Jonjo Shelvey (now playing for Burnley)

[madras]

Just now, Ikon said:

He has improved greatly but he’s still immobile and a liability. Only a few games ago he should have seen red for a stupid scissor tackle. 

Totally agree about the red mist and I posted similar earlier, don't get the immobile bit though, goes against what I've actually watched. He even looks to have more pace making it appear that it wasn't lack of pace but lack of defensive thought that let opposition players run off him.

[Hanshithispantz]

I get it but even just switching play effectively can be huge if you're set up right, not everything in football has to be some outrageous, defence splitting wonder ball.

 

Pressing, one of the most effective tools in modern football, requiring virtually no actual skill with the ball, is another example of this. It's the same with Henderson under Klopp who has been vital for years despite everyone calling him shite (Henderson is obviously better than Shelvey I know).

 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Hanshithispantz

[Ikon]

1 minute ago, madras said:

Totally agree about the red mist and I posted similar earlier, don't get the immobile bit though, goes against what I've actually watched. He even looks to have more pace making it appear that it wasn't lack of pace but lack of defensive thought that let opposition players run off him.

Fair enough mate. Personally I still think and see him chasing shadows too often. But imo it isn’t quite as obvious anymore since we are better in our tactical side of the game and our positioning. 

[madras]

Just now, Ikon said:

Fair enough mate. Personally I still think and see him chasing shadows too often. But imo it isn’t quite as obvious anymore since we are better in our tactical side of the game and our positioning. 

Yip, the big thing is, and this goes for a few of them, is this form permanent or temporary ?

[Ikon]

1 minute ago, madras said:

Yip, the big thing is, and this goes for a few of them, is this form permanent or temporary ?

aye difficult question. I think they genuinely are capable of this, but I doubt it’s sustainable in the long run. At least for some of them but not for everyone. Providing that we stay up we really need to get the balance right. Keep the spirit and morals up by not signing too many new players. Being ruthless but not in a too ruthless way if that makes any sense. We obviously will and need to strengthen but it’s equally important to keep the morals up. I say quality over quantity signings wise. Most importantly that the players we get in are proper good characters with the right mentality and winners attitude. How many teams through the years have been shite despite being good on paper? Only need to look at Everton now for example. Looked good and motivated against City but shite many other times. This is why I think a team need the likes of Targett for example. 
 

I really went off topic here talking about many things that has nothing to do with this. Having said the above I still think some of our players can be even better with time and better players around them. Growing in belief and quality. Good feeling about Howe at the moment.

[Unbelievable]

On 27/02/2022 at 11:46, madras said:

Totally agree about the red mist and I posted similar earlier, don't get the immobile bit though, goes against what I've actually watched. He even looks to have more pace making it appear that it wasn't lack of pace but lack of defensive thought that let opposition players run off him.

Fitness, just like most other players were shockingly out of shape under Bruce.

[arnonel]

Not quite Joelinton redemption, but Jonjo deserves some credit.

 

I hated him, but dislike him a lot less now.

 

Keep learning and progressing and he might earn respect of the crowds

 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by arnonel

[Dandy Man]

Totally despised him a few months ago and still don't trust him by any means but starting to look like this might not be a false dawn. He's been putting in the hard work fairly consistently, is making less glaring errors and just looks a lot sharper in general. Think it's a massive credit to Howe that he's been able to bring about such a transformation given Shelvey's obvious physical and mental shortcomings in the past.

[Likelylad]

Tbf, i remember Howe specifically mentioned Shelvey early on. I thought he was just doing some basic man management to try and keep him engaged. 

However, he's clearly getting a decent enough tune of him to both their credits.

[Ikon]

He is getting a decent tune out of him and massive credit to Howe. Will be interesting to see what he can do with a proper player in there replacing Shelvey further ahead. 

[Thiago]

Howe has realised what many knew of Jonjo and players of his ilk - surround him with legs and he'll be grand. It's not terribly dissimilar at the top level to Pirlo at Juventus. 

[Ikon]

Grand?? Pirlo…  
 

in the same sentence as Shelvey..

