fabregas or Nasri but they seem to have stopped doing that. When they do it, it causes the 2nd def line to lose sight of the strikers and also lose shape.

 

I did also note that when Chamakh came on VP dropped off a bit and started laying on some very nice mid range passing creating gscoring opp's with a couple of them.

 

As you say, you only have to look at where Evra ends up when MU are attacking and the sad camp Clichy sticks to just past the half way line.

[LesPaul]

Feel quite sorry for him: his eyesight clearly went a few years ago.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/323/083/arsene-wenger_display_image.jpg?1280630722

[La Parka]

Good post polpolpol