Rafael Benitez

[Happinesstan]

This 442 discussion is a bit tedious. To say the game has moved on from that is just ridiculous, it is still probably the most functional and flexible (dependant on personnel)  formation out there.

 

To use ourselves as an example:

 

Despite being one of the top scorers in the entire league, watching us play we could be improved with a stronger presence in the box at key moments. And the match stats often appear to back that up.

 

Since we clearly don't have a midfielder who is willing/able to provide that, why would you not consider putting an extra striker in.

 

Because it would weaken our midfield? Well. yes it would, but the last 9 mins versus Norwich demonstrated that it can be highly effective. Other than that we have barely witnessed it.

 

I'm not having a go at Rafa. He has us where we are, doing what he does and I have no complaints. I just think it is a bit pretentious of the writer to basically say 442 is unfashionable.

 

After all 4231 is just 442 with a bit more fluidity because of better players.

[Guest firetotheworks]

This 442 discussion is a bit tedious. To say the game has moved on from that is just ridiculous, it is still probably the most functional and flexible (dependant on personnel)  formation out there.

 

To use ourselves as an example:

 

Despite being one of the top scorers in the entire league, watching us play we could be improved with a stronger presence in the box at key moments. And the match stats often appear to back that up.

 

Since we clearly don't have a midfielder who is willing/able to provide that, why would you not consider putting an extra striker in.

 

Because it would weaken our midfield? Well. yes it would, but the last 9 mins versus Norwich demonstrated that it can be highly effective. Other than that we have barely witnessed it.

 

I'm not having a go at Rafa. He has us where we are, doing what he does and I have no complaints. I just think it is a bit pretentious of the writer to basically say 442 is unfashionable.

 

After all 4231 is just 442 with a bit more fluidity because of better players.

 

You can very easily spin that the other way, like. We're the top scorers (not one of) in the Championship, and one of the reasons for that could be because we play 4231.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

This is why Rafa needs to be trusted. Those arguments for 442 may have merit, but what about the disadvantages? Rafa likes Diame because he has the potential to win the ball high up the pitch and also basically provides an extra midfielder. Take that away and our paper-thin CM comes under more pressure. And which two forwards? Mitro and Gayle would just mean we could only score from crosses, which we struggle to deliver.

 

You can always find individual arguments for change but Rafa is about the overall unit. That unit is getting promoted comfortably, job done. Add better players and we'll be more fluent. 

[Hanshithispantz]

pretty much what I was trying to say just in better words. There's deffinitely things we can complain about, but you have to look at the picture as a whole.

[Happinesstan]

This 442 discussion is a bit tedious. To say the game has moved on from that is just ridiculous, it is still probably the most functional and flexible (dependant on personnel)  formation out there.

 

To use ourselves as an example:

 

Despite being one of the top scorers in the entire league, watching us play we could be improved with a stronger presence in the box at key moments. And the match stats often appear to back that up.

 

Since we clearly don't have a midfielder who is willing/able to provide that, why would you not consider putting an extra striker in.

 

Because it would weaken our midfield? Well. yes it would, but the last 9 mins versus Norwich demonstrated that it can be highly effective. Other than that we have barely witnessed it.

 

I'm not having a go at Rafa. He has us where we are, doing what he does and I have no complaints. I just think it is a bit pretentious of the writer to basically say 442 is unfashionable.

 

After all 4231 is just 442 with a bit more fluidity because of better players.

 

You can very easily spin that the other way, like. We're the top scorers (not one of) in the Championship, and one of the reasons for that could be because we play 4231.

 

Of course you can, but I wasn't questioning the notion that 4231 can be successful.

[Happinesstan]

This is why Rafa needs to be trusted. Those arguments for 442 may have merit, but what about the disadvantages? Rafa likes Diame because he has the potential to win the ball high up the pitch and also basically provides an extra midfielder. Take that away and our paper-thin CM comes under more pressure. And which two forwards? Mitro and Gayle would just mean we could only score from crosses, which we struggle to deliver.

 

You can always find individual arguments for change but Rafa is about the overall unit. That unit is getting promoted comfortably, job done. Add better players and we'll be more fluent.

 

I totally agree, but I'm not talking about Rafa, I'm talking about the idle notion that football has moved beyond 442.

