Papiss Cissé

[Dr Venkman]

Cisse's link up play was great when he first came, I was surprised at how good it was and said so. I'm not entirely sure what's changed, perhaps he's stopped dropping deep for it like he seemed to do at the start.

[HawK]

Pretty much all the player threads revolve around players not being played to their strengths. How can a PL manager not realize what thousands can.

 

Perhaps the thousands are being a bit naïve. Playing to Cisse’s strengths isn’t that simple a matter.

 

The way I see it, at the top level, there’s a real problem with integrating a specialist finisher whose hold up and linking play isn’t that good. You can –

 

a) Play him with more of a target man, but then you have two players who are both looking for the same advanced, central position, albeit for different reasons.

 

b) Try a), but then ask one or the other to move into a secondary, withdrawn or wider role, but then you’re asking one of them to do something they’re not good at. That was the whole Ba / Cisse issue.

 

c) Ask the finisher to play as an all-round striker, which is what we seem to be doing at the moment, but that isn’t working well.

 

d) Don’t ask the finisher to do anything other than play on the shoulders of the CBs, and get the rest of the team to create chances for him. Trouble is, your system lacks the interchanging of positions that can help to open up a defence, and you can look a bit static. It can also feel like you’re playing with 10 men, particularly if you’re up against good opposition.

 

Apart from all that, to make plan d) worthwhile, your finisher has to put away a high percentage of the chances that come his way, and personally I don’t think Cisse’s conversion rate is good enough for that.

 

 

I think perhaps you're over-thinking it a little. I would say we need people capable of creating space and committing defenders. Ba used to do this for him, and Best did it for Ba pre-Cisse. We have Ben Arfa and Gouffran who can do that. Play Gouffran up ahead of Cisse or have Cisse flanked by both, and he will keep getting the ball around the D where he does what he does best.

[Cronky]

Pretty much all the player threads revolve around players not being played to their strengths. How can a PL manager not realize what thousands can.

 

Perhaps the thousands are being a bit naïve. Playing to Cisse’s strengths isn’t that simple a matter.

 

The way I see it, at the top level, there’s a real problem with integrating a specialist finisher whose hold up and linking play isn’t that good. You can –

 

a) Play him with more of a target man, but then you have two players who are both looking for the same advanced, central position, albeit for different reasons.

 

b) Try a), but then ask one or the other to move into a secondary, withdrawn or wider role, but then you’re asking one of them to do something they’re not good at. That was the whole Ba / Cisse issue.

 

c) Ask the finisher to play as an all-round striker, which is what we seem to be doing at the moment, but that isn’t working well.

 

d) Don’t ask the finisher to do anything other than play on the shoulders of the CBs, and get the rest of the team to create chances for him. Trouble is, your system lacks the interchanging of positions that can help to open up a defence, and you can look a bit static. It can also feel like you’re playing with 10 men, particularly if you’re up against good opposition.

 

Apart from all that, to make plan d) worthwhile, your finisher has to put away a high percentage of the chances that come his way, and personally I don’t think Cisse’s conversion rate is good enough for that.

 

 

I think perhaps you're over-thinking it a little. I would say we need people capable of creating space and committing defenders. Ba used to do this for him, and Best did it for Ba pre-Cisse. We have Ben Arfa and Gouffran who can do that. Play Gouffran up ahead of Cisse or have Cisse flanked by both, and he will keep getting the ball around the D where he does what he does best.

 

That sounds like option d), but in practice, the advanced striker has to play some part in the build-up and link with his team-mates, and that's where Cisse's limitations are being exposed. You can't exempt a striker from those tasks and just tell him to wait for chances to come his way. So it's reasonable to consider whether we can get a striker who offers a better package.

[Lotus]

Pretty much all the player threads revolve around players not being played to their strengths. How can a PL manager not realize what thousands can.

 

Perhaps the thousands are being a bit naïve. Playing to Cisse’s strengths isn’t that simple a matter.

 

The way I see it, at the top level, there’s a real problem with integrating a specialist finisher whose hold up and linking play isn’t that good. You can –

 

a) Play him with more of a target man, but then you have two players who are both looking for the same advanced, central position, albeit for different reasons.

 

b) Try a), but then ask one or the other to move into a secondary, withdrawn or wider role, but then you’re asking one of them to do something they’re not good at. That was the whole Ba / Cisse issue.

 

c) Ask the finisher to play as an all-round striker, which is what we seem to be doing at the moment, but that isn’t working well.

 

d) Don’t ask the finisher to do anything other than play on the shoulders of the CBs, and get the rest of the team to create chances for him. Trouble is, your system lacks the interchanging of positions that can help to open up a defence, and you can look a bit static. It can also feel like you’re playing with 10 men, particularly if you’re up against good opposition.

