Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I’m of the opinion that some of Rafa’s tactics and methods have not helped us at all at home and that could be our downfall RE relegation. I also dislike our football, it’s poor in the main and I find some of his subs baffling. I for one would like us to just go for it a bit more at home. Swansea at home for example, had we played the same way we did in the first half we would have won comfortably instead of drawing. I’m all for how we play away from home by the way. We cannot keep using the players as not being good enough as an excuse or our lack of spending, they are all mitigating factors, but I’m sure even Rafa himself more than anyone will not be happy with our total points yield as things stand and we could be doing better. Silly mistakes and missed chances haven’t helped but when we are on top and get a goal like away to Palace we seem to revert into a shell of fear and try and see out the game defensively and it costs us a lot. Rafa the man though, he’s untouchable and easily the best thing about our club and he is far too good for us. Sadly what Ashley did by not backing him in the summer basically clipped our wings following the jubilation or winning the Championship. He effectively killed odour season to the point where it would be all about staying up. Sadly I don’t think we will.

 

How would we have won if we had kept missing chances like the first half?

 

Such a simplistic thing to say if we'd played the same way in the second half etc......unless you're Man City it's not quite as simple as that. Swansea changed their players and formation after getting totally outplayed in the first half, we were unable to change it around mainly due to a lack of quality on the bench.....as it happens, they are not a bad side with some good players, as they've since proven.

 

At the end of the day, our defence is solid enough and the stats suggest we create enough chances to win games, but simply don't have the quality to convert them into goals.......a decent striker and we would have been nowhere near a relegation spot. That's 100% down to Ashley.

 

We totally surrendered the second half and played the complete opposite of how we did in the first half. Same against Palace. It makes it much easier for the opposition to get back into it.

 

What worries me is this:

 

We often start well and cause problems and get a goal and then just retreat into a shell. First half against Palace we play good attacking football causing them problems and generally being in control and then second half it’s like watching Pardew’s NUFC with players unable to string 3 simple passes together, lots of hoofing (to Gayle?!) and general negativity.

 

This is a common theme and can only come from the mentality of the players which is Rafa’s work. Obviously he doesn’t want us to misplace passes and surrender possession, but when we take the lead we drop back and try and see out the game almost in fera of if we keep going we may concede. We do concede anyway as such a way of playing just invites pressure (Palace away). This is why we draw so many games. Rafa sees a draw as a good result, a win as a bonus. It’s all about not losing.

 

At home I find this mentality really depressing and counter productive.

 

Away from home, not so much because I’d take the draw away as a good result and a win a bonus method all day long. At home though? Swansea, Brighton, Bournemouth, Everton, Burnley, Watford and Leicester have all either picked up 3 points or 1 point. Win 2-3 of them and we stay up.

 

What also worries me is our fitness levels after 60 minutes and the baffling dropping of players or reshuffling of players. If fit Murphy and a Merino have to play for example as they are arguably our two best players in an attacking sense or most important in terms of outlet/keeping possession.

 

Again I feel Rafa’s tactics and his mentality at home has cost us massively to the point where our poor home record is probably what will send us down.

 

I’m sick of the we are a championship side excuse or that we haven’t spent much money. I witnessed that second half against Swansea and it was pathetic, the complete opposite to the first half. Who is to blame for that? The players? Maybe so if it was a one off but it’s not...

 

Rafa for me is of the mindset that if we have the same points total as games played we will stay up, 38, which is why he is happy to try and see a game out at 1-0 up at home. The only thing is, we aren’t good enough to keep the ball out/have too many mistakes in us. What we do quite well given how crap we are, however, is create chances and despite our lack of firepower I believe we have enough to go and push on from a 1-0 lead to win more. West Ham at home for example.

[Paully]

Yes, I do. That squad was s*** though.

 

It's a far nicer and far less smellier turd than this one though!

