Mike Ashley

[merlin]

Have to laugh at the craic of the Ashley fans on here in the summer though - justifying not buying Debuchy et al with "why on Earth would you buy now when we might get him cheaper in January", as if there's no football played in between.

 

Errr this is why lads. Unfortunately for Mike Ashley, the Premier League doesn't shut down while he tries to get 5% off.

 

This - I made my mind up finally about Ashley after he skimped on the summer transfers and then added insult to injury by throwing money at the Scottish lower division side who had been demoted through financial irregularities. This is just about his level - a chancer and bluffer who capitalises on others' misfortunes.

He will be sweating buckets now because once again, as with the KK saga and the sacking of Hughton, it has come back to bite him on his very generous posterior - he appointed Pardew for reasons not entirely clear, then, when the guy managed a decent season with some players spotted by a good scout, he fails to build on that success and leaves his 'manager of the year' high and dry. The players, who had given everything to finish 5th, see that the new arrivals they expected fail to materialise and some are no doubt disappointed.... He then gives him an 8 year contract and is rewarded by the team going into freefall, some of which is undoubtedly down to a parsimonious transfer window and a manager proving to be tactically limited - you couldn't make it up.

 

I supported his policy of signing young quality players - but NOT at the expense of building on a side which had just finished 5th and qualified for Europe - the investment in Glasgow Rangers just topped it all off.

 

I was grateful that he took over from Shepherd and stabilized the club financially - but that is the past and he didn't stand still when building his OWN business...ask Whelan !

 

If we lose on Monday, I reckon we'll see how good a chancer he is !

[loki679]

I think my three least favorite words in this forum are "some on here"

 

I would have thought it would be 'I saw oldtype......'

[ExiledGeordie]

 

He opted not to bring any new faces in in January when we were last relegated. That undoubtedly contributed to our downfall that season. Relegation although still highly unlikely simply isn't an option because of the mega premier league money world deal coming in............you'd like to think this will force his hand.

 

I mean finishing higher up the table warrants decent prize money as it is, say 6-8m if we finished up in the top 8 compared to where we are now? Throw in just how much money each club gets with this new deal in the summer and surely parting with say 10-15m in January is peanuts compared to what is at stake?

 

 

[Cronky]

I think he'll soon be faced with the choice between spending in January to maintain our Premiership place, and spending next season to stop us going belly up financially in the Championship.

 

I don't think he should be getting all the blame for the situation we're in though. There were problems in the way we were playing and in the balance of the squad that ought to have been addressed over the summer. That could have been achieved by intelligent trading of players in and out. It seems to me that Ashley was given the message to try and hang on to the existing squad as the first priority.

[ExiledGeordie]

 

Well on the transfer front we just don't know what happened in the summer. It seemed pretty clear to me given the interviews that Pardew did such as the phone in up that he/they (Carr et al) had identified key targets such as Douglas and Debuchy. Given Ashley's trend in refusing to spend a penny recently you'd have to lay the blame at his feet and his lapdog Llambias. Pardew has his faults re the team and they way they play but I'd say he has barely any say on who comes in or goes out.

[johnnypd]

Definitely lost a bit of faith in Ashley recently, and not just due to this terrible run we're on. The poor summer transfer window was hugely disappointing and Llambias's weird 'purple players' justification just made it worse. The momentum has stalled from that window and we even came out of it weaker in some ways - mainly from Best giving us a more muscular option up front and Guthrie's more technical/creative approach in midfield. The size of the squad might not have changed but our options, flexibility and range of players have slightly decreased.

 

As for keeping our best players - it's a bonus but players come and go - what matters is that the club is set up for any eventuality and can replace them. Look at Dortmund - lose Sahin bring in Gundogan, lose Kagawa bring in Reus. It's like the club already have replacements lined up to fit into a team ethos and identity. Look at Lille - they wouldn't sell us Debuchy without absolutely making sure they could get in a suitable replacement. When it comes to us I just don't have that kind of faith that if we sold Cabaye or Ba or Ben Arfa that we'd have a player in right away. I do think we'd reinvest the money but we'd reinvest over 2 or 3 years and it would probably take us anywhere between 6 months and 2 years to get proper replacements in. The end result is that we'll always be a work in progress. Could be wrong of course but we'll see when these players get disillusioned and leave soon....

