The thread about how we should play

[Guest ThievingMagpie]

Ok, so what advantages does four four two give us over the other system?

Lmao, really? 442 is incredibly flexible and can give you a midfield diamond in attack or two glorious banks of four in defence. Don't let England's failure with the 442 the last few decades and the subsequent slagging of the formation fool you. 442 can be as defensive or offensive as you like.

[ATB]

Ok, so what advantages does four four two give us over the other system?

 

I think the lack of counter arguments disturbing...

 

anyway. I basically agree that the most important thing is the system. But as said long time ago. It makes this discussion easier.

 

And again. What makes you think,  people that support our 4-4-2, is the way forward? And have you seen anything that suggest that it will work, or anything?

[Parky]

I trust Pards more than any manager since Sir Bobby i would just like to see us use the system that i believe suits our players the best.

 

It's just frustrating seeing Cabaye and Ben Arfa so deep but i do trust Pards and anything he thinks is right for this club i support.

 

All I can say to that is thank f*** you weren't around on here when we were managed by the likes of Souness and Fat Sam. If you call this constant bitching about his tactics trust and support I dread to think how you would hold up with a genuinely tactically clueless manager.

 

It's just frustrating because of the football we played at the end of last season.

 

It seems i'm coming across a lot definitely than what i'm trying to portray...... Fat Sam and Souness was different as i had lower expectations and it almost got to the stage where i just accepted what ever they did.

 

I'm not really bitching, just showing concern about the long term success of what 4-4-2 can bring us.

 

I said i support Pardew and i do but that doesn't mean i have to agree with every little thing he does, i believe in what he's trying to do but there's obviously a difference of opinion of what system is best for us.

 

Or am i not allowed to express an opinion? does this show a lack of faith in the manager?

 

There's more to this club than just systems and i believe in everything Pardew is doing from top to bottom i just feel we are using the wrong system.

 

I don't see no reason to bottle this up inside of me, i personally feel he's using the wrong system for the players we have but this doesn't mean i don't support him.

 

 

Fair comment.

 

Think the classic and most dangerous 442 normally involves proper wingers and we don't really have any of sufficent quality. In the 442 system they become the link to the attack.

 

When the mf sits deep (as you might when away at Chelsea) there is a disconnect between the MF and the strikers. Cisse and Ba also make similar runs and take up similar zones which compounds the problem (Ba used to drop off a lot more).

 

It's no surprise then that our most dangerous and cogent phases of play happenned when Hatem wandered into the middle and linked up the moves or when Santon became a faux winger. It's no good going on about ManU as they've always had world class wingers in recent history and also one striker rotates into midfield (normally Rooney). So it's not a FLAT 442.

 

Last year it was apparent that Pards liked 442 cause of the extra protection it gave to the fullbacks. It was also apparent that Ba and Cisse fed very efficently off the chances they had in games. They both had red hot spells. They will have good spells again, but we need to create more credible chances for them this year as they are a known quantity now and sides have re-adjusted on how to deal with them. There is a much bigger microscope on us this year and teams we play will be better prepared.

 

However Pardew has done the majority of million things a manager has to think about right. We have come a long way if losing to the CL winners is a dissapointment. Think about that.

[Dr Venkman]

I trust Pards more than any manager since Sir Bobby i would just like to see us use the system that i believe suits our players the best.

 

It's just frustrating seeing Cabaye and Ben Arfa so deep but i do trust Pards and anything he thinks is right for this club i support.

 

All I can say to that is thank f*** you weren't around on here when we were managed by the likes of Souness and Fat Sam. If you call this constant bitching about his tactics trust and support I dread to think how you would hold up with a genuinely tactically clueless manager.

 

It's just frustrating because of the football we played at the end of last season.

 

It seems i'm coming across a lot definitely than what i'm trying to portray...... Fat Sam and Souness was different as i had lower expectations and it almost got to the stage where i just accepted what ever they did.