 

Apart from all that, to make plan d) worthwhile, your finisher has to put away a high percentage of the chances that come his way, and personally I don’t think Cisse’s conversion rate is good enough for that.

 

 

I think perhaps you're over-thinking it a little. I would say we need people capable of creating space and committing defenders. Ba used to do this for him, and Best did it for Ba pre-Cisse. We have Ben Arfa and Gouffran who can do that. Play Gouffran up ahead of Cisse or have Cisse flanked by both, and he will keep getting the ball around the D where he does what he does best.

 

That sounds like option d), but in practice, the advanced striker has to play some part in the build-up and link with his team-mates, and that's where Cisse's limitations are being exposed. You can't exempt a striker from those tasks and just tell him to wait for chances to come his way. So it's reasonable to consider whether we can get a striker who offers a better package.

 

Who would you suggest who we can afford and might be possibly willing to come?

[STM]

I don't really see where this myth is coming from that he has missed loads of chances. Especially considering we don't create loads of chances. When he has missed,  they have been in games where its been his only chance of the game.

 

I'm not making excuses for him but im surprised he bothers making runs anymore. His confidence was clearly shot from slot of the season.

 

We need to create more from midfield, movement and space would make a difference.

 

I wish he would stay onside though,  boils my piss.

[Unbelievable]

I don't think it's a myth. Compare Cisse's first half season (disregard Sturridge as not relevant):

 

http://cdn.eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/goals-for-papiss-and-sturridge.png

 

To his first full season (updated up until april 27th 2013, i.e. after he last scored, so these stats will not have improved):

 

http://cdn.eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Cisse-Vs-Sturridge-12-13-Creativity.png

 

Every single (Premiership only) stat there indicates his chance conversion this year was well below par.

 

Source: http://www.eplindex.com/31224/papiss-ciss-daniel-sturridge-battle-january-signings.html

[Teasy]

Pretty much all the player threads revolve around players not being played to their strengths. How can a PL manager not realize what thousands can.

 

Perhaps the thousands are being a bit naïve. Playing to Cisse’s strengths isn’t that simple a matter.

 

Well we don't have to play exactly to his strengths, but it would certainly help if we didn't play to the complete opposite of his strengths.

[Lotus]

I don't think it's a myth. Compare Cisse's first half season (disregard Sturridge as not relevant):

 

http://cdn.eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/goals-for-papiss-and-sturridge.png

 

To his first full season (updated up until april 27th 2013, i.e. after he last scored, so these stats will not have improved):

 

http://cdn.eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Cisse-Vs-Sturridge-12-13-Creativity.png

 

Every single (Premiership only) stat there indicates his chance conversion this year was well below par.

 

Source: http://www.eplindex.com/31224/papiss-ciss-daniel-sturridge-battle-january-signings.html

 

Pretty damning tbh. Who would you replace him with? /genuinequestion

[Guest Phil K]

Has to be remembered that his service wasn't too good either. LOTS of players underperforming (and managers for that matter)

[Unbelievable]

I don't think it's a myth. Compare Cisse's first half season (disregard Sturridge as not relevant):

 

http://cdn.eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/goals-for-papiss-and-sturridge.png

 

To his first full season (updated up until april 27th 2013, i.e. after he last scored, so these stats will not have improved):

 

http://cdn.eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Cisse-Vs-Sturridge-12-13-Creativity.png

 

Every single (Premiership only) stat there indicates his chance conversion this year was well below par.

 

Source: http://www.eplindex.com/31224/papiss-ciss-daniel-sturridge-battle-january-signings.html

 

Pretty damning tbh. Who would you replace him with? /genuinequestion

 

I wouldn't replace him (unless we can get silly money, i.e. over 15 million), I would add to our striker options. I want him to stay, get his head and body in order and fire on all cylinders again next season. Just getting tired of people making excuses for him (didn't miss many chances, no service, played on the wing half a season, etc, etc).

[aussiemag]

I don't think it's a myth. Compare Cisse's first half season (disregard Sturridge as not relevant):

 

http://cdn.eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/goals-for-papiss-and-sturridge.png

 

To his first full season (updated up until april 27th 2013, i.e. after he last scored, so these stats will not have improved):

 

http://cdn.eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Cisse-Vs-Sturridge-12-13-Creativity.png

 

Every single (Premiership only) stat there indicates his chance conversion this year was well below par.

 

Source: http://www.eplindex.com/31224/papiss-ciss-daniel-sturridge-battle-january-signings.html

 

Pretty damning tbh. Who would you replace him with? /genuinequestion

 

No one, form is temporary class is permanent. Hell be back stronger next season.

