Guest tollemache Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 The rationale behind wanting a manager who manages and another department that takes care of recruitment is really sound, I reckon, and will benefit us enormously. As has been mentioned in the last couple of pages, the really mystifying part of that whole saga was; why even approach Keegan in the first place? I think employing him that second time around was one of the biggest mistakes Ashley has made. It's as though he thought he could keep everyone happy - manage transfers his own (admittedly very sensible) way yet give the fans the manager they wanted, working on the assumption it would just somehow all fit together. It's just baffling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I find it hard to take seriously anyone who describes installing Dennis Wise above the manager and in charge of transfers as 'very sensible'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I'm referring to the general concept of keeping transfer policy separate from the remit of the head coach, if that wasn't obvious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Why do Pardew and the club constantly try and convince us that that's no longer the policy then? The roles of Wise and others were all disbanded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Do they? I thought Pardew has said publicly that he doesn't really get involved, beyond vague consultation... "We need a striker" etc.... leaves the rest to Llambias and the scouts. I'm positive he's said that publicly more than once Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 In any case, it's very obvious that what they don't do is give Pardew a budget and ask him to go about bringing people in. Transfers are not the domain of the manager in anything like the way Keegan would've wanted / expected, and that is to the club's great benefit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quayside Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 The rationale behind wanting a manager who manages and another department that takes care of recruitment is really sound, I reckon, and will benefit us enormously. As has been mentioned in the last couple of pages, the really mystifying part of that whole saga was; why even approach Keegan in the first place? I think employing him that second time around was one of the biggest mistakes Ashley has made. It's as though he thought he could keep everyone happy - manage transfers his own (admittedly very sensible) way yet give the fans the manager they wanted, working on the assumption it would just somehow all fit together. It's just baffling. There was some really naive thinking going on at that time partly down to arogance and partly down to lack of knowledge and experience. Let's not forget that KK wasn't first choice for Ashley, he was behind Redknapp, a manager with a "traditional" disdain to having a director of football above him. The whole thing was indeed destined to fail if they were targetting old school managers of that type to work in that structure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Do they? I thought Pardew has said publicly that he doesn't really get involved, beyond vague consultation... "We need a striker" etc.... leaves the rest to Llambias and the scouts. I'm positive he's said that publicly more than once He's changed his tune on the finer details a few times actually, but the general message has always been that he's as involved in the decision-making as anyone else out of him, Carr, Charnley and Llambias. He said only the other week that he was actively involved in the scouting of and decisions over whether or not he wanted the club to get Cabaye and Sissoko. Why do that if all he says is 'get me some playmakers'? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Not the foggiest. The impression I've always had is that he's involved only in quite broad terms. As above, in whatever sense he is involved, it's undeniably a far cry from the Keegan approach where recruitment is one of the manager's responsibilities, and that's good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Do they? I thought Pardew has said publicly that he doesn't really get involved, beyond vague consultation... "We need a striker" etc.... leaves the rest to Llambias and the scouts. I'm positive he's said that publicly more than once He's changed his tune on the finer details a few times actually, but the general message has always been that he's as involved in the decision-making as anyone else out of him, Carr, Charnley and Llambias. He said only the other week that he was actively involved in the scouting of and decisions over whether or not he wanted the club to get Cabaye and Sissoko. Why do that if all he says is 'get me some playmakers'? I would speculate that after the Keegan fiasco, they've realised that the 'manager' will need to be involved at some stage before 'unwanted' players are foisted upon him. Maybe that's why we didn't see a great deal of activity under Hughton, as they were still waiting for someone who was 100% bought into the process to be installed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Not the foggiest. The impression I've always had is that he's involved only in quite broad terms. As above, in whatever sense he is involved, it's undeniably a far cry from the Keegan approach where recruitment is one of the manager's responsibilities, and that's good. At that point in time I don't believe Ashley had a fucking clue what he was doing, he as good as admitted that after relegation and in deciding to ditch Wise and friends without replacing them. By all accounts the football men Pardew and Carr decide