 

I'm not really bitching, just showing concern about the long term success of what 4-4-2 can bring us.

 

I said i support Pardew and i do but that doesn't mean i have to agree with every little thing he does, i believe in what he's trying to do but there's obviously a difference of opinion of what system is best for us.

 

Or am i not allowed to express an opinion? does this show a lack of faith in the manager?

 

There's more to this club than just systems and i believe in everything Pardew is doing from top to bottom i just feel we are using the wrong system.

 

I don't see no reason to bottle this up inside of me, i personally feel he's using the wrong system for the players we have but this doesn't mean i don't support him.

 

 

Fair comment.

 

Think the classic and most dangerous 442 normally involves proper wingers and we don't really have any of sufficent quality. In the 442 system they become the link to the attack.

 

When the mf sits deep (as you might when away at Chelsea) there is a disconnect between the MF and the strikers. Cisse and Ba also make similar runs and take up similar zones which compounds the problem (Ba used to drop off a lot more).

 

It's no surprise then that our most dangerous and cogent phases of play happenned when Hatem wandered into the middle and linked up the moves or when Santon became a faux winger. It's no good going on about ManU as they've always had world class wingers in recent history and also one striker rotates into midfield (normally Rooney). So it's not a FLAT 442.

 

Last year it was apparent that Pards liked 442 cause of the extra protection it gave to the fullbacks. It was also apparent that Ba and Cisse fed very efficently off the chances they had in games. They both had red hot spells. They will have good spells again, but we need to create more credible chances for them this year as they are a known quantity now and sides have re-adjusted on how to deal with them. There is a much bigger microscope on us this year and teams we play will be better prepared.

 

However Pardew has done the majority of million things a manager has to think about right. We have come a long way if losing to the CL winners is a dissapointment. Think about that.

 

Great post. I'm concerned but ultimately I expect Pardew to sort it out.

[Mole_Toonfan]

I trust Pards more than any manager since Sir Bobby i would just like to see us use the system that i believe suits our players the best.

 

It's just frustrating seeing Cabaye and Ben Arfa so deep but i do trust Pards and anything he thinks is right for this club i support.

 

All I can say to that is thank f*** you weren't around on here when we were managed by the likes of Souness and Fat Sam. If you call this constant bitching about his tactics trust and support I dread to think how you would hold up with a genuinely tactically clueless manager.

 

It's just frustrating because of the football we played at the end of last season.

 

It seems i'm coming across a lot definitely than what i'm trying to portray...... Fat Sam and Souness was different as i had lower expectations and it almost got to the stage where i just accepted what ever they did.

 

I'm not really bitching, just showing concern about the long term success of what 4-4-2 can bring us.

 

I said i support Pardew and i do but that doesn't mean i have to agree with every little thing he does, i believe in what he's trying to do but there's obviously a difference of opinion of what system is best for us.

 

Or am i not allowed to express an opinion? does this show a lack of faith in the manager?

 

There's more to this club than just systems and i believe in everything Pardew is doing from top to bottom i just feel we are using the wrong system.

 

I don't see no reason to bottle this up inside of me, i personally feel he's using the wrong system for the players we have but this doesn't mean i don't support him.

 

 

Fair comment.

 

Think the classic and most dangerous 442 normally involves proper wingers and we don't really have any of sufficent quality. In the 442 system they become the link to the attack.

 

When the mf sits deep (as you might when away at Chelsea) there is a disconnect between the MF and the strikers. Cisse and Ba also make similar runs and take up similar zones which compounds the problem (Ba used to drop off a lot more).

 

It's no surprise then that our most dangerous and cogent phases of play happenned when Hatem wandered into the middle and linked up the moves or when Santon became a faux winger. It's no good going on about ManU as they've always had world class wingers in recent history and also one striker rotates into midfield (normally Rooney). So it's not a FLAT 442.