 

Furthermore I was all for Ashley's scheme to buy a lot of young talent from across the UK and Europe and for me the announcement that the club is no longer going after under-18 players is a crushing blow. It's incredibly short-sighted and for me demonstrates that Ashley does not have long term commitment to his ideas - you are not going to hit the bullseye with every youth signing - in fact you will always get far more failures than successes when buying at that level, but it is something every club should do doing these days. Liverpool have signed dozens of talented kids in recent years and plenty of them didn't work out but now you are seeing the likes of Shelvey, Sterling and Suso come through. If anything we needed to step up that policy - not scrap it. It also takes time to build up the right scouting and coaching set-up and to learn from your failures. For Ashley to throw his toys out the pram because Ben Tozer, Samuel Adjei, Haris Vuckic and Aaron Spear didn't turn into megastars is idiotic. So that's lost him a lot of my support.

 

And when you look at his response to that issue you can kind of sense a bit more about what kind of man he is. He's not stupid - he knows when he is on to a good thing, ie Graham Carr, but I don't believe that him and his team are forward thinking enough to come up with their own good ideas and practices, I don't think they are committed enough and I still think Ashley is incredibly rash and eccentric.

 

The 8 year contracts dished out to the coaches defy any sense of logic - in fact I suspect Ashley thought he was being canny and anticipating an approach for Pardew from a bigger club or even England and issued a contract which would earn him big bucks in compensation. You just have to shake your head at that.

 

As for not coming up with their own ideas or seeing them through all the way - Ashley is still lucky that Hughton landed in his lap. While he was fannying around trying to sell the club Hughton took us back to the premiership at the first time of asking and also brought in Graham Carr. But you can't rest on your laurels - just having one good chief scout isn't enough, clubs have to constantly evolve and look for ways to stay one step ahead. We need to constantly be experimenting and innovating, bringing in new ideas not jettisoning them at the first sign of trouble or thinking we've got everything sussed just because of one good season or a couple of good purchases. It doesn't work like that i'm afraid.

 

I was very disappointed to read that the club doesn't really bother scouting south america due to work permits and that we even turn our noses up at the Bundesliga due to high wages. It seems the hierarchy think our ligue 1, eredivise etc focus is enough but it's not. Yes there are issues when recruiting from certain countries but, again, we should constantly be looking for new ways to gain an advantage - look at how German clubs have started hiring from Japan and S Korea recently, for example. You can work around the issues if you are committed enough and smart enough.

 

And this doesn't just apply to the footballing side of the business - our commercial income seems to be massively underperforming, both because he has alienated the traditional support/customer base and not made the 'brand' attractive enough for new investors/supporters/customers. A series of bad decisions such as the naming rights end up costing us money in the long run, to the extent where we're signing deals at far lower rates than much smaller clubs with questionable firms like Wonga.

 

It's just not enough for me to think we can sustain success with Ashley at the helm. This is by no means an anti-Ashley post - i think after a disasterous start he and llambias have learned and done some good things for the club, no doubt. They just seem to exude a bit too much smugness on the back of one good season - which by itself is not important - but when that smugness stops you from innovating or trying to improve yourself because you think you are the dog's bollocks - then it really becomes a problem.

[Rebellious]

Definitely lost a bit of faith in Ashley recently, and not just due to this terrible run we're on. The poor summer transfer window was hugely disappointing and Llambias's weird 'purple players' justification just made it worse. The momentum has stalled from that window and we even came out of it weaker in some ways - mainly from Best giving us a more muscular option up front and Guthrie's more technical/creative approach in midfield. The size of the squad might not have changed but our options, flexibility and range of players have slightly decreased.

