The Gareth Southgate Appreciation Thread (Warning may contain lots of words)

[Dave]

Tactically not great in terms of finding a plan B and his subs are too late, but he's revolutionised the connection the players have with each other, their connection with the media, and their connection with us. The way he's got players playing with smiles on their faces and playing to their strengths has been again almost revolutionary. Man for man, this team is one of the poorer England teams I've seen and nothing compared to the players in the '02-'10 squad. As a team though, they shit all over them, more confidence, more cohesion, more of an actual plan, and more desire to get at teams and hurt them.

 

All of that is down to Southgate and he should be applauded, he's got a nation feeling like England fans again and that's a pretty mint achievement considering the animosity towards them over the years and how ubiquitously divided we are.  We might not have gone this far without the draw, but we still had to do it, and it was in the  context of us losing to Iceland 2 years ago and having not won a knockout game in years. With that in mind it's such a guttner to go out like that when we should have wrapped it all up in the first half.

 

[BlufPurdi]

[54]

Tactically not great in terms of finding a plan B and his subs are too late, but he's revolutionised the connection the players have with each other, their connection with the media, and their connection with us. The way he's got players playing with smiles on their faces and playing to their strengths has been again almost revolutionary. Man for man, this team is one of the poorer England teams I've seen and nothing compared to the players in the '02-'10 squad. As a team though, they shit all over them, more confidence, more cohesion, more of an actual plan, and more desire to get at teams and hurt them.

 

All of that is down to Southgate and he should be applauded, he's got a nation feeling like England fans again and that's a pretty mint achievement considering the animosity towards them over the years and how ubiquitously divided we are.  We might not have gone this far without the draw, but we still had to do it, and it was in the  context of us losing to Iceland 2 years ago and having not won a knockout game in years. With that in mind it's such a guttner to go out like that when we should have wrapped it all up in the first half.

 

 

I said no matter what happens, he deserves huge credit for the job he has done thus far and I personally cannot be more appreciative of what he has done and the effort of the players. I thought we would struggle to get out of the group stages and would have been amazed at a quarter final so a semi was beyond my wildest dreams. I just hope this isn’t his ceiling or purple patch, same with the team because I see what he and they are trying to do and it’s the only way forward for us, we cannot go back. So they all have to pick themselves up, learn from this and not let it become their moment. Keep developing and look to go one better at the Euros. the future is bright and I a, extremely proud of our manager and players which I haven’t been so for a long long time.

 

Here, Here.

[Anderson]

Threads:

 

 

 

Hopefully this is just a start.

[tmonkey]

Trying not to be too reactionary but I’m not convinced by him as a manager still. Nearly threw the game away against Colombia with the Dier sub and totally failed to react to Croatia after half time, it was painfully obvious Vrsaljko was going to hurt us by allowing him acres of space to whip in crosses anytime he wanted. Think we win that tonight with a more tactically astute manager.

 

Obviously it’s great to make a WC semi final and he and the team come across as a lot more likeable than previous squads but when you take each game into isolation we’ve not been that great, just extremely fortunate we had an opportunity to throw a game to give us such an easy draw.

 

Fully agree.

 

Alot of the praise smacks of being far too lenient/eager at this point in time imo, and it's always been like this when someone has a slightly fortunate run (Pardew 5th for example). If you look into actual performances and the opposition instead of how far we got on paper, it's a bit of a different story. We didn't beat anyone of note, and the two barely half decent teams we came across (Columbia minus their star player, Croatia knackered after two games that went the full distance in a row) dominated us comfortably over 120 minutes and made us look the inferior side with inferior footballer incapable of retaining possession or stringing a few passes together. Look at our game plan for the most part against both Columbia and Croatia - long balls over the top and attacking set pieces with big guys. If that was an Allardyce/Pardew team #hoofball would be trending. Is that progressive football? If Pep Guardiola was given the England job and had a few years to drill a play style in them, is this how you think we'd be playing? No chance.

 

Nothing has really changed imo beyond a few "brave" selections. In past tournaments England were shit as soon as we faced a more technical side, now we just have younger players failing to control a football properly under pressure instead of more experienced/older names. As a side note, in some previous tournaments we faced some fucking amazing teams with fucking amazing players. Remember Brazil with Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Rivaldo up front and Carfu/Roberto Carlos all in the same team? Argentina with the likes of Batistuta, Zanetti, Ortega, Veron, Ayala? How is it really fair to be praising Southgate so much when we haven't come close to even an inch of the quality of opposition that some previous England managers have had to face, or are we just comparing to Hodgson?

 

Back to Southgate, some of the praise for his squad selection is a bit strange. Who has he really left out for which he was "brave" or made the right decision in terms of going for youth? Rooney, who is so over the hill he was released on a free by ManU, then Everton, and is now in the MLS? Majority of the teams that started against Iceland a couple of years ago are still here. Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes, Beckham, Rio, John Terry, all retired. Maybe Milner, Llalana and Hart, but they're hardly world class talents and all of the players Gareth selected are equivalent or better in terms of reputation and performances. The praise Southgate is getting for going with picks that were hardly risque is over the top. Being brave would have meant taking the likes of Shelvey and Wilshere and looking to dominate the opposition through ball control/passing instead of pissing his pants filling the midfield slots with mediocre defensive players. Being brave would have meant potentially leaving out the current big name English players for tactical or ball retention reasons (e.g. Alli, who is entirely an off-the-ball player).

