Toonpack Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 So, in reality we should just close the shop then, whats the point? I hate a losers attitude like this. We should try to maximize our potential at all times. Get the best manager possible. Build the best squad. Do it by the means we have, but do not tell me to accept that Liverpool and Spurs are beyond our reach. FFS try to achieve something! With this attitude its impressive you guys get out of bed each morning. You've kind of missed the point. Of course we should try to get the best manager possible. But what is 'possible'? Selected by Mike Ashley and Joe Kinnear? And of course we should build the best squad possible. But what is possible? Within our financial means? I think you are not getting my point, but i might misunderstood your post? My point is that you guys have accepted that the club have no ambition, and defend that on this forum. For me, as a football fan this is unbelievable. Toonpack writes this: Chelsea & Man City have near unlimited funds Spurs had the Bale money. Liverpool have a billionaire owner willing to spend plus cheapest season ticket £710 Arsenal, cheapest ticket for most games £60 Man Utd 75,000 average plus large global glory seeking fan base. You agree, almost like its not a chance in hell to compete with the top 6 in PL. Our owner is a c***, so is our director of football, and our manager is average at best. But its not impossible to compete if we went for it and ran the club like a proper football club. I accept that this very day, today, we cannot compete with the likely top four, but over time by continuing to build that we can. That's why I'm optimistic about the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Whilst I'm obviously annoyed that we never invest when we're clearly in a position to do so, I don't think that saying "if we spend this or that we'd be in such-and-such a position." We could spend a comparatively meagre amount to the likes of City and Co, and still be in with a shout of 4th. Replace the current manager with a decent one and add a couple more players - we'd have been in with a shout of 4th. I'm hesitant to offer credit but one thing I 'agree' with regarding our transfer model is that you don't need to spend ridiculous amounts to progress. A team is worth more than the sum of its parts, typething. Crossed wires there though cos, again, it's not like their stance on frugality is related to actual footballing philosophy. Aye. On the surface our transfer policy is sound imo, we've made some really, really good buys and, tbf, I don't think we've signed someone yet that could be considered a disaster? The worst arguably Cisse who pushed us into Europe. I genuinely believe that, whilst still operating the way we do now, we'd be challenging the Champions League consistently if we'd just go out and fill out the gaping holes in the squad with quality, both for the first team and in reserve. Spend a good £30m or so on the players (or less if we can) we need and then patch up with frugality in the future, in the same fashion we are now, only we'll be maintaining a full squad as opposed to patching up 3/4 of one. I agree. I don't know if it makes me an apologist (I hope it doesn't), but I think a lot of what 'the board' do is commendable and sensible, especially in this era where money is fucking everything. It's a moot point but, for example, I would rather achieve City's success via policies like ours than a route like theirs. I had a FIFA career once where a glitch gave my team £12billion to spend, and I won fucking everything. That's no different to irl City iyam. The problem with our transfer policy is that it's too rigid and is motivated by the wrong reasons. Ashley's egotistical at the end of the day; he doesn't care about the club - that's where it's flawed and why we'll never achieve anything with him. If the transfer policy actually married with a genuine desire to succeed, we'd probably be onto a good thing. We'd probably have a better DoF and manager to oversee the whole thing, for a start. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Five o Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 We are where we should be give or take a couple of places? Based on what exactly? Based on money basically. Based on the money we are spending we are doing fantastically well, I'd agree. The problem is we have spent -38 million on transfers since Ashley came in. MINUS 38 million! To be in the top end of the table is no less than a miracle considering how we're being bled dry. Which leads to the simple conclusion our scouting is doing extremely well. Such a shame we have a billionaire owner who is unwilling to spend some money, not even money generated by the club itself. Imagine where we could be with a little bit of ambition, a little bit of trust in the scouting team and a little bit of investment in the squad and in a decent manager. We could be challenging up there, no doubt. We just choose not too. Indefensible from a fan's perspective, yet here you are, posting like a lunatic all day long on deadline telling people off who are understandably venting their frustration. I agree it would be nice if he would spend some of his own money, but unless the accounts show year-on-year profits I can't see how he isn't spending the money we generate. I agree a football club should reinvest all its profits, but we haven't really made any. Even if he spent £60 Million we'd likely be around where we are now in the league, given: Chelsea & Man City have near unlimited funds Spurs had the Bale money. Liverpool have a billionaire owner willing to spend plus cheapest season ticket £710 Arsenal, cheapest ticket for most games £60 Man Utd 75,000 average plus large global glory seeking fan base. There is that, but I didn't want to bring it up. So, in reality we should just close the shop then, whats the point? I hate a losers attitude like this. We