The Managerial Merry Go Round™

[SUPERTOON]

 

[Bimpy474]

3 hours ago, Yorkie said:

 

That really isn't the case with Gerrard. He only has to open his mouth to provide piles of evidence. 

 

Oh don't get me wrong i understand he's arrogant, it wasn't arrogant per se. It was whether he and Lampard are too arrogant and lazy to work hard to be good managers, because as players they worked very hard on their games and in games.

 

It wasn't about how they are as people, but their approach to management. Unless there's something i've missed neither seems to be how they're being described as managers, as in lazy and arrogant to even bother trying too hard.

[Bimpy474]

1 hour ago, Dr.Spaceman said:

 

Gerrard's a known coke addict, right? Probably affects him in some way.

 

I'm not his dealer, I wouldn't know

[Bimpy474]

2 hours ago, gbandit said:

The arrogance was clear in almost every press conference they did at Everton and Aston Villa respectively. Where does that arrogance come from? What have they achieved as managers? It’s lazy to come into a top job after having only got it because of an amazing footballing career and then act the big lad and throw your players under the bus like they both did

 

I do agree that both have thrown players under the bus to cover for their own failings as managers, Pardew being a past master at that, so we've seen that real up close.

 

Also while i don't wish to defend Lampard, but he didn't just walk into a top job, he took the Derby job and did quite well, but definitely got the Chelsea job too soon, and his limitations as a manager are there to be seen, and he has since got future roles because of who he is.  Gerrard i just think is a poor manager.

 

My argument is doubting their hard work in a management role is wrong, just because neither aren't very good at the top level doesn't mean they are too lazy and arrogant to work hard in the job. Because as players they both worked very hard. That's my point really, it's not about their personalties but their work ethic.

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Bimpy474

[Deuce]

Lampard should’ve stayed at Derby, or at least at that level. Ludicrous that he was given a PL job on the back of a single season of managerial experience, at a lower level no less. 

 

Hope the likes of Carrick and Kompany stick it out at their respective posts for the time being.

[Dr Venkman]

5 hours ago, Yorkie said:

 

That really isn't the case with Gerrard. He only has to open his mouth to provide piles of evidence. 

And we’ve seen more than our fair share of those managers at NUFC over the years, we can see them.

[rgk_lfc]

7 hours ago, Bimpy474 said:

How an earth can any of you accuse Lampard and Gerrard of laziness, thinking they're too arrogant to try hard, just plucking that accusation out of thin air. They're just not good managers, it's doesn't mean they aren't trying or working as hard as they can. 

 

One thing iwould day is true, they got their jobs on who they are, not their ability as managers, and even then Lampard and Gerrard first jobs went OK, so it wasn't a complete surprise they got big jobs.

 

They're both just not good at the higher level. 

 

It is all relative, isn't it?

 

After they failed at their first job, Rafa and Pako spent their money traveling economy to various clubs in Europe to learn more about coaching and tactics. They spent quite a bit of time arranging cones at AC Milan to absorb the knowledge of training sessions from Arrigo Sacchi. They spent time at Ajax and Feyenoord to understand their youth training philosophy. I believe Howe and his team spent time in Madrid to learn more about tactics at Atletico. I may be wrong but he spent time in the Netherlands too.

 

After quitting Dortmund, Klopp's "break" was in Portugal (Porto, Benfica, and other smaller clubs), absorbing their football culture and approach to youth development. Before taking up the Barca job, Pep traveled to Argentina to meet with Bielsa to discuss tactics, refine his thoughts, etc. Rafa started coaching his daughter's Under 8 football team when he was fired from Inter. It became an issue as parents and other coaches started complaining, and he was asked to step aside. 

 

Yes, Gerrard and Lampard work hard. I don't think they have the managerial acumen at the highest level, but I also don't think they have the humility and commitment to the craft which is needed to be successful at the highest level. There are different layers of working hard which I highly doubt they have. There is a huge chasm between working harder than us and spending every waking minute obsessing about how to improve by 0.0001%. 

 

I would be dazed if Gerrard or Lampard spent their time away from management working alongside coaches in AZ Alkmaar or Rotterdam, learning more about fitness management, attacking patterns, etc. 

