The Managerial Merry Go Round™ - Van Nistelrooy to Leicester

[Novocastrian]

9 minutes ago, Bimpy474 said:

How an earth can any of you accuse Lampard and Gerrard of laziness, thinking they're too arrogant to try hard, just plucking that accusation out of thin air. They're just not good managers, it's doesn't mean they aren't trying or working as hard as they can. 

 

One thing iwould day is true, they got their jobs on who they are, not their ability as managers, and even then Lampard and Gerrard first jobs went OK, so it wasn't a complete surprise they got big jobs.

 

They're both just not good at the higher level. 

After playing for many years at the highest level and working with some of the most elite managers in the game it should be a given they ‘know’ about football. I think there’s an additional dimension to football management and tactics that only the deepest thinkers and strategists can unlock. The likes of Lampard and Gerrard are either lacking this faculty or they understand but cannot impart this knowledge to their players.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Novocastrian

[Bimpy474]

44 minutes ago, Novocastrian said:

After playing for many years at the highest level and working with some of the most elite managers in the game it should be a given they ‘know’ about football. I think there’s an additional dimension to football management and tactics that only the deepest thinkers and strategists can unlock. The likes of Lampard and Gerrard are either lacking this faculty or they understand but cannot impart this knowledge to their players.

 

 

 

 

That's it on the head, it's that lack of acumen to get your ideas and football knowledge over to players,  not laziness on their part imo. 

 

Past players who are now Managers like Rafa, Eddie and Mourinho who were never elite or higher level players for that matter, so despite never having the same playing experience, they can.

 

It's the same as some of the merry go round managers, until owners see those managers and their abilities are not good enough, they'll stay on carousel. And, continue to be picked for jobs for who they are. 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Bimpy474

[magvicar]

Obviously Lampard isn't going to turn down Chelsea and especially a big pay day for a short amount of time.

The thing is Lampard's walked back into a club he says he knows inside out and in a way he does in terms of the ground and training facilities and such, plus a fair chunk of players.

 

He's likely looked at the players bought and thought he could quickly turn them around and fire Chelsea into winning ways and be hailed a hero.

What he's likely not getting is that many of those players are mercenaries and a fair few of the older guard will be disillusioned.

Not an easy thing to turn around just with that.

The individual quality is one thing but getting those egos to gel and actually create a trench like attitude will be hard for most managers.

 

If the owner stops trying to play FIFA 22/23 and actually hands the reins to a manager to actually do a proper manager/coach role then Chelsea will become a force again.

Personally I hope he keeps playing his FIFA with live players and they sink like a big lead block.

[Ben]

1 hour ago, SUPERTOON said:

On another note, Gary O’Neil manger of the year if Bournemouth stay up ?

Good shout didn't Parker say the players weren't good enough 

[Yorkie]

1 hour ago, Bimpy474 said:

How an earth can any of you accuse Lampard and Gerrard of laziness, thinking they're too arrogant to try hard, just plucking that accusation out of thin air. They're just not good managers, it's doesn't mean they aren't trying or working as hard as they can. 

 

One thing iwould day is true, they got their jobs on who they are, not their ability as managers, and even then Lampard and Gerrard first jobs went OK, so it wasn't a complete surprise they got big jobs.

 

They're both just not good at the higher level. 

 

That really isn't the case with Gerrard. He only has to open his mouth to provide piles of evidence. 

[SUPERTOON]

8 minutes ago, Ben said:

Good shout didn't Parker say the players weren't good enough 

Yep, pretty much said they where down at the beginning of the season.

[The Butcher]

 

[astraguy]

 

[gbandit]

2 hours ago, Bimpy474 said:

How an earth can any of you accuse Lampard and Gerrard of laziness, thinking they're too arrogant to try hard, just plucking that accusation out of thin air. They're just not good managers, it's doesn't mean they aren't trying or working as hard as they can. 

 

One thing iwould day is true, they got their jobs on who they are, not their ability as managers, and even then Lampard and Gerrard first jobs went OK, so it wasn't a complete surprise they got big jobs.

 

They're both just not good at the higher level. 

The arrogance was clear in almost every press conference they did at Everton and Aston Villa respectively. Where does that arrogance come from? What have they achieved as managers? It’s lazy to come into a top job after having only got it because of an amazing footballing career and then act the big lad and throw your players under the bus like they both did

[SUPERTOON]

6 minutes ago, astraguy said:

 

That’s staggeringly bad ?