 

Last year it was apparent that Pards liked 442 cause of the extra protection it gave to the fullbacks. It was also apparent that Ba and Cisse fed very efficently off the chances they had in games. They both had red hot spells. They will have good spells again, but we need to create more credible chances for them this year as they are a known quantity now and sides have re-adjusted on how to deal with them. There is a much bigger microscope on us this year and teams we play will be better prepared.

 

However Pardew has done the majority of million things a manager has to think about right. We have come a long way if losing to the CL winners is a dissapointment. Think about that.

 

i have thought about this a lot since last night and while i do prefer 4-3-3 i can see ways where 4-4-2 works if Cabaye and Ben Arfa have more creative freedom and Ba and Cisse have a better understanding of when to drop deep and when to run in behind.

 

Those are the issues currently for me, i have faith that Pards can find a way of getting the best out of those players going forward no matter the system.

[Shayno]

4-4-2 is fine...when you have wingers like Lennon and Bale. We have simply signed too many players that don't fit into a 4-4-2 to continue playing it

[buzza]

I think we look much better with a 433, our midfield dominates more and we reagin possession quicker, with Santon overlapping it makes us much more fluid.

The 442 leaves us much more open in midfield and as in the first half yesterday we can be dominated relaitvely easily.

I agree with on eof the above comments that if you have Bale and Lennon or two fast wingers then you have much more success with a 442. We need to consilidate last seasons success and that was mostly achieved via 433.

 

[Dr Venkman]

Out of interest, how many times has Cisse and Ba up front in a 2 worked?

[Sifu]

Out of interest, how many times has Cisse and Ba up front in a 2 worked?

 

I would say the only time this partnership has been close to working was Cisse's debut against Villa. My gut feeling though is that the Ba-Cisse partnership will work in time...

[LFEE]

Out of interest, how many times has Cisse and Ba up front in a 2 worked?

 

I would say the only time this partnership has been close to working was Cisse's debut against Villa. My gut feeling though is that the Ba-Cisse partnership will work in time...

 

They don't appear to try and play as a pair which doesn't help matters... Always too far apart imo...

[buzza]

I prefer Ba out wide in the 433. It was just bad luck last season that he didn't put a few away, he had planty of chances...

Cisse uo front on his own ba and benarfa with quite liberal roles up front and two overlapping full backs...Barca watch out!!

If Marveuax starts shining again we have an instant change for Ba, or bring sammy on for a bit of direct attacking.

Much more flexibility to a 433 than a 442, imo our players fit a 433 better---

[Sifu]

Out of interest, how many times has Cisse and Ba up front in a 2 worked?

 

I would say the only time this partnership has been close to working was Cisse's debut against Villa. My gut feeling though is that the Ba-Cisse partnership will work in time...

 

They don't appear to try and play as a pair which doesn't help matters... Always too far apart imo...

 

If Pardew's intention is to play a 4-4-2 then I'm sure he is actively working on them to click as a pairing in training.

 

4-3-3 makes more logical sense though as it utilises all of our players to good effect. The good news is that the 4-3-3 is still very much in our plans so I'm not worried as such.

[Shak]

We have generally looked better in a 4-3-3 than in a 4-4-2, don't really think that's even open for debate tbh.

 

A major issue when we play 4-4-2 is that both of our first choice wingers are much more comfortable cutting inside than they are getting to the byline and whipping in crosses. This issue is compounded by our fullbacks. On one side Santon is another who is more comfortable cutting in and on the other we have Simpson who is incredibly limited offensively. The end result is that we have no width whatsoever.

 

This wouldn't be so bad if we had a striker who was good at linking midfield to attack, but we don't. Both Ba and Cisse play their best football in and around the box, neither are tremendous at either working the channels, dropping off the front and finding and creating space to play in or acting as a physical target man who can receive the ball with his back to goal and bring others into play that way.