[brummie]

I was listening to a Villa podcast this week, they had a long interview with Alan Hutton (who in general, came across very well, was treated pretty disgracefully by the club for two years).

 

Anyway, he was talking about his various Villa managers and he absolutely loved Steve Bruce. They asked him why, and it was all human pleasantry - always had time for you, treated the other staff at the club very well, man managed on a lower level (ie day to day) very well, etc. But absolutely no comment about how he set the team up, how he set us up to play.

 

Gerrard was very much out of that mould, except his day to day management tactic wasn't to slap the lads on the back and tell them to do their best, it was to pull the hardman act and play mind games with them. No tactical acumen whatsoever. We played the exact same shape literally every single match, every time. So ponderous and predictable. Even a manager who did alright for us, O'Neill was the same - he had one way to play, and never ever changed it from one match to the next, always the same thing, regardless of who the opposition was.

 

Now look at Emery. I read stuff about him and how he likes to play this way or that way, but the fact is, he changes it up a lot. He changes it to suit the opposition but also the players he has at his disposition. That's why, for example, we saw Dendoncker yesterday to muscle up a bit in midfield, and it's why we saw Moreno pushed even more aggressively upfield, as he'd identified that as a place we could get joy.

 

Not only that, our formation changes DURING THE MATCH. Imagine that, during the fucking match, and compare that with the above mentioned PFMs. We change shape depending on who has the ball and where it is on the pitch. When we're under pressure in our own half, we'll drop another man into the defensive line. Or even two sometimes. When we move forward, we change shape again. 

 

We used to go literally months without changing formation.

 

On top of this, the amount of preparation he does for each opponent is off the chart (as referenced in Roger's Profanisaurus this month, I saw ;-) ).

 

The difference is you get a lot of British managers who just are not capable mentally of doing that, because their playing days were all in an era where it was belt, braces and bluster and nothing more. Or there are those such as Gerrard or Lampard, who played all their careers in winning teams and seem to think that turning themselves into top managers is just a matter of adopting the personal language and habits of this manager or the other, whilst some other sap does the coaching for you. 

 

Gerrard is the sort who will subsequently not improve any of his players, and with us, he didn't. An actual proper manager like Emery has improved every single one of them in 18 games. He has only bought one player for us - our starting line up against Forest last week, except Moreno, every single one was bought by Dean Smith (except McGinn who was bought by Bruce).

 

The sycophantic Gerrard lovers in the media should look at facts like the above and wonder how he's ever going to get a good job in the game again, but he will, because just like Lampard he'll fall forward.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by brummie

[The College Dropout]

I don’t have concrete evidence or proof.  But there is a lack of thought and application to the managerial approach of 99% of English managers.  
 

There’s not been a genuine world class English manager in my lifetime. There’s something deep rooted in the English footballing culture that is not curious about innovating ANYTHING about the game on the pitch.
 

Direct opposition to Italy where it seems like every decade a manager or team popularises something that changes football management in some aspect. 
 

Call it laziness, lack of intellectual curiosity it’s something.  I don’t even think it’s just tactically - it’s every aspect.  

[brummie]

14 minutes ago, rgk_lfc said:

 

 

Yes, Gerrard and Lampard work hard. I don't think they have the managerial acumen at the highest level, but I also don't think they have the humility and commitment to the craft which is needed to be successful at the highest level. There are different layers of working hard which I highly doubt they have. There is a huge chasm between working harder than us and spending every waking minute obsessing about how to improve by 0.0001%. 

 

I would be dazed if Gerrard or Lampard spent their time away from management working alongside coaches in AZ Alkmaar or Rotterdam, learning more about fitness management, attacking patterns, etc. 

 

Absolutely this (btw Pako Ayesteran is Emery's number 2).

 

According to our players, Gerrard did literally none of the training, Beale did it all. 

 

As for detail, I read the other day Emery has got the club to agree to build an annexe to the training ground so players can stay there overnight if needed. That's his level of detailed commitment.

 

Imagine Gerrard's reaction to a suggestion like that.

