Sima Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 I reckon FPP already have a buyer for the land knowing that these diddleywhacks will default. They'll flip it as soon as it heads south imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 If they genuinely wanted to buy them and make a success of them they’d already be in charge. They know they’re dealing with a couple of fuckwits and are going to watch the club fall to its knees before taking over once The Don defaults. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 Course the league would let them in, the tests aren't exactly stringent. Imagine them giving the ok to these chancers but pieing off a bunch of mega rich yank businessmen That's IF the yank who gave them the finance see it as a football club as opposed to development land. The big million dollar question. If they were really that interested in the football club then they would have taken over already. but isn't that dickhead wanting £30-40m for it, if you're the yanks why not lend them £10m and if they fail to pay take the lot for a fraction of the asking price? I’m with mojo on this. If you can get an asset now for 30, 40 or even 50m the Don thinks it’s worth, or provide a loan you get interest on and probably allows to take control for only the 10 million loan value then waiting a few months to save paying over the odds is a no brainer for a business man. As for their future plans for the club if they get it, I don’t think anybody outside of them and a few trusted advisors really knows. The Don alluded to them seeming trustworthy, but he was desperate for an input of cash and hardly the best judge of character going of his record in appointing key people so far. I enjoy seeing them falter to a certain extent, but I hope they survive and get their day in the sun again. As fans of a club owned by a clueless twat and knowing what their club means to their fans like ours to us, I wouldn’t wish administration on them or any fan of any other football club. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoot Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 Well, just to provide balance, I hope they drop even further and then go out of business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest godzilla Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 Course the league would let them in, the tests aren't exactly stringent. Imagine them giving the ok to these chancers but pieing off a bunch of mega rich yank businessmen That's IF the yank who gave them the finance see it as a football club as opposed to development land. The big million dollar question. If they were really that interested in the football club then they would have taken over already. but isn't that dickhead wanting £30-40m for it, if you're the yanks why not lend them £10m and if they fail to pay take the lot for a fraction of the asking price? I’m with mojo on this. If you can get an asset now for 30, 40 or even 50m the Don thinks it’s worth, or provide a loan you get interest on and probably allows to take control for only the 10 million loan value then waiting a few months to save paying over the odds is a no brainer for a business man. As for their future plans for the club if they get it, I don’t think anybody outside of them and a few trusted advisors really knows. The Don alluded to them seeming trustworthy, but he was desperate for an input of cash and hardly the best judge of character going of his record in appointing key people so far. I enjoy seeing them falter to a certain extent, but I hope they survive and get their day in the sun again. As fans of a club owned by a clueless t*** and knowing what their club means to their fans like ours to us, I wouldn’t wish administration on them or any fan of any other football club. Because if they went up he would be asking at least double that price. If they really wanted ownership of the club they would be the owners now; and not waiting on the off chance that SD will fail his agreed payments. You're also not taking into account the reports that they looked at the club inside out in the due diligence stage and walked away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 Course the league would let them in, the tests aren't exactly stringent. Imagine them giving the ok to these chancers but pieing off a bunch of mega rich yank businessmen That's IF the yank who gave them the finance see it as a football club as opposed to development land. The big million dollar question. If they were really that interested in the football club then they would have taken over already. but isn't that dickhead wanting £30-40m for it, if you're the yanks why not lend them £10m and if they fail to pay take the lot for a fraction of the asking price? I’m with mojo on this. If you can get an asset now for 30, 40 or even 50m the Don thinks it’s worth, or provide a loan you get interest on and probably allows to take control for only the 10 million loan value then waiting a few months to save paying over the odds is a no brainer for a business man. As for their future plans for the club if they get it, I don’t think anybody outside of them and a few trusted advisors really knows. The Don alluded to them seeming trustworthy, but he was desperate for an input of cash and hardly the best judge of character going of his record in appointing key people so far. I enjoy seeing them falter to a certain extent, but I hope they survive and get their day in the sun again. As fans of a club owned by a clueless t*** and knowing what their club means to their fans like ours to us, I wouldn’t wish administration on them or any fan of any other football club. Because if they went up he would be asking at least double that price. If they really wanted ownership of the club they would be the owners now; and not waiting on the off chance that SD will fail his agreed payments. You're also not taking into account the reports that they looked at the club inside out in the due diligence stage and walked away. I'd claim the opposite. They clearly did their due dillgence and concluded from it that the club was not worth the asking price, so went for the loan option with a shot at getting it for peanuts later down the line. Hence I don't really understand why people suggest "if they really wanted ownership of the club they would be the owners now". Obviously they didn't want it badly to be