should try to maximize our potential at all times. Get the best manager possible. Build the best squad. Do it by the means we have, but do not tell me to accept that Liverpool and Spurs are beyond our reach. FFS try to achieve something! With this attitude its impressive you guys get out of bed each morning. They're not, eventually, but they are today in terms of draw/spending power. It's not a loser mentality at all, it's a realism that progress will be slow and steady, but I do believe we are making progress, the squad of players we have would support that. There ain't no magic bullet, even if Ashley splurged £100 Mill there's nothing guaranteed. Last 5 seasons: 20 Newcastle -£45,000,000 Do you think we could have had a stronger squad if we ran even? Are we striving to achieve our max potential do you think? Maybe a cup run, or is it to little income there, okay to not prioritize it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You agree, almost like its not a chance in hell to compete with the top 6 in PL. Our owner is a cunt, so is our director of football, and our manager is average at best. But its not impossible to compete if we went for it and ran the club like a proper football club. I just don't know what we could realistically do (with Mike Ashley as owner) to break the domination of those clubs ToonPack mentioned. I mean, we are competing with the top 6 now, what I don't know is how it's possible to compete with the top 3 or 4 without spending way beyond our means on a regular basis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andymc1 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You agree, almost like its not a chance in hell to compete with the top 6 in PL. Our owner is a c***, so is our director of football, and our manager is average at best. But its not impossible to compete if we went for it and ran the club like a proper football club. I just don't know what we could realistically do (with Mike Ashley as owner) to break the domination of those clubs ToonPack mentioned. I mean, we are competing with the top 6 now, what I don't know is how it's possible to compete with the top 3 or 4 without spending way beyond our means on a regular basis. Spending way beyond our means!!!! Fucking hell man - we haven't spent a penny in two full transfer windows man. We aren't asking for huge amounts to be spent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Whilst I'm obviously annoyed that we never invest when we're clearly in a position to do so, I don't think that saying "if we spend this or that we'd be in such-and-such a position." Nett last 5 seasons: 1 Manchester City £479,950,000 2 Chelsea £269,759,000 3 Manchester United £138,750,000 4 Stoke City £91,175,000 5 Liverpool £89,400,000 6 Aston Villa £86,000,000 7 Southampton £60,750,000 8 Hull City £47,775,000 9 Sunderland £46,930,000 10 Cardiff City £40,470,000 11 West Ham £30,550,000 12 Norwich City £21,650,000 13 Swansea £18,745,000 14 West Bromwich Albion £14,726,000 15 Crystal Palace £11,950,000 16 Fulham £10,880,000 17 Tottenham £3,850,000 18 Arsenal -£4,125,000 19 Everton -£12,315,500 20 Newcastle -£45,000,000 Just proves my point, really. Obviously, if you want to challenge for the quadruple, you'll need to spend closer to half a billion. But 4th place - for example - is within our grasp by maintaining our transfer policy, save for a radical adjustment in mentality towards the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You agree, almost like its not a chance in hell to compete with the top 6 in PL. Our owner is a cunt, so is our director of football, and our manager is average at best. But its not impossible to compete if we went for it and ran the club like a proper football club. I just don't know what we could realistically do (with Mike Ashley as owner) to break the domination of those clubs ToonPack mentioned. I mean, we are competing with the top 6 now, what I don't know is how it's possible to compete with the top 3 or 4 without spending way beyond our means on a regular basis. We were almost competing with them earlier this season when we beat Chelsea. By competing I don't mean winning a CL spot, but at least have the top 4 looking over their shoulder. I don't think we were too far way from that at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You agree, almost like its not a chance in hell to compete with the top 6 in PL. Our owner is a c***, so is our director of football, and our manager is average at best. But its not impossible to compete if we went for it and ran the club like a proper football club. I just don't know what we could realistically do (with Mike Ashley as owner) to break the domination of those clubs ToonPack mentioned. I mean, we are competing with the top 6 now, what I don't know is how it's possible to compete with the top 3 or 4 without spending way beyond our means on a regular basis. Spending way beyond our means!!!! Fucking hell man - we haven't spent a penny in two full transfer windows man. We aren't asking for huge amounts to be spent. Christ almighty. Earth to Andy... I know that very well, what I'm saying is - it is understandable that we spend little when the requirements to move beyond our current position are so large. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRD Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Wish LTF had never fkn started it! Who's that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You agree, almost like its not a chance in hell to compete with the top 6 in PL. Our owner is a cunt, so is our director of football, and our manager is average at best. But its not impossible to compete if we went for it and ran the club like a proper football club. I just don't know what we could realistically do (with Mike Ashley as owner) to break the domination of those clubs ToonPack mentioned. I mean, we are competing with the top 6 now, what I don't know is how it's possible to compete with the top 3 or 4 without spending way beyond our means on a regular basis. We were almost competing with them earlier this season when we beat Chelsea. By competing I don't mean winning a CL spot, but at least have the top 4 looking over their shoulder. I don't think we were too far way from that at all. Yeah, I know what you mean, we would have an outside chance. But that's obviously not enough for Ashley to decide to go for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Whilst I'm obviously annoyed that we never invest when we're clearly in a position to do so, I don't think that saying "if we spend this or that we'd be in such-and-such a position." We could spend a comparatively meagre amount to the likes of City and Co, and still be in with a shout of 4th. Replace the current manager with a decent one and add a couple more players - we'd have been in with a shout of 4th. I'm hesitant to offer credit but one thing I 'agree' with regarding our transfer model is that you don't need to spend ridiculous amounts to progress. A team is worth more than the sum of its parts, typething. Crossed wires there though cos, again, it's not like their stance on frugality is related to actual footballing philosophy. Aye. On the surface our transfer policy is sound imo, we've made some really, really good buys and, tbf, I don't think we've signed someone yet that could be considered a disaster? The worst arguably Cisse who pushed us into Europe. I genuinely believe that, whilst still operating the way we do now, we'd be challenging the Champions League consistently if we'd just go out and fill out the gaping holes in the squad with quality, both for the first team and in reserve. Spend a good £30m or so on the players (or less if we can) we need and then patch up with frugality in the future, in the same fashion we are now, only we'll be maintaining a full squad as opposed to patching up 3/4 of one. I agree. I don't know if it makes me an apologist (I hope it doesn't), but I think a lot of what 'the board' do is commendable and sensible, especially in this era where money is fucking everything. It's a moot point but, for example, I would rather achieve City's success via policies like ours than a route like theirs. I had a FIFA career once where a glitch gave my team £12billion to spend, and I won fucking everything. That's no different to irl City iyam. The problem with our transfer policy is that it's too rigid and is motivated by the wrong reasons. Ashley's egotistical at the end of the day; he doesn't care about the club - that's where it's flawed and why we'll never achieve anything with him. If the transfer policy actually married with a genuine desire to succeed, we'd probably be onto a good thing. We'd probably have a better DoF and manager to oversee the whole thing, for a start. Aye I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head for me too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Whilst I'm obviously annoyed that we never invest when we're clearly in a position to do so, I don't think that saying "if we spend this or that we'd be in such-and-such a position." Nett last 5 seasons: 1 Manchester City £479,950,000 2 Chelsea £269,759,000 3 Manchester United £138,750,000 4 Stoke City £91,175,000 5 Liverpool £89,400,000 6 Aston Villa £86,000,000 7 Southampton £60,750,000 8 Hull City £47,775,000 9 Sunderland £46,930,000 10 Cardiff City £40,470,000 11 West Ham £30,550,000 12 Norwich City £21,650,000 13 Swansea £18,745,000 14 West Bromwich Albion £14,726,000 15 Crystal Palace £11,950,000 16 Fulham £10,880,000 17 Tottenham £3,850,000 18 Arsenal -£4,125,000 19 Everton -£12,315,500 20 Newcastle -£45,000,000 Just proves my point, really. Obviously, if you want to challenge for the quadruple, you'll need to spend closer to half a billion. But 4th place - for example - is within our grasp by maintaining our transfer policy, save for a radical adjustment in mentality towards the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andymc1 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You agree, almost like its not a chance in hell to compete with the top 6 in PL. Our owner is a c***, so is our director of football, and our manager is average at best. But its not impossible to compete if we went for it and ran the club like a proper football club. I just don't know what we could realistically do (with Mike Ashley as owner) to break the domination of those clubs ToonPack mentioned. I mean, we are competing with the top 6 now, what I don't know is how it's possible to compete with the top 3 or 4 without spending way beyond our means on a regular basis. Spending way beyond our means!!!! f***ing hell man - we haven't spent a penny in two full transfer windows man. We aren't asking for huge amounts to be spent. Christ almighty. Earth to Andy... I know that very well, what I'm saying is - it is understandable that we spend little when the requirements to move beyond our current position are so large. We might as well give in now. Pack it all in and follow Newcastle Falcons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Five o Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You agree, almost like its not a chance in hell to compete with the top 6 in PL. Our owner is a cunt, so is our director of football, and our manager is average at best. But its not impossible to compete if we went for it and ran the club like a proper football club. I just don't know what we could realistically do (with Mike Ashley as owner) to break the domination of those clubs ToonPack mentioned. I mean, we are competing with the top 6 now, what I don't know is how it's possible to compete with the top 3 or 4 without spending way beyond our means on a regular basis. What i ask for, is for the club to spend what we have, to try to maximize our potential. Nothing more, nothing less. Its the attitude again, you believe its not possible, and accept that. I believe