 

 

 

 

[TRon]

The only reason I think we're better suited to 4-4-2 is because we don't have a number 10, so we're shoehorning players into a position that doesn't suit them.

 

I think all things considered a 433 would be more suitable than a 442 tbh.

 

This. Gayle and a striking partner aside, I don't think we're at all set up for 4-4-2. We don't have the legs in central midfield and our defence (central, in particular) needs lots of protection. We're also struggling in wide areas - giving our wide midfielders more work to do wouldn't really help. It'd work fine if we were exclusively a counter-attacking team, but we're not exactly blessed with pace either.

 

4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 are our best bets, IMO.

 

I do wonder whether this defence in particular isn't going to be much better no matter how much protection you give it. Most of the goals we've conceded have been down to defensive mistakes rather than being exposed by lack of cover. Look at the first goal on Saturday as an example. The goalscorer was up against four defenders but still got the header in.

 

Plus I just think that CBs like Mbemba are better suited to playing a high line. I know it would be more risky, but at home I just wonder how we would get on with Mitro and Murphy up front and we push up and get at Leeds for 90 mins.

[loki679]

Great piece from TF but I wouldn't say Rafa is 'on another level' to SBR.  Different styles I think but i'd put Robson up there with Rafa in the top tier.

 

I've also been itching to see us play with two up top at points this season simply because we don't really have anyone who can do a decent job in the #10 role.  We could easily keep the same formation (ish) and have Mitro or the Murph playing off Gayle.

[Bimpy474]

Great piece from TF but I wouldn't say Rafa is 'on another level' to SBR.  Different styles I think but i'd put Robson up there with Rafa in the top tier.

 

I've also been itching to see us play with two up top at points this season simply because we don't really have anyone who can do a decent job in the #10 role.  We could easily keep the same formation (ish) and have Mitro or the Murph playing off Gayle.

 

Rafa says quite rightly that he likes the 10 role as it helps control the midfield, and that is his tactics, controlling the game. But with the players we have that's not working but he's sticking to it. You point out we have no real 10, quite right and imo the main reason why we're playing poor football as we're not controlling games like Rafa wants us too. 

 

Rafa wouldn't be Rafa without the stubborn streak that's made him so successful. I love Rafa, love the way he is, the way he talks, the way he projects everything about us, football etc, but i can't stand the poor football right now. Switching to 4-4-1-1/4-4-2-ish, yep, it would make us better but that stubborn streak which is bringing poor football a lot of the time, especially since christmas is something we have to put up with right now because 4-2-3-1 is him 99.9% of the time.

 

That stubborn streak will pay dividends in the long run if and when we buy better players, ones more suited to 4-2-3-1. I think Rafa got some buys wrong, Diame for instance has been terrible in the 10 role that Rafa bought him for and that hasn't helped. He gets some stick for that, imo quite rightly but in the long run we'll see good football (despite my own hatred of two holding players in a 4-2-3-1).

 

[joeyt]

Are those wanting us to go 4-4-2 still wanting us to change to that now Gayle might be out for the season?

 

Which would mean Mitrovic and  Murphy starting for the rest of the season,  the former which hasn't looked very clinical up front all season and the latter who generally looks knackered after 70 minutes.  Unless people want Gouffran or Ayoze up front

[Sho Time]

Mitro and Ayoze up top did OK in the Prem for a few games, although both have looked especially poor in the 2nd half of the campaign.

 

With the way things are there's no chance Huddersfield are going to catch us, we may as well just do what we're doing and pick up a few more points, we might not win the league but at least we get promoted - and if we don't win the league Rafa could hopefully use it to his advantage to request more money as it emphasises what we're lacking and why we'll go straight back down if he doesn't get the backing he wants.*

 

*In an ideal world where Mike Ashley isn't our owner.

[TRon]

Are those wanting us to go 4-4-2 still wanting us to change to that now Gayle might be out for the season?