[Unbelievable]

For reference, if his chance conversion rate had been the same as last season, based on number of shots taken, he would have scored 26 in the Premiership alone.

 

Edit: probably more as this doesn't include shots taken in the last 4 games of the season.

[HawK]

Not disagreeing, but remember there's more to it than just numbers... a lot of chances he had when he first came over (and was relatively unknown) were in a team that created space for him to thrive and he a had more time to compose himself per chance than now.. perhaps a bit of 2nd season syndrome but we can't deny he hasn't been afforded the kind of opportunities last season as the one before. His link-up play was fine when he had players ahead of him in 2011/2012 also, so we were not really down a player - he just doesn't play the role of 1 up front well enough, he needs a striker more advanced than him I think.

 

Pardew tried it with Ba with Cisse, but neither striker can play as effective target-men or be able to hold the ball well enough when pumped long. Along the deck and allowing the wings to push on could have seen a whole different 'partnership' - so much of it comes down to tactics. I still shudder at the old Plan A - hoof to Ba/Cisse and don't contest the second ball.

[Mole_Toonfan]

He doesn't have zero service but he does have very minimal service.

 

I see 1 maybe 2 chances per game at the very most.

 

That is nowhere near good enough very few strikers can do anything with this type of service.

 

Before anyone mentions Ba we actually created a decent amount of chances by comparison.

 

Our ability to create chances has got worse as the season has gone on.

[Dokko]

Those stats don't lie, he's been shite.

[Unbelievable]

Not disagreeing, but remember there's more to it than just numbers... a lot of chances he had when he first came over (and was relatively unknown) were in a team that created space for him to thrive and he a had more time to compose himself per chance than now.. perhaps a bit of 2nd season syndrome but we can't deny he hasn't been afforded the kind of opportunities last season as the one before. His link-up play was fine when he had players ahead of him in 2011/2012 also, so we were not really down a player - he just doesn't play the role of 1 up front well enough, he needs a striker more advanced than him I think.

 

Pardew tried it with Ba with Cisse, but neither striker can play as effective target-men or be able to hold the ball well enough when pumped long. Along the deck and allowing the wings to push on could have seen a whole different 'partnership' - so much of it comes down to tactics. I still shudder at the old Plan A - hoof to Ba/Cisse and don't contest the second ball.

 

That's all good and well (and I would deny he hasn't been afforded the kind of opportunities last season as the one before, see my earlier post, he has just missed many more chances relative to 2011-2012), but with the players out our disposal (i.e. considering Ben Arfa has been injured for large parts of the season, and we have no left winger to speak off), how would you have set us up to play to his strengths?

 

Another issue I have with Cisse being the lone forward, and again I am going over covered ground, is he doesn't relish a physical challenge at all, so unless he finds himself unmarked (and onside), having him just sit in the D as you suggested will not see him magically getting more chances by itself. Many of our problems are indeed tactical, but to deny the effects of injuries, an imbalanced squad and Cisse's own limitations is oversimplifying why Cisse hasn't been as effective this season as he should have been considering his obvious talent.

[The College Dropout]

I don't really see where this myth is coming from that he has missed loads of chances. Especially considering we don't create loads of chances. When he has missed,  they have been in games where its been his only chance of the game.

 

 

 

This si half the point. He doesn't contribute greatly to building up those chances and he doesn't create them himself. Suarez used to miss loads but he created at least 1/4 of them himself.

 

If all your meant to do is get on the end of good opportunities, you need to be lethal at it. Or else you're just bringing the team down. If he's not scoring, he might work hard but really offers nowt to the team.

[Hanshithispantz]

Unbelievable is actually making decent points about him recently, TCD still seems to be comparing him to world class strikers and completely negating the other parts of his game to nothing in the process.

 

He isn't a bad footballer at all, and although I agree that he isn't worth keeping in the side if his current goal ratio remains the same it's complete nonsense to suggest that if he doesn't score he offers nothing to the side.

[Hanshithispantz]

He's not a target man either like, hoof the ball to him and more often than not he'll lose out.

[HawK]

Not disagreeing, but remember there's more to it than just numbers... a lot of chances he had when he first came over (and was relatively unknown) were in a team that created space for him to thrive and he a had more time to compose himself per chance than now.. perhaps a bit of 2nd season syndrome but we can't deny he hasn't been afforded the kind of opportunities last season as the one before. His link-up play was fine when he had players ahead of him in 2011/2012 also, so we were not really down a player - he just doesn't play the role of 1 up front well enough, he needs a striker more advanced than him I think.