[maze]

[Hanshithispantz]

Pirlo will be getting called The Maned Shelvey in a few years time.

[Thiago]

Easy lads. 

 

I was not saying Shelvey is on the level of Pirlo - hence why I said 'at the top level'.

 

The point is, if you're looking at their respective games they are both players that excel technically but don't offer much physically. The way Juventus offset that weakness was by having Arturo Vidal charging round with four lungs breaking it up and and Paul Pogba playing halfway between an 8 and a 10 - operating in the final third but able to drop deep and make it a more flat three when needed. 

 

That's exactly what Howe has done with Joelinton, Willock, and Shelvey. Now when I say 'he'll be grand' I mean he'll be sufficient for a team aiming to finish between 16th and 12th. The reason it's not sustainable long term is because Shelvey is not the level of Pirlo and the investment isn't worth the payoff.

 

 

[greydos]

On 27/02/2022 at 10:51, madras said:

Yip, the big thing is, and this goes for a few of them, is this form permanent or temporary ?

This question is really: “Can Howe and the management team permanently get a tune out of Shelvey to match where we want to finish each season?” All the evidence at present points to back Howe’s judgment over our assessments of players. I’m comfortable if Howe wants Shelvey to stay the next 2 years

[Lotus]

After Bruno came on I thought Shelley made a couple of positional errors. Twice I think he was resting a bit, nothing wrong with that per se, but you have to rest in position and he wasn’t. He was not central where he has to rest as the deep CM. He was on the left and given the ball was with Brentford on the right I thought that was the 1st time I’ve noticed him make a definite tactical error since Bruno showed up. He was slow to react and just kind of ambled more to the middle. Up to now I think he’s been pretty good tbh (last 6 games) but those couple of little lapses made me wonder if that’s the crack that Bruno squeezes through to start a game. 

[Consortium of one]

He's played well, I'll give him that, but with Bruno in the squad its time to move on.

[Dr Jinx]

Keep playing him, when he does make a stupid tackle and gets sent off, that opens the door for Bruno to take his place.

It's quite obvious you cannot drop either Joelinton or Willock from the starting 11

[TRon]

On 27/02/2022 at 10:46, madras said:

Totally agree about the red mist and I posted similar earlier, don't get the immobile bit though, goes against what I've actually watched. He even looks to have more pace making it appear that it wasn't lack of pace but lack of defensive thought that let opposition players run off him.

 

He's more mobile than he was, but he's never going to be top class level just because he is limited there. I don't know what the stats will say, but I bet he doesn't win the ball from the opposition much compared to Joelinton or Willock, simply because they can close down players quicker. Shelvey is more a defensive tackler where he drops deep and blocks rather than push forward and dispossess the opposition.

 

That said, it's not the worst thing as he plays deeper anyway, but you have to think Bruno will be better because he will press more aggressively.

[Kid Icarus]

Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to Shelvey but I don't get the sense that he'll relapse and do something stupid in the way it's regularly suggested on here.

 

To me it feels like Howe's got him consistently not doing the things he was criticised for - laziness, not tracking back, stamina, rash challenges. He's been putting the work in since Brentford in November. That's more than just a phase imo. He got a yellow for a foul against Everton, but I think it was definitely just a yellow only and no more rash than Schar's foul in the same game.

 

Maybe it's naïve, but I don't get the sense of it only being a matter of time like I did with Joey Barton for example. 

[Thiago]

I'm inclined to agree. It's not something we'll ever know, but I do wonder how much of his apathy to the situation was rooted in knowing he could always leave.

 

West Ham felt like an obvious destination, while I'm sure someone would take a chance, even if it meant a drop in money. If estimates are right he's made close to £20m on wages while he's been here. It's not like he needed to think about money, if anything he could chase his joy a bit when leaving. I think the quotes that came out recently were telling. I think he actually sees a positive future for himself. He knows if we stay up he'll be replaced fairly quickly, but I think he's happy to hang around and be part of the 'project'. 

[Khalidao]

Time for Bruno G to take his place.

[Outremont]

Useless as sin today 

[elbee909]

Wet noodle.