 

Which would mean Mitrovic and  Murphy starting for the rest of the season,  the former which hasn't looked very clinical up front all season and the latter who generally looks knackered after 70 minutes.  Unless people want Gouffran or Ayoze up front

 

My reasoning is purely down to the control factor which Rafa emphasises is so important. I don't feel we are in control when we sit back because I just don't trust the current back four not to just hand over a goal through a mistake or lapse of concentration. While Mitro and Murphy aren't perfect by any means, as a front pair they are probably better than most championship sides would have available. If we pushed up and got plenty of the ball into the penalty area we should be able to get the three wins we need even if we lose the odd game due to being more adventurous.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Sir Bobby starting out now would be one of the best up and coming coaches in the game as he was back in his early days. Sir Bobby at his peak now would be up there with the very very best today. Ancelotti, Klopp, Mourinho, Pep, Pardew et al. He was adaptable as his success all over Europe showed, his style of football was exciting and attacking, he liked youth and also improved players' games. But key is players wanted to play for him, loved him and that in football brings success.

 

Looking back at his time here, he did remarkably well with a team that individually wasn't the best and collectively wasn't the best either.

 

It was an odd and unbalanced outfit at times, an ageing Shearer, miscreants in Dyer, Bramble, Bellamy. A maverick in Robert, an ageing Speed and some extremely average players such as Dabizas, O'Brien etc. That and lots of younger players too. But in general it worked. We played good attacking football and were a very good team on our day capable of beating anyone.

 

Sir Bobby replaces KK and we win something, maybe even the title. We got Dalglish instead!

 

Rafa is pound for pound in terms of tactics, preparation, attention to detail, trophies won as a manager etc. arguably the best we've had, but give me a KK or a Sir Bobby any day over a Rafa whose football this season has bored the tits off me and made me switch over once or twice when live on telly and I love the man.

[Paully]

Sir Bobby starting out now would be one of the best up and coming coaches in the game as he was back in his early days. Sir Bobby at his peak now would be up there with the very very best today. Ancelotti, Klopp, Mourinho, Pep, Pardew et al. He was adaptable as his success all over Europe showed, his style of football was exciting and attacking, he liked youth and also improved players' games. But key is players wanted to play for him, loved him and that in football brings success.

 

Looking back at his time here, he did remarkably well with a team that individually wasn't the best and collectively wasn't the best either.

 

It was an odd and unbalanced outfit at times, an ageing Shearer, miscreants in Dyer, Bramble, Bellamy. A maverick in Robert, an ageing Speed and some extremely average players such as Dabizas, O'Brien etc. That and lots of younger players too. But in general it worked. We played good attacking football and were a very good team on our day capable of beating anyone.

 

Sir Bobby replaces KK and we win something, maybe even the title. We got Dalglish instead!

 

Rafa is pound for pound in terms of tactics, preparation, attention to detail, trophies won as a manager etc. arguably the best we've had, but give me a KK or a Sir Bobby any day over a Rafa whose football this season has bored the tits off me and made me switch over once or twice when live on telly and I love the man.

 

As much as I love SBR, the football for the majority of his first two years was horrendous and he took over a far better squad! It wasn’t until we signed Robert and Bellamy (it could easily have been Zenden and Jeffers as well!) that we motored! I think it’s harsh to judge any style of play in this league – Rafa had one target at the start of the season and he is well on the way to achieving it!

[DJ_NUFC]

Sir Bobby starting out now would be one of the best up and coming coaches in the game as he was back in his early days. Sir Bobby at his peak now would be up there with the very very best today. Ancelotti, Klopp, Mourinho, Pep, Pardew et al. He was adaptable as his success all over Europe showed, his style of football was exciting and attacking, he liked youth and also improved players' games. But key is players wanted to play for him, loved him and that in football brings success.

 

Looking back at his time here, he did remarkably well with a team that individually wasn't the best and collectively wasn't the best either.

 

It was an odd and unbalanced outfit at times, an ageing Shearer, miscreants in Dyer, Bramble, Bellamy. A maverick in Robert, an ageing Speed and some extremely average players such as Dabizas, O'Brien etc. That and lots of younger players too. But in general it worked. We played good attacking football and were a very good team on our day capable of beating anyone.

 

Sir Bobby replaces KK and we win something, maybe even the title. We got Dalglish instead!

 

Rafa is pound for pound in terms of tactics, preparation, attention to detail, trophies won as a manager etc. arguably the best we've had, but give me a KK or a Sir Bobby any day over a Rafa whose football this season has bored the tits off me and made me switch over once or twice when live on telly and I love the man.