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Looking at that squad, Cisse would be the one I’d have as despite his decline, he’s capable of finishing and would be our top goalscorer today if he was still with us.

[triggs]

Yep, better. SMc had 24 points by 7th Feb 2016, from 25 games.  The same ‘not good enough’ 6 wins we’ve currently got today, from 26 games.

He had 24 points and remained on 24 points until his sacking on March 11th. With a much better squad.

Well that’s why he was sacked, obviously. Not before time, the writing was on the wall relegation wise. I’m interested in this much better squad. I’d only slot two if the pre January window squad into our current starting 11. How many would you play?

Thinking Sissoko wouldn't get into our side is completely mental

Who would you drop for him, given how he played that season? Scored once I think? Looked like he was going through the motions most of the time. I’d rather play Ritchie, Murphy, Atsu, admittedly I am not a Sissoko fan, but I would rather have Aarons playing (then or now).

He's better than all of them or he could play behind the striker. Football isn't all about goals and assists, although Sissoko did actually create plenty of chances. One of the reasons we can't defend leads is because we have nobody who can bring us up the pitch so we end up under the cosh for ages at a time and that's exactly what Sissoko used to do. Winning free kicks, corners, throws that would relieve pressure and get us up the pitch. In contrast what we do now is hoof it somewhere vaguely in the direction of Joselu or Gayle and it just keeps coming straight back at us

[Optimistic Nut]

Yep, better. SMc had 24 points by 7th Feb 2016, from 25 games.  The same ‘not good enough’ 6 wins we’ve currently got today, from 26 games.

He had 24 points and remained on 24 points until his sacking on March 11th. With a much better squad.

Well that’s why he was sacked, obviously. Not before time, the writing was on the wall relegation wise. I’m interested in this much better squad. I’d only slot two if the pre January window squad into our current starting 11. How many would you play?

Thinking Sissoko wouldn't get into our side is completely mental

 

Sissoko would be one of our best 3 players by some distance.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I fucking hate Sissoko nd don’t rate him at all, but he would be quite effective the way we play now. He can bring a ball forward and take us up the pitch and for all his faults he could put a shift in as well. Just expect him to run the ball out of play, fall over his own feet, misplace a shot or generally look a scared cat in the final 3rd.

[James]

To be honest I’m not sure that team pisses over our current team at all. Of the seven central players aka the spine, 5 of them are clearly in the running for some of the worst players to play (regularly) for us in the last 25 years

 

Then three of the other 4 have quality but no heart.

 

So we were more fucked then than we are today.

 

However Benitez would have kept us up still with a whole season by using different players imo.

[Hanshithispantz]

For some context, Mohamed Diame is our best player.

[TheHoob]

For some context, Mohamed Diame is our best player.

 

 

His tactics can be frustrating at times, but anyone who thinks that his tactics and methods have lost us more points this season than they've won us is utterly mental.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

For some context, Mohamed Diame is our best player.

 

I can see why Rafa now has him in the team as he presses hard, can link up play and is a goal threat. But he’s shagged after 50 minutes as evidence against Palace. First half he was great I thought, although the yellow he got also curtailed his press game.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

For some context, Mohamed Diame is our best player.

 

 

His tactics can be frustrating at times, but anyone who thinks that his tactics and methods have lost us more points this season than they've won us is utterly mental.

 

At home they have, IMO of course as I know how touchy some are if any criticism of Rafa is forthcoming...

[triggs]

To be honest I’m not sure that team pisses over our current team at all. Of the seven central players aka the spine, 5 of them are clearly in the running for some of the worst players to play (regularly) for us in the last 25 years

 

Then three of the other 4 have quality but no heart.

 

So we were more fucked then than we are today.

 

However Benitez would have kept us up still with a whole season by using different players imo.

No way

[Mike]

For some context, Mohamed Diame is our best player.