 

I also think this entire propaganda drive to get us more patriotic, which started in the build up to the 2012 Olympics and has led to a systematic failure of pundits/commentators to be both impartial and critical of English sportsmen/players/managers, is behind some of this spunkfest over Southgate's bravery in going for young lads. Alot of brain washing about how young they are when we're talking about £50m-£150m rated Premiership players, all of them first teamers or near abouts. Whilst I wouldn't want the type of toxic campaigns against the England manager from the press that the likes of Sir Bobby had to endure, it's sickening to see nothing but praise and positivity towards someone clearly making errors in judgement, as though any objective criticism is tantamount to treason. It's this type of mentality that leads to the likes of Pardew, Allardyce, whoever, continuing to operate without any real scrutiny or ever being called out.

 

He's earnt a few more tournaments now, by default. Whether that's good or not, time will tell.

[Hanshithispantz]

"instead of pissing his pants filling the midfield slots with mediocre defensive players"

 

I think he wanted energy in midfield rather than defensive shite like. He made some weird calls definitely, but the way he's actually got us playing a completely new system comfortably is impressive. He obviously knows what he's doing.

[toon25]

He’s undoubtedly an articulate chap with good ideas. But the reality is that the formation he wants to play with will be quickly sussed by the better sides who can play around it - especially with the number of square pegs in round holes. Lingard is obviously a useful player, as is Alli, but neither are really central midfielders in the same way that Walker isn’t a centre back. It’ll be a learning curve for him for sure, I just hope he tries to find players that better suit his system.

[Hanshithispantz]

He’s undoubtedly an articulate chap with good ideas. But the reality is that the formation he wants to play with will be quickly sussed by the better sides who can play around it - especially with the number of square pegs in round holes. Lingard is obviously a useful player, as is Alli, but neither are really central midfielders in the same way that Walker isn’t a centre back. It’ll be a learning curve for him for sure, I just hope he tries to find players that better suit his system.

That was noticeable when Croatia switched play like. They were always in acres of space.

 

Given 2 year I'd trust him to come up with another plan like.

[Beren]

I'm inclined to agree with tmonkey. The bar has been set so horrifically low by previous managers that Southgate is getting a rimming for not much. He fell short in a lot of key areas IMO.

[Mole_Toonfan]

For those talking about lack of plan B, what alternative is there?  I think the lack of strength in depth to pick from is more of an issue than anything Southgate can do.

 

We saw that against Belgium, their depth was way stronger than ours. I just think atm there isn't much beyond the first XI.

 

Hopefully we develop some in the future.

[BlackandWhite]

He is getting more credit than what is due because of a very favorable World Cup that has been kind in my opinion.

 

Had the Belgium result been reversed it would have been bye bye after playing Brazil imo.

 

Only really played 3 decent teams in the tournament lost 2 and scraped past the other on penos.

[Guest firetotheworks]

 

 

For those talking about lack of plan B, what alternative is there?  I think the lack of strength in depth to pick from is more of an issue than anything Southgate can do.

 

We saw that against Belgium, their depth was way stronger than ours. I just think atm there isn't much beyond the first XI.

 

Hopefully we develop some in the future.

 

Vardy with a good midfield passer like Shelvey, a striker who can hold up long balls like Carroll, we took none of those sort of players aside from Vardy. The squad players were there to fit into plan A and plan A was all there was.

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

Expectations are going to be through the roof for the next euros

 

Don't get it, mate.

[triggs]

He is getting more credit than what is due because of a very favorable World Cup that has been kind in my opinion.

 

Had the Belgium result been reversed it would have been bye bye after playing Brazil imo.

 

Only really played 3 decent teams in the tournament lost 2 and scraped past the other on penos.

Agree with this on the football side of things. He's clearly done a great job at getting the public behind the team and all that mind

[toon25]

100% this.

 

Think it was actually unfortunate that the pretournament realism had been  blown away after Panama. If Southgate can in some way influence expectations we’ll be able to better reflect on tournament performances. If we see this WC for what it is, some progress has defo been made in terms of reinvigorating support for England - dare I say making the efforts of the players more honest? They’ve done well, but the ‘it’s coming home’ nonsense should be put into context.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Don't understand anyone criticising him tbh, he put together a squad which for the first time since 96 feels like a team not a bunch of individuals.

 

People have been saying for years "why can't the national team play like a premier league team"  and "why can't they play like do for their clubs".

 

For the most part he achieved something the England team hasn't seen in more than 20 years, that alone is a fantastic achievement he deserves immense credit for.

[Guest firetotheworks]

He is getting more credit than what is due because of a very favorable World Cup that has been kind in my opinion.