 

If we're going to persist with this system then we absolutely need to get out there and sign a striker, I know they haven't played a lot together but Ba and Cisse don't look like a natural fit. If we sign Carroll then I fully expect he'll pretty much become our first choice striker with Ba and Cisse fighting to be his partner. Carroll the big physical target man (with Shola as backup in that role) with Ba or Cisse playing on the last shoulder of the defence.

 

We also need a fullback who can contribute more offensively. In our 4-4-2 the CM's both play quite deep. Any 2 of Cabaye, Tiote and Anita should provide a very good engine room and protect the defenders well. That should allow our fullbacks to bomb forward and provide overlaps for the likes of Ben Arfa, Jonas and Marveaux as they cut inside. Personally still feel we should move Santon to the right and bring in a LB, giving us good width on both sides. But I'd be very pleased with someone like Debuchy coming in too, obviously.

 

The reason we've looked better in a 4-3-3 is that these issues aren't really present. Jonas pushing in alongside Tiote allows Cabaye to play further forward and be the link man between midfield and attack, and Ba pushing out left and Ben Arfa pushing further up the field on the right helps us stretch teams. We still don't have tremendous width, but the positioning of our front three is much better than when we have Cisse and Ba standing beside each other in the middle trying not to get in each other's way.

 

My preference with our squad would have been to bring in a pacey winger/striker type, someone like a Hoilett for example, who could play on the left of a three. Tell Ba he's fighting for the central spot with Cisse and also for the left wing spot, he'd get plenty of games through the middle but he'd also have to play out left occasionally. Turn Jonas into a full time CM with he, Tiote, Cabaye and Anita fighting for three spots.

 

Doesn't seem like Pardew is going for that, and that's fine too if he thinks he's got a better way for us to play. I just don't see what that might be yet, and the fact that we improved significantly when we went to 4-3-3 against Spurs yet reverted straight to 4-4-2 against Chelsea makes you wonder what his logic is. Can't truly believe it's as simple as making Ba happy, no way I could see him playing an inferior system just to keep one player from sulking.

 

Hope he finds a way for his system to click in any case, still early doors this year and we've played two good teams. Villa game next week should tell us a lot.

[Dave]

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2018/didn27t20read20lol.png

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Any side lining up in a straight or flat 4-4-2 should be banned from playing the game permanently, it is the skirge of English football and one of the biggest reasons why we are shit at international football and why our players struggle technically.

[Dave]

Any side lining up in a straight or flat 4-4-2 should be banned from playing the game permanently, it is the skirge of English football and one of the biggest reasons why we are shit at international football and why our players struggle technically.

 

[Tooj]

[SteveMc]

Any side lining up in a straight or flat 4-4-2 should be banned from playing the game permanently, it is the skirge of English football and one of the biggest reasons why we are s*** at international football and why our players struggle technically.

 

 

[Interpolic]

                      Skirge

              Ain't          Got

                        No

Time                For                  442

          Bro      You        Know

                      This

[mrmojorisin75]

i can't pin it down but there's something wrong everytime i've seen us set up 4-4-2, something wrong with the movement throughout the team...i think it stems from the fact that the two CM's are either told to or feel they have to sit deep to protect the defence and this leaves them far too isolated from the attackers resulting in what was termed hoofball last year

 

whenever we switch to 4-3-3 from 4-4-2 the movement seems to come back and pass and move returns as cabaye is usually pushed further on and hba gets involved more

 

anyone think of an occasion we started 4-3-3 and switched back to 4-4-2 'cause it wasn't working?  i can't

 

imo for 4-4-2 you have to control the midfield either through physicality or possession and for whatever reason our MF rarely do that when playing 4-4-2

[ATB]

 

As said before. You also need two good wingers in a 4-4-2 and we don´t. It also helps to have two good fullbacks, and we don´t.

[Yorkie]

We have generally looked better in a 4-3-3 than in a 4-4-2, don't really think that's even open for debate tbh.