 

[Hanshithispantz]

FWIW I do think McClaren's squad was almost as bad, there really isn't much in it. The poor cunt had a midfield of Jack Colback and Vurnon Anita for half a season. He shouldn't have been given the job and personally I was happy to fuck him off at any point in the hope of us getting a proper manager in, regardless of how well he was doing. But aye, maybe he was 'hard done too', any manager is after half a season really.

 

He also just looked completely defeated, the contrast with Rafa when we're on a shit run is huge.

[steve_69]

Other than general lack of ability in the first team, the thing that cost us the most points this season is individual errors not Rafa's tactics.

We must've surrendered 10-12 points in very winnable games from doing stupid shit. The blame for those incidents does not lie at Rafa's door. Once the players take to the field it's down to them to keep their composure and concentration, and carry out the manager's tactics. If they'd done that minus the stupid errors we'd be near enough safe by now.

[TRon]

Other than general lack of ability in the first team, the thing that cost us the most points this season is individual errors not Rafa's tactics.

We must've surrendered 10-12 points in very winnable games from doing stupid shit. The blame for those incidents does not lie at Rafa's door. Once the players take to the field it's down to them to keep their composure and concentration, and carry out the manager's tactics. If they'd done that minus the stupid errors we'd be near enough safe by now.

 

The individual errors are quite often because they just aren't good enough. Clark couldn't handle Benteke in the air on Sunday for example so ended up tugging his shirt out of sheer desperation. Yedlin isn't naturally a good defender so he was always going to hold back from closing Zaha down properly. It's what you get when you buy players for £3-5m. I haven't even mentioned the strikers or midfielders, but it's the same story.

[Hanshithispantz]

Clark pulls attackers shirts all the time. I know the penalty seemed harsh but he's been asking for it all season.

[xLiaaamx]

McClaren's piss poor spine was his own fault though. His fault for deciding to get Coloccini to sign a new deal, and not put any faith in Lascelles. Even to the point Williamson was going to start the season ahead of him. Also his own fault he couldn't see Abeid was a better player than Anita and Colback by miles and binned him off.

[Ikon]

This thread...

[triggs]

McClaren's piss poor spine was his own fault though. His fault for deciding to get Coloccini to sign a new deal, and not put any faith in Lascelles. Even to the point Williamson was going to start the season ahead of him. Also his own fault he couldn't see Abeid was a better player than Anita and Colback by miles and binned him off.

Tbf Lascelles had been awful in pre season and was barely able to move at the time he was so big in the upper body

[steve_69]

Other than general lack of ability in the first team, the thing that cost us the most points this season is individual errors not Rafa's tactics.

We must've surrendered 10-12 points in very winnable games from doing stupid s***. The blame for those incidents does not lie at Rafa's door. Once the players take to the field it's down to them to keep their composure and concentration, and carry out the manager's tactics. If they'd done that minus the stupid errors we'd be near enough safe by now.

 

The individual errors are quite often because they just aren't good enough. Clark couldn't handle Benteke in the air on Sunday for example so ended up tugging his shirt out of sheer desperation. Yedlin isn't naturally a good defender so he was always going to hold back from closing Zaha down properly. It's what you get when you buy players for £3-5m. I haven't even mentioned the strikers or midfielders, but it's the same story.

 

100%.

Joselu single-handedly cost us 2 points against Burnley, Lejeune's penalty concession against Southampton cost us 2 points, Darlow's howler against Everton cost us a point. They're just the ones i can remember off the top of my head. I guess if Clark hadn't given away the penalty against Palace we might've got the 3 points. That's 7 points gone in 4 calamitous incidents. I'm sure there are others as well.

 

I expect someone will point out that Joselu, Lejeune and Clark are Rafa signings (because it fits their agenda) but if Rafa had been given the resources he should've been, none of those players would be anywhere near the NUFC first team.

[Conjo]

No context is acceptable We could swap squads with Gateshead and it'd still be SMH Rafa onlee 6 wins same as Steve.