we do not know before we at least try, try each fucking day to run the club as good as absolutely possible. Spend what we have to improve the squad, we might not get a top 4, but i can sleep better at night knowing we at least gave it a go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You agree, almost like its not a chance in hell to compete with the top 6 in PL. Our owner is a c***, so is our director of football, and our manager is average at best. But its not impossible to compete if we went for it and ran the club like a proper football club. I just don't know what we could realistically do (with Mike Ashley as owner) to break the domination of those clubs ToonPack mentioned. I mean, we are competing with the top 6 now, what I don't know is how it's possible to compete with the top 3 or 4 without spending way beyond our means on a regular basis. Spending way beyond our means!!!! Fucking hell man - we haven't spent a penny in two full transfer windows man. We aren't asking for huge amounts to be spent. Christ almighty. Earth to Andy... I know that very well, what I'm saying is - it is understandable that we spend little when the requirements to move beyond our current position are so large. ahh fuck it, I'm out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdckelly Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Whilst I'm obviously annoyed that we never invest when we're clearly in a position to do so, I don't think that saying "if we spend this or that we'd be in such-and-such a position." We could spend a comparatively meagre amount to the likes of City and Co, and still be in with a shout of 4th. Replace the current manager with a decent one and add a couple more players - we'd have been in with a shout of 4th. I'm hesitant to offer credit but one thing I 'agree' with regarding our transfer model is that you don't need to spend ridiculous amounts to progress. A team is worth more than the sum of its parts, typething. Crossed wires there though cos, again, it's not like their stance on frugality is related to actual footballing philosophy. Aye. On the surface our transfer policy is sound imo, we've made some really, really good buys and, tbf, I don't think we've signed someone yet that could be considered a disaster? The worst arguably Cisse who pushed us into Europe. I genuinely believe that, whilst still operating the way we do now, we'd be challenging the Champions League consistently if we'd just go out and fill out the gaping holes in the squad with quality, both for the first team and in reserve. Spend a good £30m or so on the players (or less if we can) we need and then patch up with frugality in the future, in the same fashion we are now, only we'll be maintaining a full squad as opposed to patching up 3/4 of one. the amount spent on players isn't all that important to me personally so long as we actually address the needs of the squad which has never been the priority Not sure if you're agreeing or not there, but aye, that's pretty much what I'm saying. It doesn't matter how much money we spend, we just need to bring quality players in to fill the obvious gaps in the squad. We've played half of a season and Shola Ameobi has made 16 appearances. Starting 9. We're playing with a centre forward and a centre mid on our wings, and have Mike Williamson in the centre of defence, and he's been partnered with Steven Taylor for the last few games. That squad can be improved really, really easily, and it would surely be a good investment if it was done as quickly as possible. overall I'd agree my point is the amount isn't in the slightest bit relevant to me I wouldn't even care much if we were breaking even on transfers all so long as the squad was being improved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRD Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 http://i.imgur.com/HKuAYbl.jpg As it currently stands. Only club with no permanent signing of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You agree, almost like its not a chance in hell to compete with the top 6 in PL. Our owner is a c***, so is our director of football, and our manager is average at best. But its not impossible to compete if we went for it and ran the club like a proper football club. I just don't know what we could realistically do (with Mike Ashley as owner) to break the domination of those clubs ToonPack mentioned. I mean, we are competing with the top 6 now, what I don't know is how it's possible to compete with the top 3 or 4 without spending way beyond our means on a regular basis. Ian, for the last 3 seasons we have been fairly close to CL qualification twice (one very close), with a squad assembled on a shoestring and managed by a dead average manager. Graham Carr is doing a fantastic job of spotting talent early, it's the doing the deals part that's sometimes letting us down (Thauvin, Aubameyang, just to name two examples). Now, if Ashley were to trust Carr's judgement a little bit more and was willing to spend that little bit of extra money it sometimes takes (our money btw, not his), not only could that make the difference between being close and actually challenging up there, but it would also make sense financially for him to do so. The same thing goes for (not) replacing the manager. Again, it comes down to trying to be the best we possibly can vs being happy with mediocrity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR15 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Five o Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You agree, almost like its not a chance in hell to compete with the top 6 in PL. Our owner is a c***, so is our director of football, and our manager is average at best. But its not impossible to compete if we went for it and ran the club like a proper football club. I just don't know what we could realistically do (with Mike Ashley as owner) to break the domination of those clubs ToonPack