on the players, and the money men Charnley and Llambias do the transfers. I'm not sure how that can be so different from the rest of the Premier League. Whatever our system is it's clearly working well at present, but it's certainly no magical, revolutionary plan. FWIW I totally disagreed with the Keegan appointment at the time and posted on here that I felt it was a mistake. But I don't see that he couldn't have worked with the system we have in place now, not in the slightest. They treated him like shit because thought they were clever and were in fact clueless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanji Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Always was under the impression that its a bit of a moving and organic process. Pardew (coaching staff) identifies needs, Carr (scouting staff) actively scout and recruit players actively. Both come together accordingly based on need of coaching staff (injuries, form, player sales) and urgency of find from the scouting staff (contract situation, buyout, release clauses etc). I think I recall Pards has mentioned there are certain players we just don't go after based on the cost of the player so obviously Llambias, and Charnley (board) are given a budget from Ashley. Pards himself has said we don't sign players that are not uniformly agreed upon. To round the process off - Llambias and Charnely do the business deal of it. So when Pards is asked how negotiations are going, he naturally won't give full answers b/c he'll just know what he's told as this has become much more "business-like" than ever before - the modern game. (My take): A player like Cisse was identified by the scouting team, who put it to Pards and he really liked the player himself and they were able to convince the board to request a special circumstance from Ashley to spend the high transfer fee to get him. What I've always said is I quite like our system, I think everyone has a clear-cut role and if you are a manager willing to work within the system its a great one. Some aren't, so fair enough. I'd like to see Ashley make some more "Cisse" exceptions to the normal rule. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Didn't say it was magical or revolutionary, just that it's the sensible, correct way of doing it if you want long-term stability. It's what most of the rest of the world does - it's just Britain really that has always had this sense that the manager should dictate his own transfer policy. You reckon Keegan would've put up with the current approach? Mmmmm not so sure. Happy to admit I'm not the ultimate expert on the personality and methods of Kevin Keegan though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 There's nothing wrong with what we've got at all if you're willing and able to be flexible. Going by the last accounts and reported financial health of the club we are certainly able. January was almost universally praised because that flexibility was shown. It took its time, but it was present. Needs must, so we brought some deals forward and we're going to be much better off for it. Bringing Cisse in was a major surprise at the time because we didn't need to do that, but did it anyway. We reaped the benefits. We seem to have a settled, working formula going here and most including me are delighted with it. The only issues arise when the people at the top try to be too clever, like assuming we'd get away with not investing in the summer despite everyone else knowing it would go wrong. Failing to go the extra mile to get a player despite knowing our recent success rate. Sometimes gambles pay off, but often they do not. They need to focus on continuing to back the current system rather than trying to fix something that isn't broken and fucking about doing things people who know football would realise are destined to fail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmonkey Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 I think Pardew is a liar and is full of s*** - his absolutely best attribute as a manager is his ability to lie convincingly to the media. I wouldn't be suprised if his input on transfers from abroad is minimal, or he contributes a token nod of approval at best. If Carr has identified someone he considers to be a potential top class signing, and that player then becomes available for cheap, why would Pardew say "no"? Are we are of any instance of him rejecting a player Carr has put forward for us to sign? It needs to be remembered that the entire point of appointing him as our manager was because he was a 'Yes' man, someone who was willing to fit in with Ashley's vision of how managers should work at this club (and how they should be renumerated - remember all that crap in the media about how Ashley wanted to "change the game" and go against the industry standard by renumerate managers on a performance related/bonus contract?). Pardew networked his way into Hughton's job by whispering into Ashley's ear like Wormtongue, seducing him with softly spoken words like "trust me baby, I won't complain if you sign players without telling me" and "you can pay me how you want, cupcake" whilst stroking Ashley's manboobs in a downwards spiral motion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 In any case, it's very obvious that what they don't do is give Pardew a budget and ask him to go about bringing people in. Transfers are not the domain of the manager in anything like the way Keegan would've wanted / expected, and that is to the club's great benefit. It is only to the club's 'great benefit' if the chief scout is good at his job AND the manager - who has to work with the players - is happy with what he is being given. What happens