[Ben]

3 minutes ago, gbandit said:

The arrogance was clear in almost every press conference they did at Everton and Aston Villa respectively. Where does that arrogance come from? What have they achieved as managers? It’s lazy to come into a top job after having only got it because of an amazing footballing career and then act the big lad and throw your players under the bus like they both did

I think the comments of the Everton and Villa players since the departure of Lampard and Gerrard speaks volumes. Hollywood managers that turn up on match day and pick the team, take credit for the victories and blame others for defeats.

 

Top class selfish players don't make good managers.

[KaKa]

20 minutes ago, The Butcher said:

 

 

I genuinely think the managers themselves also think like this, and totally buy into this victim mindset, and so instead of looking at learning and improving on themselves, they just tell themselves they are being looked over because owners 'just like a foreign name'. My God man ... seriously.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by KaKa

[joeyt]

Not sure how Lampard was a selfish player

 

Gerrard possibly but he was still brilliant

[Ben]

Just now, joeyt said:

Not sure how Lampard was a selfish player

 

Gerrard possibly but he was still brilliant

I don't mean his play was selfish but at that level with personal staff looking after you and agents blowing your trumpet it breeds selfishness.

[joeyt]

Just now, Ben said:

I don't mean his play was selfish but at that level with personal staff looking after you and agents blowing your trumpet it breeds selfishness.

 

So just like every top class player?

 

There's plenty to bash Lampard and Gerrard about but they were unbelievable players

[Dr.Spaceman]

3 hours ago, Bimpy474 said:

How an earth can any of you accuse Lampard and Gerrard of laziness, thinking they're too arrogant to try hard, just plucking that accusation out of thin air. They're just not good managers, it's doesn't mean they aren't trying or working as hard as they can. 

 

One thing iwould day is true, they got their jobs on who they are, not their ability as managers, and even then Lampard and Gerrard first jobs went OK, so it wasn't a complete surprise they got big jobs.

 

They're both just not good at the higher level. 

 

Gerrard's a known coke addict, right? Probably affects him in some way.

[Ben]

23 minutes ago, joeyt said:

 

So just like every top class player?

 

There's plenty to bash Lampard and Gerrard about but they were unbelievable players

I said they were top class 

[SUPERTOON]

 

[Bimpy474]

3 hours ago, Yorkie said:

 

That really isn't the case with Gerrard. He only has to open his mouth to provide piles of evidence. 

 

Oh don't get me wrong i understand he's arrogant, it wasn't arrogant per se. It was whether he and Lampard are too arrogant and lazy to work hard to be good managers, because as players they worked very hard on their games and in games.

 

It wasn't about how they are as people, but their approach to management. Unless there's something i've missed neither seems to be how they're being described as managers, as in lazy and arrogant to even bother trying too hard.

[Bimpy474]

1 hour ago, Dr.Spaceman said:

 

Gerrard's a known coke addict, right? Probably affects him in some way.

 

I'm not his dealer, I wouldn't know

[Bimpy474]

2 hours ago, gbandit said:

The arrogance was clear in almost every press conference they did at Everton and Aston Villa respectively. Where does that arrogance come from? What have they achieved as managers? It’s lazy to come into a top job after having only got it because of an amazing footballing career and then act the big lad and throw your players under the bus like they both did

 

I do agree that both have thrown players under the bus to cover for their own failings as managers, Pardew being a past master at that, so we've seen that real up close.

 

Also while i don't wish to defend Lampard, but he didn't just walk into a top job, he took the Derby job and did quite well, but definitely got the Chelsea job too soon, and his limitations as a manager are there to be seen, and he has since got future roles because of who he is.  Gerrard i just think is a poor manager.

 

My argument is doubting their hard work in a management role is wrong, just because neither aren't very good at the top level doesn't mean they are too lazy and arrogant to work hard in the job. Because as players they both worked very hard. That's my point really, it's not about their personalties but their work ethic.

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Bimpy474

[Deuce]

Lampard should’ve stayed at Derby, or at least at that level. Ludicrous that he was given a PL job on the back of a single season of managerial experience, at a lower level no less. 

 

Hope the likes of Carrick and Kompany stick it out at their respective posts for the time being.

[Dr Venkman]

5 hours ago, Yorkie said:

 

That really isn't the case with Gerrard. He only has to open his mouth to provide piles of evidence. 

And we’ve seen more than our fair share of those managers at NUFC over the years, we can see them.