mentioned. I mean, we are competing with the top 6 now, what I don't know is how it's possible to compete with the top 3 or 4 without spending way beyond our means on a regular basis. Ian, for the last 3 seasons we have been fairly close to CL qualification twice (one very close), with a squad assembled on a shoestring and managed by a dead average manager. Graham Carr is doing a fantastic job of spotting talent early, it's the doing the deals part that's sometimes letting us down (Thauvin, Aubameyang, just to name two examples). Now, if Ashley were to trust Carr's judgement a little bit more and was willing to spend that little bit of extra money it sometimes takes (our money btw, not his), not only could that make the difference between being close and actually challenging up there, but it would also make sense financially for him to do so. The same thing goes for (not) replacing the manager. Again, it comes down to trying to be the best we possibly can vs being happy with mediocrity. Amen bro! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmymag Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I've finally seen the light! Ian W doesn't really exist, he's not a real person. Don't you see, he's a permanent devils advocate sneekily designed to wind people up, to ensure that Newcastle Online continues to be the most used Newcastle fan's forum on the internet. Very clever. I wish I had realised sooner, it would have saved me two smashed laptops, untold cups and glasses and a stomach ulcer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
afar Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You agree, almost like its not a chance in hell to compete with the top 6 in PL. Our owner is a c***, so is our director of football, and our manager is average at best. But its not impossible to compete if we went for it and ran the club like a proper football club. I just don't know what we could realistically do (with Mike Ashley as owner) to break the domination of those clubs ToonPack mentioned. I mean, we are competing with the top 6 now, what I don't know is how it's possible to compete with the top 3 or 4 without spending way beyond our means on a regular basis. Ian, for the last 3 seasons we have been fairly close to CL qualification twice (one very close), with a squad assembled on a shoestring and managed by a dead average manager. Graham Carr is doing a fantastic job of spotting talent early, it's the doing the deals part that's sometimes letting us down (Thauvin, Aubameyang, just to name two examples). Now, if Ashley were to trust Carr's judgement a little bit more and was willing to spend that little bit of extra money it sometimes takes (our money btw, not his), not only could that make the difference between being close and actually challenging up there, but it would also make sense financially for him to do so. The same thing goes for (not) replacing the manager. Again, it comes down to trying to be the best we possibly can vs being happy with mediocrity. Great post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrettNUFC Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I've finally seen the light! Ian W doesn't really exist, he's not a real person. Don't you see, he's a permanent devils advocate sneekily designed to wind people up, to ensure that Newcastle Online continues to be the most used Newcastle fan's forum on the internet. Very clever. I wish I had realised sooner, it would have saved me two smashed laptops, untold cups and glasses and a stomach ulcer. Coming from the one who wants Newcastle to lose tomorrow, righto Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Ian, for the last 3 seasons we have been fairly close to CL qualification twice (one very close), with a squad assembled on a shoestring and managed by a dead average manager. Graham Carr is doing a fantastic job of spotting talent early, it's the doing the deals part that's sometimes letting us down (Thauvin, Aubameyang, just to name two examples). Now, if Ashley were to trust Carr's judgement a little bit more and was willing to spend that little bit of extra money it sometimes takes (our money btw, not his), not only could that make the difference between being close and actually challenging up there, but it would also make sense financially for him to do so. The same thing goes for (not) replacing the manager. Again, it comes down to trying to be the best we possibly can vs being happy with mediocrity. Good post, I admit we're too tight with transfer fees a lot of the time, I've never said otherwise. I just not convinced that Ashley believes signing a couple more players like the ones you mention would translate into CL qualification, and I can understand that based on how football is now structured. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 You agree, almost like its not a chance in hell to compete with the top 6 in PL. Our owner is a c***, so is our director of football, and our manager is average at best. But its not impossible to compete if we went for it and ran the club like a proper football club. I just don't know what we could realistically do (with Mike Ashley as owner) to break the domination of those clubs ToonPack mentioned. I mean, we are competing with the top 6 now, what I don't know is how it's possible to compete with the top 3 or 4 without spending way beyond our means on a regular basis. Spending way beyond our means!!!! Fucking hell man - we haven't spent a penny in two full transfer windows man. We aren't asking for huge amounts to be spent. Christ almighty. Earth to Andy... I know that very well, what I'm saying is - it is understandable that we spend little when the requirements to move beyond our current position are so large. So you think it's better to hoard the money that the club brings in instead? Pure wummery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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