paying over the odds. You say they may have to pay double next year if they go up, but that may well be worth it to them, or even not in which case they wouldn't be interested anymore. Still doesn't mean they should have bought the club at the over the odds asking price The Don was clearly angling for. Makes me wonder where I've heard that before by the way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest godzilla Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 Course the league would let them in, the tests aren't exactly stringent. Imagine them giving the ok to these chancers but pieing off a bunch of mega rich yank businessmen That's IF the yank who gave them the finance see it as a football club as opposed to development land. The big million dollar question. If they were really that interested in the football club then they would have taken over already. but isn't that dickhead wanting £30-40m for it, if you're the yanks why not lend them £10m and if they fail to pay take the lot for a fraction of the asking price? I’m with mojo on this. If you can get an asset now for 30, 40 or even 50m the Don thinks it’s worth, or provide a loan you get interest on and probably allows to take control for only the 10 million loan value then waiting a few months to save paying over the odds is a no brainer for a business man. As for their future plans for the club if they get it, I don’t think anybody outside of them and a few trusted advisors really knows. The Don alluded to them seeming trustworthy, but he was desperate for an input of cash and hardly the best judge of character going of his record in appointing key people so far. I enjoy seeing them falter to a certain extent, but I hope they survive and get their day in the sun again. As fans of a club owned by a clueless t*** and knowing what their club means to their fans like ours to us, I wouldn’t wish administration on them or any fan of any other football club. Because if they went up he would be asking at least double that price. If they really wanted ownership of the club they would be the owners now; and not waiting on the off chance that SD will fail his agreed payments. You're also not taking into account the reports that they looked at the club inside out in the due diligence stage and walked away. I'd claim the opposite. They clearly did their due dillgence and concluded from it that the club was not worth the asking price, so went for the loan option with a shot at getting it for peanuts later down the line. Hence I don't really understand why people suggest "if they really wanted ownership of the club they would be the owners now". Obviously they didn't want it badly to be paying over the odds. You say they may have to pay double next year if they go up, but that may well be worth it to them, or even not in which case they wouldn't be interested anymore. Still doesn't mean they should have bought the club at the over the odds asking price The Don was clearly angling for. Makes me wonder where I've heard that before by the way. Totally disagree with everything you say. The loan is a loan no more, no less, with the guarantee of making money whatever the outcome. But, we will see who is right in the not to distant future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 If I wanted to take a struggling club over and get them moving forward then I'd want to do it asap. Even if that meant paying slightly over the odds, buying in August, appointing a manager of my choice and having a window in Jan to get promoted this year then I'd have done it. They may still want to take control, they may well have been put off by the price but the visions of becoming a super rich powerhouse are absolute shite. They'll want a return on their money and they'll get it one way or the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 They will do whatever gives them the highest return on their investment, I've never argued otherwise. It's just why would you invest 50m when you can get the asset for a fraction of that price a few months down the line? They may never get the club and only receive some interest until the loan is repaid, they may get control of the club and invest in its future, they may take control and asset strip the hell out of it, who knows, but the only thing I can't condone is the oft repeated "if they wanted the club they would be owners right now". It's the same as saying if someone wanted NUFC they would be owners right now. There are plenty of people who have shown a firm interest in buying the club but who have been put off by Ashley's asking price, his negotiation tactics or something they found during due dilligence. These Americans may want the club (for whatever motive), but that doesn't mean they are prepared to pay anything to get it; that's just not how smart investors and business men operate. I don't understand why that's so hard to understand? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest godzilla Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 They will do whatever gives them the highest return on their investment, I've never argued otherwise. It's just why would you invest 50m when you can get the asset for a fraction of that price a few months down the line? They may never get the club and only receive some interest until the loan is repaid, they may get control of the club and invest in its future, they may take control and asset strip the hell out of it, who knows, but the only thing I can't condone is the oft repeated "if they wanted the club they would be owners right now". It's the same as saying if someone wanted NUFC they would be owners right now. There are plenty of people who have shown a firm interest in buying the club but who have been put off by Ashley's asking price, his negotiation tactics or something they found during due dilligence. These Americans may want the club (for whatever motive), but that doesn't mean they are prepared to pay anything to get it; that's just not how smart investors and business men operate. I don't understand why that's so hard to understand? Because I think you're wrong, as I said time will tell though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 I understand the logic and reasoning I just don't agree with it! No biggie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 They will do whatever gives them the highest return on their investment, I've never