 

As much as I love SBR, the football for the majority of his first two years was horrendous and he took over a far better squad! It wasn’t until we signed Robert and Bellamy (it could easily have been Zenden and Jeffers as well!) that we motored! I think it’s harsh to judge any style of play in this league – Rafa had one target at the start of the season and he is well on the way to achieving it!

 

You mean the squad that went down 1-2 at home on a rainy night vs Sunderland, and were doomed for relegation? And in the first home game after SBR took over won 8-0? SBR was a fucking genius to turn us around, man. I also enjoyed watching the football at the time, all the pieces very slowly coming together, both on and off the pitch.

[Guest neesy111]

Sir Bobby starting out now would be one of the best up and coming coaches in the game as he was back in his early days. Sir Bobby at his peak now would be up there with the very very best today. Ancelotti, Klopp, Mourinho, Pep, Pardew et al. He was adaptable as his success all over Europe showed, his style of football was exciting and attacking, he liked youth and also improved players' games. But key is players wanted to play for him, loved him and that in football brings success.

 

Looking back at his time here, he did remarkably well with a team that individually wasn't the best and collectively wasn't the best either.

 

It was an odd and unbalanced outfit at times, an ageing Shearer, miscreants in Dyer, Bramble, Bellamy. A maverick in Robert, an ageing Speed and some extremely average players such as Dabizas, O'Brien etc. That and lots of younger players too. But in general it worked. We played good attacking football and were a very good team on our day capable of beating anyone.

 

Sir Bobby replaces KK and we win something, maybe even the title. We got Dalglish instead!

 

Rafa is pound for pound in terms of tactics, preparation, attention to detail, trophies won as a manager etc. arguably the best we've had, but give me a KK or a Sir Bobby any day over a Rafa whose football this season has bored the tits off me and made me switch over once or twice when live on telly and I love the man.

 

As much as I love SBR, the football for the majority of his first two years was horrendous and he took over a far better squad! It wasn’t until we signed Robert and Bellamy (it could easily have been Zenden and Jeffers as well!) that we motored! I think it’s harsh to judge any style of play in this league – Rafa had one target at the start of the season and he is well on the way to achieving it!

 

The season he took over, we had the 7th best record in the league after he took over and had notable wins over Arsenal and Man Utd and generally played well.

 

His 1st full season we were poor, he stupidly listened to Mick Wadsworth and hence we had many south Americans coming over.

[TRon]

Sir Bobby starting out now would be one of the best up and coming coaches in the game as he was back in his early days. Sir Bobby at his peak now would be up there with the very very best today. Ancelotti, Klopp, Mourinho, Pep, Pardew et al. He was adaptable as his success all over Europe showed, his style of football was exciting and attacking, he liked youth and also improved players' games. But key is players wanted to play for him, loved him and that in football brings success.

 

Looking back at his time here, he did remarkably well with a team that individually wasn't the best and collectively wasn't the best either.

 

It was an odd and unbalanced outfit at times, an ageing Shearer, miscreants in Dyer, Bramble, Bellamy. A maverick in Robert, an ageing Speed and some extremely average players such as Dabizas, O'Brien etc. That and lots of younger players too. But in general it worked. We played good attacking football and were a very good team on our day capable of beating anyone.

 

Sir Bobby replaces KK and we win something, maybe even the title. We got Dalglish instead!

 

Rafa is pound for pound in terms of tactics, preparation, attention to detail, trophies won as a manager etc. arguably the best we've had, but give me a KK or a Sir Bobby any day over a Rafa whose football this season has bored the tits off me and made me switch over once or twice when live on telly and I love the man.

 

As much as I love SBR, the football for the majority of his first two years was horrendous and he took over a far better squad! It wasn’t until we signed Robert and Bellamy (it could easily have been Zenden and Jeffers as well!) that we motored! I think it’s harsh to judge any style of play in this league – Rafa had one target at the start of the season and he is well on the way to achieving it!

 

You mean the squad that went down 1-2 at home on a rainy night vs Sunderland, and were doomed for relegation? And in the first home game after SBR took over won 8-0? SBR was a fucking genius to turn us around, man. I also enjoyed watching the football at the time, all the pieces very slowly coming together, both on and off the pitch.