when the Scouting system fails if the chief scout leaves/retires ? Would YOU be happy having an employee foisted on you without having any hand in the recruitment process and without knowing whether he/she was going to fit in with the rest of the company ? If so, you must be pretty unique because I wouldn't and I doubt that the likes of Wenger, Mourinho and Ferguson would either - that is why both Fergie AND Wenger said that KK was right to walk out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 There's nothing wrong with what we've got at all if you're willing and able to be flexible. Going by the last accounts and reported financial health of the club we are certainly able. January was almost universally praised because that flexibility was shown. It took its time, but it was present. Needs must, so we brought some deals forward and we're going to be much better off for it. Bringing Cisse in was a major surprise at the time because we didn't need to do that, but did it anyway. We reaped the benefits. We seem to have a settled, working formula going here and most including me are delighted with it. The only issues arise when the people at the top try to be too clever, like assuming we'd get away with not investing in the summer despite everyone else knowing it would go wrong. Failing to go the extra mile to get a player despite knowing our recent success rate. Sometimes gambles pay off, but often they do not. They need to focus on continuing to back the current system rather than trying to fix something that isn't broken and f***ing about doing things people who know football would realise are destined to fail. you have to look at that flexibility in context. it's much easier to be flexible when you are paying that extra million for a player who is still worth 5 or 6 times more than you are paying as opposed to paying an extra million which may mean paying more than you think he's worth. even in january we still only really paid market value for one player (debuchy) and even that may have been skewed by his desire to come here fora long time. as for not investing last summer, do you think they really said "we're strong enough so we have no intention of investing in this (summer) window" or was it that the deals they wanted just wouldn't come off (debuchy, de jong, douglas). I know it seems picky but some, if not many, think we just had no intention whatsoever and that's not how i saw it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Pardew networked his way into Hughton's job by whispering into Ashley's ear like Wormtongue, seducing him with softly spoken words like "trust me baby, I won't complain if you sign players without telling me" and "you can pay me how you want, cupcake" whilst stroking Ashley's manboobs in a downwards spiral motion. Too much detail, man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 One thing in their defense - although they make mistakes, they rarely repeat the same mistake. Learning (making it up in some case) as they go along, but definitely learning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stozo Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 One thing in their defense - although they make mistakes, they rarely repeat the same mistake. Learning (making it up in some case) as they go along, but definitely learning. This. And it's the reason why I'm actually quite confident with Ashley in charge going forward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 He'd tell him to just go out and express himself, bud. Hatem would then magically develop fantastic pace and start scoring 25 a season. He'd double his career tally in the first season alone. Gotta love KK and his long magic wand. Or perhaps he'd get the best out of him and utilise him correctly like his proven track record of doing so with Newcastle players. He certainly wouldn't have deployed him so defensively like Pardew has this season that's for sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 He'd tell him to just go out and express himself, bud. Hatem would then magically develop fantastic pace and start scoring 25 a season. He'd double his career tally in the first season alone. Gotta love KK and his long magic wand. Or perhaps he'd get the best out of him and utilise him correctly like his proven track record of doing so with Newcastle players. He certainly wouldn't have deployed him so defensively like Pardew has this season that's for sure. eh ? he played ginola exactly as pardew has ben arfa, wide in a midfield 4 except ben arfa puts more work in, more down to the player than the manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 I wouldn't say Ginola played anywhere near as deep as Ben Arfa has been in a 4-4-2 this season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughesy Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 He'd tell him to just go out and express himself, bud. Hatem would then magically develop fantastic pace and start scoring 25 a season. He'd double his career tally in the first season alone. Gotta love KK and his long magic wand. Or perhaps he'd get the best out of him and utilise him correctly like his proven track record of doing so with Newcastle players. He certainly wouldn't have deployed him so defensively like Pardew has this season that's for sure. eh ? he played ginola exactly as pardew has ben arfa, wide in a midfield 4 except ben arfa puts more work in, more down to the player than the manager. Which, as I've pointed out before, Ben Arfa shouldn't be exempt from. Bale and Lennon manage to track back pretty well, for example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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