alexthegreat Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I don't recall that many games where we played fluid attacking football last season. We looked very good away at West Brom last year, but I remember that as a counter attacking performance more than anything else. Maybe Stoke at home? I'd say we were quite a direct team overall last year, and you have to say it was effective. Possibly the best performance of last year was Man U at home. We were very direct, our centre forwards battered their centre halfs, our midfielders overpowered theirs. As far as I can see, everything is centred around the problem of getting Ba and Cisse to play together. Long term having one of them out on the wing in a 4-3-3 isn't a satisfactory answer. It would be far better to have them playing together in a 442, so it is understandable that Pardew should continue to try getting them to click. On the other hand, I don't think either can play as a target man. When it goes long the ball often doesn't stick to the frontmen (this is particularly true of Cisse at the moment), they also dont seem to have any understanding and are very similar players. The only options then are a) buy a target man and play one or the other. Its too late for that. Or b) start playing the ball on the deck. Man U could stick 2 of Welbeck, Hernandez and Rooney up front without any bother at all. The problem with that option is that I dont think our players have the ability to play that way. Man U behind their strikers they have a goalkeeper with excellent distribution, At the weekend they had 2 fullbacks who are very skilful, in Ferdinand they have a centre half who is very comfortable on the ball, and I think Evans is as well. Most importantly, all their midfield players can get the ball, turn, and find their man quickly with a pass. Fletcher and Carrick are maligned but they excel at this, and everyone knows how good Scholes is at passing. Consequently the ball pings about the pitch extremely accurately when they are in possession, and they don't really need a target man. If a striker makes a run it will be spotted. Compare to our starting XI: Santon can get his head up and see whats going on when he has the ball, Colo is very comfortable, HBA can do everything, and Cabaye is some way short of someone like Modric but I'd still say hes shown himself a decent passer. On the otherhand, the distribution from our goalkeeper is usually extremely poor compared to the keepers at top clubs, Simpson and Jonas always have their heads down when in possession. I don't think theres many players in the league less comfortable in possession than Williamson, and Tiote struggles to make any incisive passes. When around half the players are (relatively) poor at passing and seeing the play the ball will inevitably end up in the air sometimes, whatever Pardew's instructions are. We have a decent side but imo as it is at the moment we really need to either play on the counter attack or for one of the forwards to be a target man. Perhaps this could be addressed by integrating Anita and Marveaux into the team more frequently, but they both look some way off yet. If Pardew had got the players we were linked with maybe there would be more of a chance of decent football on the floor. Unfortunately at the moment we look like a team caught halfway between 2 styles of play, and I fear we will continue to muddle our way through until the next chance to change things in the transfer market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagten Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 As far as I can see, everything is centred around the problem of getting Ba and Cisse to play together. Long term having one of them out on the wing in a 4-3-3 isn't a satisfactory answer. It would be far better to have them playing together in a 442, so it is understandable that Pardew should continue to try getting them to click. No, you have missed the issue. The problem is not in their understating, but the weakness playing two upfront creates in our midfield. Subsequently, we have a tendency to become overrun in that area, and we are unable to control a game or attack effectively. 4-3-3 isn't a satisfactory solution for Demba Ba; however, it is for the team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Whilst the 433 resulted in some good results, I think the only games where we looked a good footballing side were WBA and Stoke, two sides with nothing to play for going through the end of season motions. Generally whether it was 442 or 433 last season we were functional, hard working, disciplined and took our chances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I have lost all the confidence in Pardew. It´s not only because the season have started poorly point wise, but most because be play worse and worse football. We don´t have a plan and is only trying to play to stop the other team. If we tried to play good football and still lost to bad players, then fair enough. But this is just crap, especially when he talks about controlling the game and play good football. If he just was honest and said that he love his long balls. But then you could really argue why we have bought the players we have and not tall guys like Stoke. I can't wait for you to piss off and 'support' Man City. Glad somebody else said it. Bloke drives me to distraction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Putting him on ignore made it much easier, actually seeing him post but the content being hidden felt quite nice Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Whilst the 433 resulted in some good results, I think the only games where we looked a good footballing side were WBA and Stoke, two sides with nothing to play for going through the end of season motions. Generally whether it was 442 or 433 last season we were functional, hard working, disciplined and took our chances. Liverpool? my problem with 4-4-2 for us is we get overrun in midfield don't really care what system it is but i think we should be playing 3 in the middle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Liverpool gave us a fairly decent game for the first hour. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 How many other teams in the league play 4-4-2? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagten Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Norwich, Reading, QPR and Stoke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Norwich, Reading, QPR and Stoke. West Brom used to under Hodgson, tight at the back good counter attacking in a way I wouldn't mind us playing (and we did quite a bit), Mancini seems to like playing Man City like it too oddly, but I suppose intent there is to push opposition deep into opposition half with Nasri and Silva cutting in. Pardew talks about controlling the game with midfield, doesn't realise as good as midfielders can be, being outnumbered is always asking for trouble. You can play two holders and hit on the counter against a 3 man midfield, you can't try and dictate the midfield though as they'll always have an extra man available for the ball. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Struggling sides. Norwich get outclassed as do reading so that's probably not fair. Stoke go long & QPR have been terrible. Agreed. Cabs & Tiote are good players but they will struggle against 3 other players. Even Redknapp knew you need a proper link man at the very least to compete in midfield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Even QPR hardly use it, although not a fair comparison as they are s****. I have seen Southampton use it on occasion too but they seem to prefer a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 more often than not. As for City it's a little different, Nasri and Silva come into midfield usually, Aguero drops deep and fullbacks push on and Barry and Toure drop in. With City there's a lot of movement and interchanging to really define it as any one system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I have lost all the confidence in Pardew. It´s not only because the season have started poorly point wise, but most because be play worse and worse football. We don´t have a plan and is only trying to play to stop the other team. If we tried to play good football and still lost to bad players, then fair enough. But this is just crap, especially when he talks about controlling the game and play good football. If he just was honest and said that he love his long balls. But then you could really argue why we have bought the players we have and not tall guys like Stoke. I can't wait for you to p*ss off and 'support' Man City. While I agree, why so hostile Dave? You should lead by example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketsbaia Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 4-4-2 is an archaic formation. It has been surpassed and we showed that after switching to 4-3-3 in the Spring. Yet now he's insisting on going back to square one - frustrating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 4-4-2 is an archaic formation. It has been surpassed and we showed that after switching to 4-3-3 in the Spring. Yet now he's insisting on going back to square one - frustrating. nowt wrong with 4-4-2 if you have the personnel for it....we haven't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 4-4-2 is an archaic formation. It has been surpassed and we showed that after switching to 4-3-3 in the Spring. Yet now he's insisting on going back to square one - frustrating. nowt wrong with 4-4-2 if you have the personnel for it....we haven't. Exactly, longball tactics may be less effective due to oppositions greater ability to control the game with the rise of possession football and reffing clamping down on rough tackles more than they used to. Still 4-4-2 provides greatest width. We don't play with that width, and anyway much rather see a formation that plays to Ben Arfa's strengths, where he can roam a bit and isn't forced to collect the ball at the half way line and do everything himself, as the strikers are too far forward to get the ball too and the midfield well marked by opposition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I suspect we defend better with 4-4-2, often using the wingers to help solidify the flanks. As a unit we were very difficult to break down last season even when the opposition had control of the ball for large periods. The possible reasons we are not emulating the past performances are either we got found out that we like to sit and defend for sometime before attacking in given periods of the game or we just are not as tight as like year. I suspect again it is a combination of both things, Likewise with most on this board, i think 4-3-3 will probably suit the players more as it would mean naturally more combinations of play even with Pardew limited amount of tactics. I assume 4-4-2 can work very out very well for our players too, but we need a system like Man city or Man united with alot of tactics implanted into the players with movement,bombing runs, covering of players. Only reason Man City play like the ergonomic 4-4-2 is because they want to win scoring and attacking the opponents. Only reason why Newcastle play the stagnate 4-4-2 is because we want to win by keep a tight unit and score when we take our chances. The Pure difference in Philosophy and the capability of the Managers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughesy Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 4-4-2 is an archaic formation. It has been surpassed and we showed that after switching to 4-3-3 in the Spring. Yet now he's insisting on going back to square one - frustrating. nowt wrong with 4-4-2 if you have the personnel for it....we haven't. Exactly - the whole idea that, with the right players, 4-4-2 is now obsolete is ridiculous. Each formation has advantages and disadvantages. 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 isn't necessarily a better formation than 4-4-2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotus Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Well, you can look at your players and use a system that best utilises their natural game, or if you're good enough, you coach them to fulfill a role in a system that you think would be most effective against the majority of the oppostion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Exactly - the whole idea that, with the right players, 4-4-2 is now obsolete is ridiculous. Each formation has advantages and disadvantages. 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 isn't necessarily a better formation than 4-4-2. agree, we don't have 4-4-2 players and shouldn't be playing it /end Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 wigan (a) last year was a good example people should look at, iirc we'd been raping teams with 4-3-3 for a few weeks and looking amazing but wigan lined up 3-5-2 and ripped us to pieces because they had the right players playing a system that suited them at about 3-0 down pards switched to 4-4-2 (iirc) or to a 5 midfield (?) to match them and we held them for a while but their suitability to their system was much better than our lack of one Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Indecision crept in during his 2nd year at WHam. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinho lad Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 4-3-3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Thought he'd been sacked there because of that bump Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanSkÃrare Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 “I’ve made it very, very clear that if we’re going to compete with the top clubs we need to pass the ball better, and we need to retain possession. If we’re going to retain possession, we need better players. Pretty much confirms the belief that many of us have: He doesn't trust Williamson/Simpson to pass the ball, i.e instructing them to hoof it long. I can't for one second imagine he'd say these things and not mean a single word of it, even if our game at this moment points to the complete opposite development in terms of style. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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