[Sempiternal]

3 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

I don’t have concrete evidence or proof.  But there is a lack of thought and application to the managerial approach of 99% of English managers.  
 

There’s not been a genuine world class English manager in my lifetime. There’s something deep rooted in the English footballing culture that is not curious about innovating ANYTHING about the game on the pitch.
 

Direct opposition to Italy where it seems like every decade a manager or team popularises something that changes football management in some aspect. 
 

Call it laziness, lack of intellectual curiosity it’s something.  I don’t even think it’s just tactically - it’s every aspect.  

Completely agree, I think it’s cultural.

[brummie]

I think English football culture is actually extremely innovative - only it gets expressed by taking the best coaches from abroad and bringing them here.

[The College Dropout]

When you listen to English footballers talk about managers - even the elite ones - it’s nearly always about man management. 
 

Gerrard and Carragher don’t have many nice things to say about Rafa because Rafa didn’t massage their ego’s. Lampard gushes about Carlo because he’s the master man manager. Carlo is a Don of course but it shows what they value most from a coach and what their takeaways are. 

[The College Dropout]

3 minutes ago, brummie said:

I think English football culture is actually extremely innovative - only it gets expressed by taking the best coaches from abroad and bringing them here.

That’s just money. And the owners are foreign. 
 

I mean the actual culture of English ‘footballing men’. I think the Brighton owner is innovative in his approach to footballing administration and ownership.  

[KaKa]

28 minutes ago, rgk_lfc said:

 

Yes, Gerrard and Lampard work hard. I don't think they have the managerial acumen at the highest level, but I also don't think they have the humility and commitment to the craft which is needed to be successful at the highest level. There are different layers of working hard which I highly doubt they have. There is a huge chasm between working harder than us and spending every waking minute obsessing about how to improve by 0.0001%. 

 

 

15 minutes ago, brummie said:

 

The difference is you get a lot of British managers who just are not capable mentally of doing that, because their playing days were all in an era where it was belt, braces and bluster and nothing more. Or there are those such as Gerrard or Lampard, who played all their careers in winning teams and seem to think that turning themselves into top managers is just a matter of adopting the personal language and habits of this manager or the other, whilst some other sap does the coaching for you. 

.

 

Great posts.

 

I think the points above are pretty much the main points that nail this whole thing.

 

It really is a damned shame as they must both have so much access to go and spend some time at various clubs to learn and pick the brains of some top managers.

 

To see what the likes of Kompany and Xabi Alonso are doing in comparison is pretty embarrassing.

[The College Dropout]

27 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

 

Great posts.

 

I think the points above are pretty much the main points that nail this whole thing.

 

It really is a damned shame as they must both have so much access to go and spend some time at various clubs to learn and pick the brains of some top managers.

 

To see what the likes of Kompany and Xabi Alonso are doing in comparison is pretty embarrassing.

I think it’s much deeper than that. They would need to change their entire perspective on football. 

[Sempiternal]

Carrick is possibly going to be the exception. Took a less glamorous job, seems a pretty switched in guy, open to new stuff 

[rgk_lfc]

1 hour ago, The College Dropout said:

I don’t have concrete evidence or proof.  But there is a lack of thought and application to the managerial approach of 99% of English managers.  
 

There’s not been a genuine world class English manager in my lifetime. There’s something deep rooted in the English footballing culture that is not curious about innovating ANYTHING about the game on the pitch.
 

Direct opposition to Italy where it seems like every decade a manager or team popularises something that changes football management in some aspect. 
 

Call it laziness, lack of intellectual curiosity it’s something.  I don’t even think it’s just tactically - it’s every aspect.  

 

One very basic thing we can look for is how many of the PFM's are multi-lingual. Because language and communication are key to managing a diverse squad.

 

I know their stock is low, but Rodgers can speak fluently in Spanish, French, and English. Potter can speak multiple European languages. I can't talk about Howe, but given his obsession with Spanish football tactics and training methods, I would be surprised if he cannot speak Spanish at a basic. Not surprised the most progressive British coaches are multi-lingual.