argued otherwise. It's just why would you invest 50m when you can get the asset for a fraction of that price a few months down the line? They may never get the club and only receive some interest until the loan is repaid, they may get control of the club and invest in its future, they may take control and asset strip the hell out of it, who knows, but the only thing I can't condone is the oft repeated "if they wanted the club they would be owners right now". It's the same as saying if someone wanted NUFC they would be owners right now. There are plenty of people who have shown a firm interest in buying the club but who have been put off by Ashley's asking price, his negotiation tactics or something they found during due dilligence. These Americans may want the club (for whatever motive), but that doesn't mean they are prepared to pay anything to get it; that's just not how smart investors and business men operate. I don't understand why that's so hard to understand? Because I think you're wrong, as I said time will tell though. Just so I understand, in what scenario will you be proven right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 The loan was to simply 'keep them at the table' after the board either blew it in negotiations or the investors took a good look and realised it's too much work for them. SD didn't want to lose face after stating it was a 'done deal' and that they were 'loaded' knowing the fans would turn against him, and he was right. If they wanted or needed just a loan they could have arranged one through usual channels or leaned on Satori, instead they chose to mortgage the clubs only tangible assets for a measly £10m to keep them in touching distance with these potential owner/investor/asset stripper. As stated many a time, an investment vehicle that large, if remotely interested in a football club would have bought them there and then and sent the chancers packing. By all accounts Salmon pants brought them to the table in hope he was going to flip his share and walk off in to the sunset to pastures new. That hasn't happened and he's mask has gone from slipping, to crashing on the floor and being stood on, so SD has told him to fuck off or risk losing it all. For a PR man, he simply hasn't got a clue. He treat the fans with huge amounts of contempt, more so than Ashley with us, thinking they were nothing more than northern monkeys who he'd have eating out of his hand while lining his pockets. To be honest, it's a pretty fair assessment, they are dying to have something good, something positive after years of misery, but his lack of respect for the fans shone through every statement and in the end even the most hardened believer had seen through him and probably felt like the fools they'd been taken for. So this leaves 'The Don' (god bet that feels like a lifetime ago for them) stuck with a club he thought he'd also flip and cash out on by now, bleeding to death from a thousand financial cuts, that he doesn't want, can't afford and doesn't want him. He knows as much about football as the next man, and that is being very kind. He goes from one bad decision to another, alienating the fans with each step whilst moving further away from ever seeing his full investment back. He's a penny version of Mike Ashley, it's almost word for word on the playbook of misery we endured but on a quicker timescale. Unlike Mike's team they aren't financially stable and in league 3 where one bad mistake can ruin a club, and in all honesty i can pin point that mistake and it was selling Maja. Even letting him go for nowt in the summer would have easily seen them win the division and no doubt The Don would have seen his buyer come through. Instead he fucked around, pissed the agent off and when was in the weaker position went public to try and force the player Vs club to keep the fans onside. It all failed and in the end their desperation saw them part daft money on Grigg as his replacement. Snowballing from there every footballing decision can be linked back to that moment. I knew at the time it was a mistake, i didn't see it as (at least) a 2 season killer. One of my mates said to me last week 'the only good thing he's done for us since coming in is getting the seats replaced' i replied 'mate, even you lot did that and for free' that really sums up his tenure. The Don may not have put them in to their worst position in their history, but what he's done is make sure they've got very little chance of turning it around and seeing Premiership football again in a generation. It's honestly that bad and it can get a lot worse, depending on whether the loaners look at the club and decide they don't want it, would rather sell the training and academy for property development and rent back the stadium to whoever they sell the club to for a quid because that's all they'll be worth once they default on the loan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest godzilla Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 They will do whatever gives them the highest return on their investment, I've never argued otherwise. It's just why would you invest 50m when you can get the asset for a fraction of that price a few months down the line? They may never get the club and only receive some interest until the loan is repaid, they may get control of the club and invest in its future, they may take control and asset strip the hell out of it, who knows, but the only thing I can't condone is the oft repeated "if they wanted the club they would be owners right now". It's the same as saying if someone wanted NUFC they would be owners right now. There are plenty of people who have shown a firm interest in buying the club but who have been put off by Ashley's asking price, his negotiation tactics or something they found during due dilligence. These Americans may want the club (for whatever motive), but that doesn't mean they are prepared to pay anything to get it; that's just not how smart investors and business men operate. I don't understand why that's so hard to understand? Because I think you're wrong, as I said time will tell though. Just so I understand, in what scenario will you be proven right? That they don't take over the club as a result of this loan. If they wanted to own the club they would be in charge already. Simple really, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 They will do whatever