The whole conversation is about context. Though perhaps the world beaters below (chosen purely on appearances) are really ‘much better’ than what we have. Don’t see it, myself.

2015-16 (most appearances)

                                            Elliot 22

Janmaat 35  Mbemba 35  Coloccini 27  Dummett 24

 

Sissoko 37  Anita 29    Colback 29    Wijnaldum 40

 

                  Perez 37  Mitrovic 36

 

Subs:

Darlow 10

Lascelles 21 Taylor 10

Tiote 22 Shelvey 13 Thauvin 16

De Jong 22

Cisse 21

 

To be fair, besides Janmaat, Sissoko and Wijnaldum, that starting 11 is so shite in hindsight it is no surprise we got relegated regardless of who the manager was.

 

Mbemba - Was new to the league, is currently our 4th choice CB

Coloccini - Was past it, no desire and wanted to be somewhere else

Dummett - Still stinks the place up, treating the ball as burning lava

Anita - Dwarf who currently struggles to get a game at Leeds

Cack Jogback -

Perez - Still bumbles around the pitch for us with the odd show of skill

Mitrovic - Was new to the league, shows no sign of wanting to improve and has been shipped out on loan to a championship club

 

I'd argue that our starting 11 now is stronger than it was purely because it is more balanced even though we had better individual quality in the one that got relegated.

 

Edit: I still think its bs to suggest Rafa is doing poorly with the means he has to operate within as there are many other factors to consider in this shit discussion.

[xLiaaamx]

14/15's was worse than the one that actually went down anyway.

[TRon]

Other than general lack of ability in the first team, the thing that cost us the most points this season is individual errors not Rafa's tactics.

We must've surrendered 10-12 points in very winnable games from doing stupid s***. The blame for those incidents does not lie at Rafa's door. Once the players take to the field it's down to them to keep their composure and concentration, and carry out the manager's tactics. If they'd done that minus the stupid errors we'd be near enough safe by now.

 

The individual errors are quite often because they just aren't good enough. Clark couldn't handle Benteke in the air on Sunday for example so ended up tugging his shirt out of sheer desperation. Yedlin isn't naturally a good defender so he was always going to hold back from closing Zaha down properly. It's what you get when you buy players for £3-5m. I haven't even mentioned the strikers or midfielders, but it's the same story.

 

100%.

Joselu single-handedly cost us 2 points against Burnley, Lejeune's penalty concession against Southampton cost us 2 points, Darlow's howler against Everton cost us a point. They're just the ones i can remember off the top of my head. I guess if Clark hadn't given away the penalty against Palace we might've got the 3 points. That's 7 points gone in 4 calamitous incidents. I'm sure there are others as well.

 

I expect someone will point out that Joselu, Lejeune and Clark are Rafa signings (because it fits their agenda) but if Rafa had been given the resources he should've been, none of those players would be anywhere near the NUFC first team.

 

People talk about how we've got no proper strikers, but tbh, the defence is very poor as well. We need to score at least two goals to stand a chance of winning because you can guarantee we will concede at least one daft goal a game. Just look at the calibre of the back five. Most of them are in the £3-5m range I mentioned with the exception of Lejeune, and he's clearly still settling in a foreign league. You would back a lot of other struggling teams to hold out on Sunday against Man U to give themselves a chance of winning, but you know fine well we are going to concede at least two goals over the 90 mins. The only games we can win are against those who have as shite an attack as us.

[timeEd32]

This is one of the worst debates in the history of this forum. The whole premise is flawed as it's predicated on comparing players Rafa has had time to manage vs. ones he didn't. You can't actually compare anything fairly.

 

People arguing about whether Sissoko and Wijnaldum would actually improve our current team?  If your argument is they weren't motivated, whose fucking fault is that? And if you genuinely believe our current squad is better then surely you can see that Rafa deserves credit for making that happen with both hands tied behind his back?

 

Can someone wake me up when we play again?