 

I thought SBR was brilliant at getting the best out of what he had, also very flexible. I did a thread on here years ago when he was here how when he first arrived he used Shearer and Ferguson's strength in the air to play direct, and we did very well up to a point. But in the following seasons he introduced a lot of pace and energy into the midfield and we switched to a fast passing style which was lethal on the counter. Sir Bobby developed a reputation for being an old dimwit in his last years, but he was sharp as a tack on football knowledge.

[Paully]

 

You mean the squad that went down 1-2 at home on a rainy night vs Sunderland, and were doomed for relegation? And in the first home game after SBR took over won 8-0? SBR was a f***ing genius to turn us around, man. I also enjoyed watching the football at the time, all the pieces very slowly coming together, both on and off the pitch.

 

The only way we were doomed for relegation that season was if Shepherd had of given Gullit (who had alienated several influential characters to say the least!) the full season! I love SBR so I’m certainly not trying to belittle what he did for us but we had Shearer, Ferguson, Speed, Lee, Dyer to name several in that squad!

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Sir Bobby starting out now would be one of the best up and coming coaches in the game as he was back in his early days. Sir Bobby at his peak now would be up there with the very very best today. Ancelotti, Klopp, Mourinho, Pep, Pardew et al. He was adaptable as his success all over Europe showed, his style of football was exciting and attacking, he liked youth and also improved players' games. But key is players wanted to play for him, loved him and that in football brings success.

 

Looking back at his time here, he did remarkably well with a team that individually wasn't the best and collectively wasn't the best either.

 

It was an odd and unbalanced outfit at times, an ageing Shearer, miscreants in Dyer, Bramble, Bellamy. A maverick in Robert, an ageing Speed and some extremely average players such as Dabizas, O'Brien etc. That and lots of younger players too. But in general it worked. We played good attacking football and were a very good team on our day capable of beating anyone.

 

Sir Bobby replaces KK and we win something, maybe even the title. We got Dalglish instead!

 

Rafa is pound for pound in terms of tactics, preparation, attention to detail, trophies won as a manager etc. arguably the best we've had, but give me a KK or a Sir Bobby any day over a Rafa whose football this season has bored the tits off me and made me switch over once or twice when live on telly and I love the man.

 

As much as I love SBR, the football for the majority of his first two years was horrendous and he took over a far better squad! It wasn’t until we signed Robert and Bellamy (it could easily have been Zenden and Jeffers as well!) that we motored! I think it’s harsh to judge any style of play in this league – Rafa had one target at the start of the season and he is well on the way to achieving it!

 

I thought following his appointment we immediately started to play well and looked a different team and had a decent enough end to the season. The following season was a major let down after maybe expecting a bit more (certainly from myself, I was expecting a much better season), but you could see some promising signs ahead and a window into what was to come. After that it was all great with his final full season going slightly bad. But we had some injuries and tugh fixtures and we still finished 5th In general Sir Bobby was great for us and what he achieved, looking back, was remarkable.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I thought SBR was brilliant at getting the best out of what he had, also very flexible. 

 

Couldn't agree more. He extracted the most out of almost every player. Shearer was transformed. Speed become a different kind of player. Nobby and Robert were brilliant and Dyer, Bellamy, Jenas and Bramble all our young English hopefuls showed immense promise at various stages of their time here. I think had he been backed more that season we finished 5th might have been another top 4 finish. The following season was a joke. Our signings, the sale of Speed, the stupid tour and then Souness arriving. We've never been the same since!

[The College Dropout]

(all IIRC) bar Dyer the side he inherited was very one paced.

 

He did put a lot of eggs in South American and Carl Court shaped baskets in his first full season. Court looked a real prospect in his first season but the injuries ended him early.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

It was an ageing squad that was very one paced as you said. Cort was a real prospect btw, but injuries and a poor attitude robbed him of a promising career.

[newsted]

I thought SBR was brilliant at getting the best out of what he had, also very flexible. 

 

Couldn't agree more. He extracted the most out of almost every player. Shearer was transformed. Speed become a different kind of player. Nobby and Robert were brilliant and Dyer, Bellamy, Jenas and Bramble all our young English hopefuls showed immense promise at various stages of their time here. I think had he been backed more that season we finished 5th might have been another top 4 finish. The following season was a joke. Our signings, the sale of Speed, the stupid tour and then Souness arriving. We've never been the same since!

?

[Guest Howaythetoon]

British then...

[newsted]