gives them the highest return on their investment, I've never argued otherwise. It's just why would you invest 50m when you can get the asset for a fraction of that price a few months down the line? They may never get the club and only receive some interest until the loan is repaid, they may get control of the club and invest in its future, they may take control and asset strip the hell out of it, who knows, but the only thing I can't condone is the oft repeated "if they wanted the club they would be owners right now". It's the same as saying if someone wanted NUFC they would be owners right now. There are plenty of people who have shown a firm interest in buying the club but who have been put off by Ashley's asking price, his negotiation tactics or something they found during due dilligence. These Americans may want the club (for whatever motive), but that doesn't mean they are prepared to pay anything to get it; that's just not how smart investors and business men operate. I don't understand why that's so hard to understand? Because I think you're wrong, as I said time will tell though. Just so I understand, in what scenario will you be proven right? That they don't take over the club as a result of this loan. If they wanted to own the club they would be in charge already. Simple really, But that is not really up to the Americans surely? If Donald doesn't cough up his interest or repayments they take over by default unless they're happy to write off their 10m investment when they have the club, the ground and the training ground as collateral, which seems rather unlikely to me I must say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raconteur Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 They will do whatever gives them the highest return on their investment, I've never argued otherwise. It's just why would you invest 50m when you can get the asset for a fraction of that price a few months down the line? They may never get the club and only receive some interest until the loan is repaid, they may get control of the club and invest in its future, they may take control and asset strip the hell out of it, who knows, but the only thing I can't condone is the oft repeated "if they wanted the club they would be owners right now". It's the same as saying if someone wanted NUFC they would be owners right now. There are plenty of people who have shown a firm interest in buying the club but who have been put off by Ashley's asking price, his negotiation tactics or something they found during due dilligence. These Americans may want the club (for whatever motive), but that doesn't mean they are prepared to pay anything to get it; that's just not how smart investors and business men operate. I don't understand why that's so hard to understand? Because I think you're wrong, as I said time will tell though. Just so I understand, in what scenario will you be proven right? That they don't take over the club as a result of this loan. If they wanted to own the club they would be in charge already. Simple really, I note that you failed to respond to Unbelievable's very pertinent observation: It's the same as saying if someone wanted NUFC they would be owners right now. There are plenty of people who have shown a firm interest in buying the club but who have been put off by Ashley's asking price, his negotiation tactics or something they found during due diligence. Your analysis suggests that no one really wants NUFC because they didn't pay a premium - in exactly the same way these bozos didn't pay an inflated price for Sunderland. In fact, you could argue that trying to get the club for only a 10m investment means they want the club to succeed more, because they're holding onto their cash in order to invest it into rebuilding the club after they get full ownership. Just saying "Nope, you're wrong" in the face of a logical and valid argument doesn't win you the argument... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest godzilla Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 They will do whatever gives them the highest return on their investment, I've never argued otherwise. It's just why would you invest 50m when you can get the asset for a fraction of that price a few months down the line? They may never get the club and only receive some interest until the loan is repaid, they may get control of the club and invest in its future, they may take control and asset strip the hell out of it, who knows, but the only thing I can't condone is the oft repeated "if they wanted the club they would be owners right now". It's the same as saying if someone wanted NUFC they would be owners right now. There are plenty of people who have shown a firm interest in buying the club but who have been put off by Ashley's asking price, his negotiation tactics or something they found during due dilligence. These Americans may want the club (for whatever motive), but that doesn't mean they are prepared to pay anything to get it; that's just not how smart investors and business men operate. I don't understand why that's so hard to understand? Because I think you're wrong, as I said time will tell though. Just so I understand, in what scenario will you be proven right? That they don't take over the club as a result of this loan. If they wanted to own the club they would be in charge already. Simple really, But that is not really up to the Americans surely? If Donald doesn't cough up his interest or repayments they take over by default unless they're happy to write off their 10m investment when they have the club, the ground and the training ground as collateral, which seems rather unlikely to me I must say. Don't think he will not cough up that's my point and I don't think the Americans would put the gamble of owning the club (if they really wanted it) based on that either. I think it's a loan and nothing more from which they will make money off either way. If the Don pays they get the interest, if not then they will just sell it off for double/treble the price of the loan, or look at development options. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest godzilla Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 They will do whatever gives them the highest return on their investment, I've never argued otherwise. It's just why would you invest 50m when you can get the asset for a fraction of that price a few months down the line? They may never get the club and only receive some interest until the loan is repaid, they may get control of the club and invest in its future, they may take control and asset strip the hell out of it, who knows, but the only thing I can't condone is the oft repeated "if they wanted the club they would be owners right now". It's the same as saying if someone wanted NUFC they would be owners right now. There are plenty of people who have shown a firm interest in buying the club but who have been put off by Ashley's asking price, his negotiation tactics or something they found during due dilligence. These Americans may want the club (for whatever motive), but that doesn't mean they are prepared to pay anything to get it; that's just not how smart investors and business men operate. I don't understand why that's so hard to understand? Because I think you're wrong, as I said time will tell though. Just so I understand, in what scenario will you be proven right? That they don't take over the club as a result of this loan. If they wanted to own the club they would be in charge already. Simple really, I note that you failed to respond to Unbelievable's very pertinent observation: It's the same as saying if someone wanted NUFC they would be owners right now. There are plenty of people who have shown a firm interest in buying the club but who have been put off by Ashley's asking price, his negotiation tactics or something they found during due diligence. Your analysis suggests that no one really wants NUFC because they didn't pay a premium - in exactly the same way these bozos didn't pay an inflated price for Sunderland. In fact, you could argue that trying to get the club for only a 10m investment means they want the club to succeed more, because they're holding onto their cash in order to invest it into rebuilding the club after they get full ownership. Just saying "Nope, you're wrong" in the face of a logical and valid argument doesn't win you the argument... No I'm saying they were put off by the price by the due diligence and are not interested in buying the club. Massive difference between NUFC and Sunderland currently also, so they are not a like for like comparison either (as we are not with Man City). Sunderland are worth less than a tenth the current price of NUFC for a start. I'm also saying the loan imo is purely a loan and not investment. In my opinion he is wrong (if you don't like that - tough). I did however say we will find out for sure in time (which we will), so I don't actually think it won me the argument either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raconteur Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 Yes, you certainly didn't win anything with that demonstration of reasoned debating Curious to see you develop the notion that a loan is not an investment. Even if your thesis has merit, "loaning" 10m in the expectation of having it repaid plus interest is pretty much the definition of an investment. You've not really made a good case that a principle you invented (if they wanted it, they would have bought it) can't be applied to other entities, or scaled up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest godzilla Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 Yes, you certainly didn't win anything with that demonstration of reasoned debating Curious to see you develop the notion that a loan is not an investment. Even if your thesis has merit, "loaning" 10m in the expectation of having it repaid plus interest is pretty much the definition of an investment. You've not really made a good case that a principle you invented (if they wanted it, they would have bought it) can't be applied to other entities, or scaled up. Makes a lot more sense than your hypothesis. A loan is investment, yet is made on the threat of having the club handed over to them on a plate. That is not investment it’s similar to me having a mortgage and then my home is taken away if I fail to keep up repayments. That’s not investment it’s credit. I invented ?? I think if you look at other replies over the last few pages there are a few more saying similar. Time will tell ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 classic bit of NO there, arguing over absolutely fuck all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hhtoon Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 I assumed the Americans looked at the books and valued the club as X. The Don has overvalued it as Y based on potential. Americans offered £10m now as a loan, which if promoted this season will be exchanged for a % of the club at a league 1 value i.e. if promoted then their % will increase in line with Champ value. They have minimal risk as if not promoted they get their £10m back. If promoted, they have a sizeable share of an appreciating asset. Don gains as he has £10m now rather than using his own funds and a commitment in the future from a significant investor. Would have been a plan if they weren't so monumentally shit this season Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest covmag Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 So are they fucked ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoot Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 So are they fucked ? To wrap up the last couple of pages, aye, they're fucked! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stifler Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 So are they fucked ? If they don’t go up this season, yes. This is their last season of parachute payments, and that’s not even considering the possibility that they all go to Short. Their crowds are dwindling, which is fast becoming their main source of revenue. Add on top of the fact that they are now £10m in debt, which for the level they are at, is a huge amount. There is a real possibility that if they don’t go up this season, then they’ll be stuck there for quite a while. Sunderland, like us should have been able to attract decent owners in the Premier League, and even Championship. Instead they got the fraudster they have now, with the very real possibility of staying abandoned in the lower leagues. It baffles me that some people want us to fall to a similar level to get rid of Ashley, knowing that this could be a possibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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