[rgk_lfc]

7 hours ago, Bimpy474 said:

How an earth can any of you accuse Lampard and Gerrard of laziness, thinking they're too arrogant to try hard, just plucking that accusation out of thin air. They're just not good managers, it's doesn't mean they aren't trying or working as hard as they can. 

 

One thing iwould day is true, they got their jobs on who they are, not their ability as managers, and even then Lampard and Gerrard first jobs went OK, so it wasn't a complete surprise they got big jobs.

 

They're both just not good at the higher level. 

 

It is all relative, isn't it?

 

After they failed at their first job, Rafa and Pako spent their money traveling economy to various clubs in Europe to learn more about coaching and tactics. They spent quite a bit of time arranging cones at AC Milan to absorb the knowledge of training sessions from Arrigo Sacchi. They spent time at Ajax and Feyenoord to understand their youth training philosophy. I believe Howe and his team spent time in Madrid to learn more about tactics at Atletico. I may be wrong but he spent time in the Netherlands too.

 

After quitting Dortmund, Klopp's "break" was in Portugal (Porto, Benfica, and other smaller clubs), absorbing their football culture and approach to youth development. Before taking up the Barca job, Pep traveled to Argentina to meet with Bielsa to discuss tactics, refine his thoughts, etc. Rafa started coaching his daughter's Under 8 football team when he was fired from Inter. It became an issue as parents and other coaches started complaining, and he was asked to step aside. 

 

Yes, Gerrard and Lampard work hard. I don't think they have the managerial acumen at the highest level, but I also don't think they have the humility and commitment to the craft which is needed to be successful at the highest level. There are different layers of working hard which I highly doubt they have. There is a huge chasm between working harder than us and spending every waking minute obsessing about how to improve by 0.0001%. 

 

I would be dazed if Gerrard or Lampard spent their time away from management working alongside coaches in AZ Alkmaar or Rotterdam, learning more about fitness management, attacking patterns, etc. 

[brummie]

I was listening to a Villa podcast this week, they had a long interview with Alan Hutton (who in general, came across very well, was treated pretty disgracefully by the club for two years).

 

Anyway, he was talking about his various Villa managers and he absolutely loved Steve Bruce. They asked him why, and it was all human pleasantry - always had time for you, treated the other staff at the club very well, man managed on a lower level (ie day to day) very well, etc. But absolutely no comment about how he set the team up, how he set us up to play.

 

Gerrard was very much out of that mould, except his day to day management tactic wasn't to slap the lads on the back and tell them to do their best, it was to pull the hardman act and play mind games with them. No tactical acumen whatsoever. We played the exact same shape literally every single match, every time. So ponderous and predictable. Even a manager who did alright for us, O'Neill was the same - he had one way to play, and never ever changed it from one match to the next, always the same thing, regardless of who the opposition was.

 

Now look at Emery. I read stuff about him and how he likes to play this way or that way, but the fact is, he changes it up a lot. He changes it to suit the opposition but also the players he has at his disposition. That's why, for example, we saw Dendoncker yesterday to muscle up a bit in midfield, and it's why we saw Moreno pushed even more aggressively upfield, as he'd identified that as a place we could get joy.

 

Not only that, our formation changes DURING THE MATCH. Imagine that, during the fucking match, and compare that with the above mentioned PFMs. We change shape depending on who has the ball and where it is on the pitch. When we're under pressure in our own half, we'll drop another man into the defensive line. Or even two sometimes. When we move forward, we change shape again. 

 

We used to go literally months without changing formation.

 

On top of this, the amount of preparation he does for each opponent is off the chart (as referenced in Roger's Profanisaurus this month, I saw ;-) ).

 

The difference is you get a lot of British managers who just are not capable mentally of doing that, because their playing days were all in an era where it was belt, braces and bluster and nothing more. Or there are those such as Gerrard or Lampard, who played all their careers in winning teams and seem to think that turning themselves into top managers is just a matter of adopting the personal language and habits of this manager or the other, whilst some other sap does the coaching for you. 

 

Gerrard is the sort who will subsequently not improve any of his players, and with us, he didn't. An actual proper manager like Emery has improved every single one of them in 18 games. He has only bought one player for us - our starting line up against Forest last week, except Moreno, every single one was bought by Dean Smith (except McGinn who was bought by Bruce).

 

The sycophantic Gerrard lovers in the media should look at facts like the above and wonder how he's ever going to get a good job in the game again, but he will, because just like Lampard he'll fall forward.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by brummie