 

Most of the great European coaches can speak around four languages. I know there are some advantages as some of the mainland languages are related and easier to pick up if you know one. But still. For example, Pep and Xabi Alonso can speak Spanish, Italian, German, and English. And they put effort into being fluent in German before they went to Germany. Alonso was answering questions in English at 21 at press conferences which he picked up in a month or two. 

 

What does it have to do with football coaching? It indicates how much they value the communication of ideas and how much effort they are willing to put in.

 

In comparison, most of the PFMs can barely speak English. If you take a college-level English essay assignment and hand it to several managers, I am sure Mourinho, Rafa, and Ancelotti will turn in a significantly more articulate English essay than Gerrard and Lampard. I bet "Good ebening" Emery turns in a better essay than PFMs. 

 

I know some of you will retort by saying that Pardew can speak Spanish. But I am sure he is as obnoxious in Spanish as in English. 

[Sempiternal]

2 minutes ago, rgk_lfc said:

 

One very basic thing we can look for is how many of the PFM's are multi-lingual. Because language and communication are key to managing a diverse squad.

 

I know their stock is low, but Rodgers can speak fluently in Spanish, French, and English. Potter can speak multiple European languages. I can't talk about Howe, but given his obsession with Spanish football tactics and training methods, I would be surprised if he cannot speak Spanish at a basic. Not surprised the most progressive British coaches are multi-lingual.

 

Most of the great European coaches can speak around four languages. I know there are some advantages as some of the mainland languages are related and easier to pick up if you know one. But still. For example, Pep and Xabi Alonso can speak Spanish, Italian, German, and English. And they put effort into being fluent in German before they went to Germany. Alonso was answering questions in English at 21 at press conferences which he picked up in a month or two. 

 

What does it have to do with football coaching? It indicates how much they value the communication of ideas and how much effort they are willing to put in.

 

In comparison, most of the PFMs can barely speak English. If you take a college-level English essay assignment and hand it to several managers, I am sure Mourinho, Rafa, and Ancelotti will turn in a significantly more articulate English essay than Gerrard and Lampard. I bet "Good ebening" Emery turns in a better essay than PFMs. 

 

I know some of you will retort by saying that Pardew can speak Spanish. But I am sure he is as obnoxious in Spanish as in English. 

 
I genuinely did not know Pardew spoke Spanish. I agree with you though. Even on a basic level learning languages demonstrates your are open to expanding your skills, no

matter what that’s a net positive 

[rgk_lfc]

6 minutes ago, Sempiternal said:

 
I genuinely did not know Pardew spoke Spanish. I agree with you though. Even on a basic level learning languages demonstrates your are open to expanding your skills, no

matter what that’s a net positive 

 

Well, Pardew claimed he did as he "helped" Mascherano and Tevez settle in London through his knowledge of Spanish. The fact that they couldn't wait to get away from him, suggests otherwise, or at least he was as bad at Spanish communication as at English. 

[Rich]

21 minutes ago, rgk_lfc said:

 

Well, Pardew claimed he did as he "helped" Mascherano and Tevez settle in London through his knowledge of Spanish. The fact that they couldn't wait to get away from him, suggests otherwise, or at least he was as bad at Spanish communication as at English. 

 

Of course he did.

[joeyt]

25 minutes ago, rgk_lfc said:

 

Well, Pardew claimed he did as he "helped" Mascherano and Tevez settle in London through his knowledge of Spanish. The fact that they couldn't wait to get away from him, suggests otherwise, or at least he was as bad at Spanish communication as at English. 

 

If it went beyond "Dos cervezas por favor" I'd be shocked

[gbandit]

Donde esta el clunge 

[joeyt]

The King of communicating in a different language

 

[rgk_lfc]

8 minutes ago, Rich said:

 

Of course he did.

 

Alan Pardew has been brushing up on his Spanish as West Ham prepare for their first big European jaunt for seven years.

And in a bid to make new Argentinian signings Javier Mascherano and Carlos Tevez feel at home, Pardew has set his staff a Spanish test for the end of this week.

'I have been speaking Spanish this week,' Pardew revealed proudly.

'It all went down well with the lads and all the staff have a little test on a few football terms!'

 

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/pardew-sets-spanish-test-2313362