 

As for keeping our best players - it's a bonus but players come and go - what matters is that the club is set up for any eventuality and can replace them. Look at Dortmund - lose Sahin bring in Gundogan, lose Kagawa bring in Reus. It's like the club already have replacements lined up to fit into a team ethos and identity. Look at Lille - they wouldn't sell us Debuchy without absolutely making sure they could get in a suitable replacement. When it comes to us I just don't have that kind of faith that if we sold Cabaye or Ba or Ben Arfa that we'd have a player in right away. I do think we'd reinvest the money but we'd reinvest over 2 or 3 years and it would probably take us anywhere between 6 months and 2 years to get proper replacements in. The end result is that we'll always be a work in progress. Could be wrong of course but we'll see when these players get disillusioned and leave soon....

 

Furthermore I was all for Ashley's scheme to buy a lot of young talent from across the UK and Europe and for me the announcement that the club is no longer going after under-18 players is a crushing blow. It's incredibly short-sighted and for me demonstrates that Ashley does not have long term commitment to his ideas - you are not going to hit the bullseye with every youth signing - in fact you will always get far more failures than successes when buying at that level, but it is something every club should do doing these days. Liverpool have signed dozens of talented kids in recent years and plenty of them didn't work out but now you are seeing the likes of Shelvey, Sterling and Suso come through. If anything we needed to step up that policy - not scrap it. It also takes time to build up the right scouting and coaching set-up and to learn from your failures. For Ashley to throw his toys out the pram because Ben Tozer, Samuel Adjei, Haris Vuckic and Aaron Spear didn't turn into megastars is idiotic. So that's lost him a lot of my support.

 

And when you look at his response to that issue you can kind of sense a bit more about what kind of man he is. He's not stupid - he knows when he is on to a good thing, ie Graham Carr, but I don't believe that him and his team are forward thinking enough to come up with their own good ideas and practices, I don't think they are committed enough and I still think Ashley is incredibly rash and eccentric.

 

The 8 year contracts dished out to the coaches defy any sense of logic - in fact I suspect Ashley thought he was being canny and anticipating an approach for Pardew from a bigger club or even England and issued a contract which would earn him big bucks in compensation. You just have to shake your head at that.

 

As for not coming up with their own ideas or seeing them through all the way - Ashley is still lucky that Hughton landed in his lap. While he was fannying around trying to sell the club Hughton took us back to the premiership at the first time of asking and also brought in Graham Carr. But you can't rest on your laurels - just having one good chief scout isn't enough, clubs have to constantly evolve and look for ways to stay one step ahead. We need to constantly be experimenting and innovating, bringing in new ideas not jettisoning them at the first sign of trouble or thinking we've got everything sussed just because of one good season or a couple of good purchases. It doesn't work like that i'm afraid.

 

I was very disappointed to read that the club doesn't really bother scouting south america due to work permits and that we even turn our noses up at the Bundesliga due to high wages. It seems the hierarchy think our ligue 1, eredivise etc focus is enough but it's not. Yes there are issues when recruiting from certain countries but, again, we should constantly be looking for new ways to gain an advantage - look at how German clubs have started hiring from Japan and S Korea recently, for example. You can work around the issues if you are committed enough and smart enough.

 

And this doesn't just apply to the footballing side of the business - our commercial income seems to be massively underperforming, both because he has alienated the traditional support/customer base and not made the 'brand' attractive enough for new investors/supporters/customers. A series of bad decisions such as the naming rights end up costing us money in the long run, to the extent where we're signing deals at far lower rates than much smaller clubs with questionable firms like Wonga.

 

It's just not enough for me to think we can sustain success with Ashley at the helm. This is by no means an anti-Ashley post - i think after a disasterous start he and llambias have learned and done some good things for the club, no doubt. They just seem to exude a bit too much smugness on the back of one good season - which by itself is not important - but when that smugness stops you from innovating or trying to improve yourself because you think you are the dog's bollocks - then it really becomes a problem.

 

Good post, basically similar to what I couldn`t be arsed to type myself.

[cp40]

yep agreed,

 

came in a saviour, turnded out a cunt, not a cunt, a cunt again.

[Stu]

yep agreed,

 

came in a saviour, turnded out a cunt, not a cunt, a cunt again.

 

turded?

[cp40]

yep agreed,

 

came in a saviour, turnded out a cunt, not a cunt, a cunt again.