 

Had the Belgium result been reversed it would have been bye bye after playing Brazil imo.

 

Only really played 3 decent teams in the tournament lost 2 and scraped past the other on penos.

We hadn't won a knockout game in 12 years and lost against Iceland 2 years ago. I think you're being a bit harsh. We still had to win and we did. Should have won tonight imo.

[Mole_Toonfan]

 

 

For those talking about lack of plan B, what alternative is there?  I think the lack of strength in depth to pick from is more of an issue than anything Southgate can do.

 

We saw that against Belgium, their depth was way stronger than ours. I just think atm there isn't much beyond the first XI.

 

Hopefully we develop some in the future.

 

Vardy with a good midfield passer like Shelvey, a striker who can hold up long balls like Carroll, we took none of those sort of players aside from Vardy. The squad players were there to fit into plan A and plan A was all there was.

 

Doubt any of that changes anything tbh, the fact we are scraping the barrel with those players says all you need to know imo.

[Guest firetotheworks]

 

 

 

 

For those talking about lack of plan B, what alternative is there?  I think the lack of strength in depth to pick from is more of an issue than anything Southgate can do.

 

We saw that against Belgium, their depth was way stronger than ours. I just think atm there isn't much beyond the first XI.

 

Hopefully we develop some in the future.

 

Vardy with a good midfield passer like Shelvey, a striker who can hold up long balls like Carroll, we took none of those sort of players aside from Vardy. The squad players were there to fit into plan A and plan A was all there was.

 

Doubt any of that changes anything tbh, the fact we are scraping the barrel with those players says all you need to know imo.

 

Maybe so, but it still shows we have no plan B, which is what you were asking about.

[Hanshithispantz]

I don't think it can be underestimated just how poor our player pool is like, we're never going to be able to play like Belgium. From a footballing perspective I was massively impressed tbh.

 

Defensively we're error prone but that's really the only criticism I can think of.

[Gallowgate Toon]

We did play well for good spells of Colombia and Croatia, like, which is a vast improvement on other recent tournaments where we've had to play better sides. I'd say we deserved to win both games, overall. Belgium was meh.

 

The issue with Southgate is his in-game management. He seems good at getting pieces prepared but when it comes to actually changing things up, he responded in pretty much exactly the same way against both Croatia and Colombia - reactionary and short-sighted, taking off critical players to our system with quite illogical replacements. I still can't get over how he couldn't see the fucking huge midfield problem we had for an hour tonight - the strongest part of their team and we didn't even dare to change it up, we didn't give them anything new to think about. I'd understand it if Alli & Lingard were astute defensive players, but they're not, they're not even Centre Mids.

 

I think we have the base of a plan and a good core to move forward with, but it needs far better balance going forward.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I don't think it can be underestimated just how poor our player pool is like, we're never going to be able to play like Belgium. From a footballing perspective I was massively impressed tbh.

 

Defensively we're error prone but that's really the only criticism I can think of.

Same, more than anything it was fun. I was shitting myself pre tournament with that back three, yet the player we were all probably most worried about was the best of the three. Football's mad.

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

We did play well for good spells of Colombia and Croatia, like, which is a vast improvement on other recent tournaments where we've had to play better sides. I'd say we deserved to win both games, overall. Belgium was meh.

 

The issue with Southgate is his in-game management. He seems good at getting pieces prepared but when it comes to actually changing things up, he responded in pretty much exactly the same way against both Croatia and Colombia - reactionary and short-sighted, taking off critical players to our system with quite illogical replacements. I still can't get over how he couldn't see the fucking huge midfield problem we had for an hour tonight - the strongest part of their team and we didn't even dare to change it up, we didn't give them anything new to think about. I'd understand it if Alli & Lingard were astute defensive players, but they're not, they're not even Centre Mids.

 

I think we have the base of a plan and a good core to move forward with, but it needs far better balance going forward.

 

We didn't deserve to win both games. We deserved to win the one we won.

[Jaqen]

For those talking about lack of plan B, what alternative is there?  I think the lack of strength in depth to pick from is more of an issue than anything Southgate can do.

 

We saw that against Belgium, their depth was way stronger than ours. I just think atm there isn't much beyond the first XI.

 

Hopefully we develop some in the future.

 

Personally think we were crying out for a change in shape/formation in the second half. Croatia took a while to adjust but their manager sussed it and we never reacted to them at all. We had to deal with their fullbacks particularly Vrsaljko and we ignored it and it ending us costing us the equaliser.

 

The formation worked well against lesser sides when we could dominate the ball a bit more and use our wing backs to stretch sides and bomb forward. Once Croatia got a hold of the ball they just had us pinned back and we had no wide players to cover or track their overlaps or to offer a threat in behind them on the counter. 

 

 

[Crumpy Gunt]

Southgate showed his limitations.

 

Can start well...Columbia and Croatia. But couldn't counter their tactical changes mainly in 2nd half. Got all the results you would expect.

4-4-2 tonight when the Croats began to dominate the middle. Stifle their game. Kane looked limited.