Ronaldo Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Wondering just how important to everyone this "7th best home record in the league" is? Personally I'm not bothered about it as long as we go up. It's only important because there's a chance we might not. As others have said we needed a couple of quality attacking players to help us break teams down and establish a foothold in the game at home. We inexcusably didn't get them and as a consequence promotion will go down to the last couple of fixtures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanji Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Hope we swiftly hop on a good run of form of straigt wins and Brighton and Huddersfield trip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I'm of the thinking that hes the best thing to happen to us since Sir Bobby but can also see that he is not without his flaws (as no manager in world football would be) I would be interested though to hear what peoples views and opinions would be if we went on a bad run and missed out on automatic promotion, would the Rafa can do no wrong crowd still be as accommodating? It isn't about Rafa can do no wrong, for me I have doubts about whether these players are equipped to the job if they were set up differently. To go more attacking would need more pace and energy in midfield, ruthless strikers and a defence which can pass the ball out and cope with playing a high line. A defensive midfielder who can cover the ground quickly to close down the spaces would also be essential. Is Colback that man? I'm opposite, I don't think 4-2-3-1 gets the best from the squad. You also give a great description of what yoiu think we need to be more attacking, you've basically described the perfect team, one that pretty much doesn't exist outside of Man City and Chelsea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I'm of the thinking that hes the best thing to happen to us since Sir Bobby but can also see that he is not without his flaws (as no manager in world football would be) I would be interested though to hear what peoples views and opinions would be if we went on a bad run and missed out on automatic promotion, would the Rafa can do no wrong crowd still be as accommodating? It isn't about Rafa can do no wrong, for me I have doubts about whether these players are equipped to the job if they were set up differently. To go more attacking would need more pace and energy in midfield, ruthless strikers and a defence which can pass the ball out and cope with playing a high line. A defensive midfielder who can cover the ground quickly to close down the spaces would also be essential. Is Colback that man? I'm opposite, I don't think 4-2-3-1 gets the best from the squad. You also give a great description of what yoiu think we need to be more attacking, you've basically described the perfect team, one that pretty much doesn't exist outside of Man City and Chelsea. Obviously you scale that down for the championship. When I say ruthless strikers for example, a fit Gayle would be that in this division. Mitrovic wouldn't. Hayden instead of Colback gives you the midfield mobility and athleticism which would allow you to push forward with more confidence. If you are suggesting we should be going 4-4-2 then I'd agree, just not with Colback in the side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 The best sides have always had adaptable players in m/f....players who can both tackle and create. Think of Bremner and Giles at Leeds(a long time ago now I know, but these 2 plus Madeley, who could play in several positions, were the bedrock of a very tough side to beat..they also weighed in with a number of goals. You can look at the likes of Petit at Arsenal more recently and there are plenty of other examples...Rob Lee could also tackle, had a fair turn of pace and scored goals. Hardly any of our m/f are mobile enough or creative enough to allow us to storm forward a la KK in home games and many of our side are NOT comfortable on the ball. This is the main reason why we struggle at SJP and it won't change until we get better players in the middle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Wondering just how important to everyone this "7th best home record in the league" is? Personally I'm not bothered about it as long as we go up. It's only important because there's a chance we won't. Exactly. Is that so hard to understand? It's also harder for fans to accept a poor home record. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 It's not as simple as 'better CM's on the ball'. Look who we had last time in CM. Make your eyes bleed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Home record is vital for team just promoted. That's the worry for me as i think momentum and form is a huge factor for how teams perform once promoted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpy Gunt Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Rafa out! is all I'm saying on the matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 It's not as simple as 'better CM's on the ball'. Look who we had last time in CM. Make your eyes bleed. Didn't we have Guthrie and Nolan in CM for the run in last time round? Both of which were much better than Colback and certainly didn't make your eyes bleed Granted Smith and Butt were awful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I just have memories of Alan Smith tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 It's not as simple as 'better CM's on the ball'. Look who we had last time in CM. Make your eyes bleed. Didn't we have Guthrie and Nolan in CM for the run in last time round? Both of which were much better than Colback and certainly didn't make your eyes bleed Granted Smith and Butt were awful. Guthrie got a lot of stick when we were in the premier, but during the championship season most people were agreed he had a great campaign. Nolan had no legs but he was a great finisher. So we often got 'outplayed' in midfield, but because the championship sides couldn't convert that to goals and we could, we still ended up winning a lot of games that we didn't dominate. Similar to the first half of this season in a lot of ways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 You couldn't find a decent pair of legs between the 4 of them too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistle17 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 As good as he is, when we have players like Colback, Dummet, Gouffran making up the starting team it is inevitable that our results will be inconsistent- especially at home when we're supposed to be breaking teams down. It's a fucking joke that in a season as huge as this we only have Shelvey/Hayden/Colback as the distinguished players who can play as a deep midfield pairing (I'm sure Rafa made it clear that he is 4-2-3-1 and nothing else, so investment in that regard was crucial, but it obviously didn't happen...). With Hayden injured, our lack of investment in January is now glaringly obvious as we're left to stomach Colback in midfield. We could play Diame there, but the fact is he is not good enough nor does he have the intelligence to play a deeper, more conservative role. He's best away from home to help start counters. Dummet is a horrific football player, and his physical presence from set pieces can be the only thing keeping him in the side. However, Rafa needs to find a way to get Haidara fit or mentally capable to play there. Plus, Dummet is a left footer so gives a bit of balance when we want to build up. In saying that, Rafa is not immune to criticism; he is overly conservative against very poor teams (perhaps he realises our defensive frailties at times), whilst strategically is killing us at home most of the time. Some of the teams that come to sit in against us are brutal, but we're far to reserved about attacking them and occupying their backline. I know he likes our Wingers to come inside, but we can still have 2 Strikers and do that, with two sitting CM's and Full Back's bombing on. Murphy has proven he's a consistent goal scorer, we need to play him. With the quality Shelvey has on the ball, there's not a lot of need to have 3 in midfield against some of these teams, but Rafa has his ideas and in fairness we are top (if only just). Ultimately, if we want to play ball on the deck and attack teams, we need 11 players on the pitch who can do that- but we don't. Win at Birmingham and we'll be one game closer. As I said after Fulham, our next 3 fixtures are huge, we need 9/9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 You couldn't find a decent pair of legs between the 4 of them too. I think the championship has progressed quite a bit since then tbh. There are better coaches and the teams seem to be more organised. Athleticism is only one part of the equation, knowing how to utilise the players is a different kettle of fish these days. How is Ian Holloway doing these days? He pissed this league a few years ago, I wonder how he compares to the likes of Wagner and Staam today? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I've come to the conclusion his strength isn't league management. Too cautious. Over a 38 league season he's only over managed 80 points or more once. A minimum of 12 losses or draws. Certainly the Liverpool team didn't win the title due to too many home draws. But we will get promoted. If Ashley can show some ambition over the next few years we will become a top 8 side and with Rafa in charge - we should really grab some silverware. Can't see Ashley matching the ambition. I wonder who won him the two league titles in Spain with a club that wasn't one of the big 2? He didn't win it once which you could put down as a fluke but you don't usually fluke your way to two titles. I guess he could have treated the league season as a cup competition though. Won it with 70 something points twice. 1 of them Deportivo finished 2nd. Neither were flukes. But it just goes to show the best seasons in his career - his team still dropped a lot of points. He regularly got similar amount of points at Liverpool but that wasn't enough to win league titles. His best ever season in terms of points was at Liverpool which they lost against a very strong Man Utd side. Again you would say being too defensive at home cost them the league. Too many home draws. It's a pattern in his career. He's a fine manager but his teams have never dominated a league. Is there a manager who dominates a league ready to take the job? I'm not advocating that we can do better. I'm saying - rafa making harder work of this league than we might have imagined isn't an indication he's not still a top manager or we should be worried long-term. It's actually consistent in his career. It's not his style to steamroller any division. Another Championship