 

turded?

 

 

turned

 

apt typo.

[Wullie]

Have we really said we're not recruiting under 18s??

[johnnypd]

Have we really said we're not recruiting under 18s??

 

here's how the Journal sycophantically reported it:

 

Yesterday it emerged that Newcastle have told agents they have decided not to sign players under the age of 18 any more – a reaction to the failure of the likes of Aaron Spear and Ben Tozer to blossom after cash was spent on them.

 

The signing of Gaël Bigirimana, who will soon turn 19, is about as young as Newcastle will go when it comes to spending big bucks. It is an understandable policy given the uncertainty that comes with player development, but it also reflects United’s belief that they have been too quick to write off certain players who are in their early twenties.

 

http://www.journallive.co.uk/nufc/newcastle-united-news/2012/10/09/shane-ferguson-proof-of-a-laudable-policy-61634-31994548/

 

I'm sure we'll continue to recruit under 18s through the usual channels - ie boy's clubs, locals etc - but it looks like the idea of paying money for them from other clubs is finished. big mistake imo and a knee-jerk response to some initial failure.

[stozo]

Have we really said we're not recruiting under 18s??

 

here's how the Journal sycophantically reported it:

 

Yesterday it emerged that Newcastle have told agents they have decided not to sign players under the age of 18 any more – a reaction to the failure of the likes of Aaron Spear and Ben Tozer to blossom after cash was spent on them.

 

The signing of Gaël Bigirimana, who will soon turn 19, is about as young as Newcastle will go when it comes to spending big bucks. It is an understandable policy given the uncertainty that comes with player development, but it also reflects United’s belief that they have been too quick to write off certain players who are in their early twenties.

 

http://www.journallive.co.uk/nufc/newcastle-united-news/2012/10/09/shane-ferguson-proof-of-a-laudable-policy-61634-31994548/

 

I'm sure we'll continue to recruit under 18s through the usual channels - ie boy's clubs, locals etc - but it looks like the idea of paying money for them from other clubs is finished. big mistake imo and a knee-jerk response to some initial failure.

I said this at the time in more detail but I really don't think it is a mistake for a club of our size to stop doing this. Unless you've got the money to spend several million per season on new U18s then you're never going to see the benefit (unless you get lucky with one player). Chelsea, City,Spurs, Liverpool have all spent millions on U18s and seen very little benefit for it. When your recruiting at such a young age (15, 16 etc) then you generally have to accept that the majority of players simply aren't going to develop into what you hope they will. If you've got a finite budget (as we have) that is a very significant hit to take.

[ElDiablo]

Last season's success has come back to bite us on the arse this summer, Ashley will have assumed we're good enough to be able to repeat the feat again without major investment. But, when you factor in the inevitable loss of luck regarding injuries and Ashley's policy of buying good investments rather than players to fill a squad and ideology, this malaise was always just around the corner. It's also why I have an ounce of sympathy with Pardew and think everyone's jumped on his back too quickly. (Wigan is huge for him)

 

This requirement to do everything on the cheap and Ashley's treatment of players as investments and stock, rather than what they are, footballers who are part of a team that requires a deeper thought and recruitment process, will always be main thing holding us back as long as he's here.

[Disco]

Great post johnnypd. Best I've read on here in a while.

[Guest neesy111]

His transfer policies are flawed.

 

It's like building a house in the UK without any central heating to it.  Will be fine during the summer but utterly hopeless when it gets colder (i.e. tougher).

[ElDiablo]

Great post johnnypd. Best I've read on here in a while.

 

[loki679]

Last season's success has come back to bite us on the arse this summer, Ashley will have assumed we're good enough to be able to repeat the feat again without major investment. But, when you factor in the inevitable loss of luck regarding injuries and Ashley's policy of buying good investments rather than players to fill a squad and ideology, this malaise was always just around the corner. It's also why I have an ounce of sympathy with Pardew and think everyone's jumped on his back too quickly. (Wigan is huge for him)

 

This requirement to do everything on the cheap and Ashley's treatment of players as investments and stock, rather than what they are, footballers who are part of a team that requires a deeper thought and recruitment process, will always be main thing holding us back as long as he's here.