 

A major issue when we play 4-4-2 is that both of our first choice wingers are much more comfortable cutting inside than they are getting to the byline and whipping in crosses. This issue is compounded by our fullbacks. On one side Santon is another who is more comfortable cutting in and on the other we have Simpson who is incredibly limited offensively. The end result is that we have no width whatsoever.

 

This wouldn't be so bad if we had a striker who was good at linking midfield to attack, but we don't. Both Ba and Cisse play their best football in and around the box, neither are tremendous at either working the channels, dropping off the front and finding and creating space to play in or acting as a physical target man who can receive the ball with his back to goal and bring others into play that way.

 

If we're going to persist with this system then we absolutely need to get out there and sign a striker, I know they haven't played a lot together but Ba and Cisse don't look like a natural fit. If we sign Carroll then I fully expect he'll pretty much become our first choice striker with Ba and Cisse fighting to be his partner. Carroll the big physical target man (with Shola as backup in that role) with Ba or Cisse playing on the last shoulder of the defence.

 

We also need a fullback who can contribute more offensively. In our 4-4-2 the CM's both play quite deep. Any 2 of Cabaye, Tiote and Anita should provide a very good engine room and protect the defenders well. That should allow our fullbacks to bomb forward and provide overlaps for the likes of Ben Arfa, Jonas and Marveaux as they cut inside. Personally still feel we should move Santon to the right and bring in a LB, giving us good width on both sides. But I'd be very pleased with someone like Debuchy coming in too, obviously.

 

The reason we've looked better in a 4-3-3 is that these issues aren't really present. Jonas pushing in alongside Tiote allows Cabaye to play further forward and be the link man between midfield and attack, and Ba pushing out left and Ben Arfa pushing further up the field on the right helps us stretch teams. We still don't have tremendous width, but the positioning of our front three is much better than when we have Cisse and Ba standing beside each other in the middle trying not to get in each other's way.

 

My preference with our squad would have been to bring in a pacey winger/striker type, someone like a Hoilett for example, who could play on the left of a three. Tell Ba he's fighting for the central spot with Cisse and also for the left wing spot, he'd get plenty of games through the middle but he'd also have to play out left occasionally. Turn Jonas into a full time CM with he, Tiote, Cabaye and Anita fighting for three spots.

 

Doesn't seem like Pardew is going for that, and that's fine too if he thinks he's got a better way for us to play. I just don't see what that might be yet, and the fact that we improved significantly when we went to 4-3-3 against Spurs yet reverted straight to 4-4-2 against Chelsea makes you wonder what his logic is. Can't truly believe it's as simple as making Ba happy, no way I could see him playing an inferior system just to keep one player from sulking.

 

Hope he finds a way for his system to click in any case, still early doors this year and we've played two good teams. Villa game next week should tell us a lot.

 

Bang on. You've perfectly summed up why we're not suited to 4-4-2.

[Gallowgate Toon]

We lack balance in a 4-4-2 and ultimately rely on individual brilliance to pull us through, it's not sustainable. With a 3 man midfield we keep our defensive strength and are far more cohesive in attack, with multiple threats to the opposition. We're a team of technical footballers, 4-3-3 encourages their natural game.

 

    Tiote            Anita/Jonas

            Cabaye

 

Ben Arfa

                          Ba

              Cisse

 

This suits everyone in the majority, in my opinion.

[johnnypd]

We lack balance in a 4-4-2 and ultimately rely on individual brilliance to pull us through, it's not sustainable.

 

think that's Pardew main approach tbh. he's a pragmatist and at heart wants to keep the team nice and solid defensively and then hope with all our big hitters on the pitch that we have the end product or bits of brilliance to capitalise on our solidity if you get the ball into the right sort of areas. don't think he's all that into tactics going forward, in fact didn't someone say he leaves most of that to Carver?

[Mick]

Any side lining up in a straight or flat 4-4-2 should be banned from playing the game permanently, it is the skirge of English football and one of the biggest reasons why we are s*** at international football and why our players struggle technically.