 

Pardew tried it with Ba with Cisse, but neither striker can play as effective target-men or be able to hold the ball well enough when pumped long. Along the deck and allowing the wings to push on could have seen a whole different 'partnership' - so much of it comes down to tactics. I still shudder at the old Plan A - hoof to Ba/Cisse and don't contest the second ball.

 

That's all good and well (and I would deny he hasn't been afforded the kind of opportunities last season as the one before, see my earlier post, he has just missed many more chances relative to 2011-2012), but with the players out our disposal (i.e. considering Ben Arfa has been injured for large parts of the season, and we have no left winger to speak off), how would you have set us up to play to his strengths?

 

Another issue I have with Cisse being the lone forward, and again I am going over covered ground, is he doesn't relish a physical challenge at all, so unless he finds himself unmarked (and onside), having him just sit in the D as you suggested will not see him magically getting more chances by itself. Many of our problems are indeed tactical, but to deny the effects of injuries, an imbalanced squad and Cisse's own limitations is oversimplifying why Cisse hasn't been as effective this season as he should have been considering his obvious talent.

 

Bold -> Oh come on lol

 

Talking post-January, I wouldn't have lined up with a faux 4-4-2 with Sissoko as the second striker, pushing Cisse up top. I'm saying second striker as without the ball, Sissoko was in line with Cisse when pressing in all the games I managed to see. If it HAS to be 4-4-2 I would have put Gouffran alongside him, dropped Tiote and played Sissoko next to Cabaye. We've had Marveaux for the left and Ben Arfa/-shudder- Obertan on the right.

 

Although I still think a 4-3-3 suits us much better with current personal and we'd be much stronger. Keep the ball on the deck and the team almost picks itself and allows Cisse to drop back with the wider players pushing up.

[Cronky]

Pretty much all the player threads revolve around players not being played to their strengths. How can a PL manager not realize what thousands can.

 

Perhaps the thousands are being a bit naïve. Playing to Cisse’s strengths isn’t that simple a matter.

 

The way I see it, at the top level, there’s a real problem with integrating a specialist finisher whose hold up and linking play isn’t that good. You can –

 

a) Play him with more of a target man, but then you have two players who are both looking for the same advanced, central position, albeit for different reasons.

 

b) Try a), but then ask one or the other to move into a secondary, withdrawn or wider role, but then you’re asking one of them to do something they’re not good at. That was the whole Ba / Cisse issue.

 

c) Ask the finisher to play as an all-round striker, which is what we seem to be doing at the moment, but that isn’t working well.

 

d) Don’t ask the finisher to do anything other than play on the shoulders of the CBs, and get the rest of the team to create chances for him. Trouble is, your system lacks the interchanging of positions that can help to open up a defence, and you can look a bit static. It can also feel like you’re playing with 10 men, particularly if you’re up against good opposition.

 

Apart from all that, to make plan d) worthwhile, your finisher has to put away a high percentage of the chances that come his way, and personally I don’t think Cisse’s conversion rate is good enough for that.

 

 

I think perhaps you're over-thinking it a little. I would say we need people capable of creating space and committing defenders. Ba used to do this for him, and Best did it for Ba pre-Cisse. We have Ben Arfa and Gouffran who can do that. Play Gouffran up ahead of Cisse or have Cisse flanked by both, and he will keep getting the ball around the D where he does what he does best.

 

That sounds like option d), but in practice, the advanced striker has to play some part in the build-up and link with his team-mates, and that's where Cisse's limitations are being exposed. You can't exempt a striker from those tasks and just tell him to wait for chances to come his way. So it's reasonable to consider whether we can get a striker who offers a better package.

 

Who would you suggest who we can afford and might be possibly willing to come?

 

Unlike some of you guys, I’m not well up on possible strikers from abroad, so I’m limited to domestic options.

 

I’d like Benteke or Lukaku, but I think both are outside our range.

 

Best realistic option that I know of is Hoilett. I’d try playing him and Gouffy with Ben Arfa / Marveaux breaking down the centre from a midfield diamond.

 

We could probably get Shane Long, who looks a good all-rounder, but West Brom would take us to the cleaners on the fee.

 

[The College Dropout]

Unbelievable is actually making decent points about him recently, TCD still seems to be comparing him to world class strikers and completely negating the other parts of his game to nothing in the process.

 

 

Unbelievable's been making excellent points and its pretty much the stuff i've been saying for months.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

We should definitely have gone for Long when he went to HBA, we needed him even then. For some reason it's one of the transfers I'm most gutted about.

[The College Dropout]

I'd take a big man with a bit of pace. Doesn't have to be particularly prolific. I wouldn't like us returning to 4-4-2 though.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I think HBA and Gouf either side of Cisse with Anita/Cabaye/Sissoko behind is so obviously our best bet. The look to get an alternative to Gouf and competition for Cisse.