 

I still have a feeling that our failure to strengthen has damaged the morale of some of our players too.

[Guest Wally_McFool]

I still have a feeling that our failure to strengthen has damaged the morale of some of our players too.

 

Abserfuckinlutely"

[colinmk]

Definitely lost a bit of faith in Ashley recently, and not just due to this terrible run we're on. The poor summer transfer window was hugely disappointing and Llambias's weird 'purple players' justification just made it worse. The momentum has stalled from that window and we even came out of it weaker in some ways - mainly from Best giving us a more muscular option up front and Guthrie's more technical/creative approach in midfield. The size of the squad might not have changed but our options, flexibility and range of players have slightly decreased.

 

As for keeping our best players - it's a bonus but players come and go - what matters is that the club is set up for any eventuality and can replace them. Look at Dortmund - lose Sahin bring in Gundogan, lose Kagawa bring in Reus. It's like the club already have replacements lined up to fit into a team ethos and identity. Look at Lille - they wouldn't sell us Debuchy without absolutely making sure they could get in a suitable replacement. When it comes to us I just don't have that kind of faith that if we sold Cabaye or Ba or Ben Arfa that we'd have a player in right away. I do think we'd reinvest the money but we'd reinvest over 2 or 3 years and it would probably take us anywhere between 6 months and 2 years to get proper replacements in. The end result is that we'll always be a work in progress. Could be wrong of course but we'll see when these players get disillusioned and leave soon....

 

Furthermore I was all for Ashley's scheme to buy a lot of young talent from across the UK and Europe and for me the announcement that the club is no longer going after under-18 players is a crushing blow. It's incredibly short-sighted and for me demonstrates that Ashley does not have long term commitment to his ideas - you are not going to hit the bullseye with every youth signing - in fact you will always get far more failures than successes when buying at that level, but it is something every club should do doing these days. Liverpool have signed dozens of talented kids in recent years and plenty of them didn't work out but now you are seeing the likes of Shelvey, Sterling and Suso come through. If anything we needed to step up that policy - not scrap it. It also takes time to build up the right scouting and coaching set-up and to learn from your failures. For Ashley to throw his toys out the pram because Ben Tozer, Samuel Adjei, Haris Vuckic and Aaron Spear didn't turn into megastars is idiotic. So that's lost him a lot of my support.

 

And when you look at his response to that issue you can kind of sense a bit more about what kind of man he is. He's not stupid - he knows when he is on to a good thing, ie Graham Carr, but I don't believe that him and his team are forward thinking enough to come up with their own good ideas and practices, I don't think they are committed enough and I still think Ashley is incredibly rash and eccentric.

 

The 8 year contracts dished out to the coaches defy any sense of logic - in fact I suspect Ashley thought he was being canny and anticipating an approach for Pardew from a bigger club or even England and issued a contract which would earn him big bucks in compensation. You just have to shake your head at that.

 

As for not coming up with their own ideas or seeing them through all the way - Ashley is still lucky that Hughton landed in his lap. While he was fannying around trying to sell the club Hughton took us back to the premiership at the first time of asking and also brought in Graham Carr. But you can't rest on your laurels - just having one good chief scout isn't enough, clubs have to constantly evolve and look for ways to stay one step ahead. We need to constantly be experimenting and innovating, bringing in new ideas not jettisoning them at the first sign of trouble or thinking we've got everything sussed just because of one good season or a couple of good purchases. It doesn't work like that i'm afraid.

 

I was very disappointed to read that the club doesn't really bother scouting south america due to work permits and that we even turn our noses up at the Bundesliga due to high wages. It seems the hierarchy think our ligue 1, eredivise etc focus is enough but it's not. Yes there are issues when recruiting from certain countries but, again, we should constantly be looking for new ways to gain an advantage - look at how German clubs have started hiring from Japan and S Korea recently, for example. You can work around the issues if you are committed enough and smart enough.