manager could do a better job in this division imo. But medium/long term? He's the best man for sure. Another championship manager like Steve Bruce? Or Alex Neil? Norwich and Villa fans would happily swap places with you right now. At the season's start, I thought Norwich had a stronger side than you and were better suited to the Champo, fwiw. But really, who? Gary Monk? I think some of you forget how on your arse you were when you went down and how downright godawful, p*ss-stinking, laughing-stock s*** you've been for more than a decade. And that's not even considering the off the field fuckery. You could easily be where Villa are now, with 30,000 every week moaning their arse off, in absolute pieces. In fact I'll stick my neck out and say that if you hadn't got Rafa, and if he hadn't got you a couple of good players like Clark and Ritchie and others, you'd be absolutely Freddie f***ed right now. Having watched over 50 Championship games this season, 20 odd involving us and loads as a neutral on TV I think you're talking rubbish. Any team that can call on Gayle, Shelvey, Ritchie and Yedlin is going to be up at the tip end of this league even if most of the other players are pretty much run of the mill Championship standard. This is madness. Gayle, Ritchie and Yedlin wouldn't be anywhere near you without Rafa. He brought them to you!! We're the biggest club in the division by some distance and we had a a large transfer pot in the summer due to player sales. To suggest we couldn't have brought in a squad player from Crystal Palace, who hardly featured last season, a Bournemouth player and a player who spent the end of last season at Sunderland and had no future at his parent club is ridiculous. It's not we couldn't have attracted them without Rafa, it's that Rafa identified they were what we needed and signed them. Under the old model, we'd have just signed more Obertans and Rivieres. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 You couldn't find a decent pair of legs between the 4 of them too. Had lots of pace in the 4 positions out wide, mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 When has Holloway pissed the Championship? 2 promotions via play-offs iirc. Failed at plenty of Champo teams too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 When has Holloway p*ssed the Championship? 2 promotions via play-offs iirc. Failed at plenty of Champo teams too. He's only failed at 2 Championship clubs hasn't he, Leicester and Millwall? I wouldn't say that's 'plenty'. Especially as he was brought in initially at Millwall to guide them to safety, which he did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_NUFC Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Ian Holloway ffs. Delete your accounts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 He snuck into the playoffs in '10 with 70 points, and 72 in '13. Absolutely not pissing anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hhtoon Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I don't just support the football which admittedly has been a little painful to watch at times, I also support the club. Prior to his arrival we were a circus source of amusement with key figureheads of Ashley, Kinnear, Pardew, Mcclaren etc. These people are cunts, bellends or fools and brought the club down. Now if you say Newcastle United the key highlights to most would be Rafa who is a gent and respected and that we're top of our league. Well worth the trade off to me. When we're back in a league he knows like the back of his hand then sure well see improvements. Ah fuck, son just shit in the bath Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 When has Holloway pissed the Championship? 2 promotions via play-offs iirc. Failed at plenty of Champo teams too. So a bit of hyperbole on my part, he got promotion twice regardless. I think the championship's a bit tougher league this season than it was back in his heyday. We have decent competition for the promotion spots from Huddersfield and Brighton for a start, and if Fulham are a play off team and 6th in the table that sort of confirms it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Surely should be drafting his resignation letter after the Fulham result tonight. Unacceptable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 People saying it doesn't matter about our home record are missing the point that NEXT season - all being well - there is no way our away record will be anything like this season's unless we sign quality players in defence and m/f so we, like most sides, will NEED to make SJP a fortress against visiting teams so we can get sufficient points. PL sides are going to take us apart if we sit back and defend as a priority when we play away from home as they mostly have far more skill and movement(and better strikers) than Champ sides - it also follows that most PL managers are better than their Champ equivalents so they will have our style of play sussed out, just as 5 sides have managed to do at SJP this season. I am sure Rafa knows this but whether those who obviously now hold the purse strings and make decisions about who we sign also know, is open to question.... Whatever happens, we are going to have to have a lot more variations in our locker for next season - whoever is in the manager's office. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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