 

And this doesn't just apply to the footballing side of the business - our commercial income seems to be massively underperforming, both because he has alienated the traditional support/customer base and not made the 'brand' attractive enough for new investors/supporters/customers. A series of bad decisions such as the naming rights end up costing us money in the long run, to the extent where we're signing deals at far lower rates than much smaller clubs with questionable firms like Wonga.

 

It's just not enough for me to think we can sustain success with Ashley at the helm. This is by no means an anti-Ashley post - i think after a disasterous start he and llambias have learned and done some good things for the club, no doubt. They just seem to exude a bit too much smugness on the back of one good season - which by itself is not important - but when that smugness stops you from innovating or trying to improve yourself because you think you are the dog's bollocks - then it really becomes a problem.

 

Great post Johnny, spot on. Personally I've never had any faith in these people mainly because of the type of people they are and also because they know next to nothing about football.

[Wallace]

Great post johnnypd. Best I've read on here in a while.

 

 

[Ikon]

decent, seen better.

[ponsaelius]

Excellent as always johnny. Completely agree with everything you said.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

Furthermore I was all for Ashley's scheme to buy a lot of young talent from across the UK and Europe and for me the announcement that the club is no longer going after under-18 players is a crushing blow. It's incredibly short-sighted and for me demonstrates that Ashley does not have long term commitment to his ideas - you are not going to hit the bullseye with every youth signing - in fact you will always get far more failures than successes when buying at that level, but it is something every club should do doing these days. Liverpool have signed dozens of talented kids in recent years and plenty of them didn't work out but now you are seeing the likes of Shelvey, Sterling and Suso come through. If anything we needed to step up that policy - not scrap it. It also takes time to build up the right scouting and coaching set-up and to learn from your failures. For Ashley to throw his toys out the pram because Ben Tozer, Samuel Adjei, Haris Vuckic and Aaron Spear didn't turn into megastars is idiotic. So that's lost him a lot of my support.

 

I think the feeling behind this was, no more spending money on players from other Academies (effectively giving money away) and instead spending that money on investing on better coaches at youth level to ensure the players we already have here are given the opportunity to become as good as they can. There still will be players signed at u18 level, just not for the high fees that were wasted on the likes of Tozer and Aaron Spear.

In part it goes back to your club ethos wish. The Academy has one, and is gearing up in delivering it. Hopefully they'll remain on board with the ethos and not change it (like what has happened in the past 15 years). There's been a good move away from the recruitment of physical players (teaching the tall, fast & strong to be footballers), to intelligent players that want to learn, can learn and adapt quickly.

[TheGuv]

Furthermore I was all for Ashley's scheme to buy a lot of young talent from across the UK and Europe and for me the announcement that the club is no longer going after under-18 players is a crushing blow. It's incredibly short-sighted and for me demonstrates that Ashley does not have long term commitment to his ideas - you are not going to hit the bullseye with every youth signing - in fact you will always get far more failures than successes when buying at that level, but it is something every club should do doing these days. Liverpool have signed dozens of talented kids in recent years and plenty of them didn't work out but now you are seeing the likes of Shelvey, Sterling and Suso come through. If anything we needed to step up that policy - not scrap it. It also takes time to build up the right scouting and coaching set-up and to learn from your failures. For Ashley to throw his toys out the pram because Ben Tozer, Samuel Adjei, Haris Vuckic and Aaron Spear didn't turn into megastars is idiotic. So that's lost him a lot of my support.

 

I think the feeling behind this was, no more spending money on players from other Academies (effectively giving money away) and instead spending that money on investing on better coaches at youth level to ensure the players we already have here are given the opportunity to become as good as they can. There still will be players signed at u18 level, just not for the high fees that were wasted on the likes of Tozer and Aaron Spear.

In part it goes back to your club ethos wish. The Academy has one, and is gearing up in delivering it. Hopefully they'll remain on board with the ethos and not change it (like what has happened in the past 15 years). There's been a good move away from the recruitment of physical players (teaching the tall, fast & strong to be footballers), to intelligent players that want to learn, can learn and adapt quickly.

 

It was a massive blow that we didn't gain the highest level Academy status though.

 

Again coming from investment imo.