Joelinton: will not play against Everton (Howe)

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

Robbed.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

3 hours ago, SAK said:

Did people seriously think he’d get a World Cup call up without ever representing Brazil before?

Nah. 

[mikejaxer]

3 hours ago, SAK said:

Did people seriously think he’d get a World Cup call up without ever representing Brazil before?

Probably not but crazier things have happened

[JNK]

OK, as a brazilian and someone who watched Tite's work closely I will explain why Big Joe wasn't in the final 26.

 

He just started playing well way too late.

 

Tite valuer hierarchy, so, if you've performed well consistently for the national team you will have a spot until someone consistently outshines you.

That's why Fred is a starter, think 2 years ago, Arthur was rubbish and  Fred gave our mid deffensive security, now I think 9 out 10 coaches would play Bruno in that spot, but Bruno was rubbish in his only start for the main squad, so, Fred being his senior is the starter.

 

That line of thinking extends to the whole squad, if, Big Joe started playing this well 6 months to 1 year prior he'd be on the squad today. 

Being honest, I'm amazed he made the 55 short list. 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by JNK

[r0cafella]

10 minutes ago, JNK said:

OK, as a brazilian and someone who watched Tite's work closely I will explain why Big Joe wasn't in the final 26.

 

He just started playing well way too late.

 

Tite valuer hierarchy, so, if you've performed well consistently for the national team you will have a spot until someone consistently outshines you.

That's why Fred is a starter, think 2 years ago, Arthur was rubbish and  Fred gave our mid deffensive security, now I think 9 out 10 coaches would play Bruno in that spot, but Bruno was rubbish in his only start for the main squad, so, Fred being his senior is the starter.

 

That line of thinking extends to the whole squad, if, Big Joe started playing this well 6 months to 1 year prior he'd be on the squad today. 

Being honest, I'm amazed he made the 55 short list. 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the insight, he’s been playing like a beast for a year now but it tite is sleeping on the job that’s brazils loss. 

[huss9]

4 hours ago, NE27 said:

 

Leicester won a PL with Danny Simpson in their side, never looked at football in the same way since.

stephane guivarc'h says hi.

[Jaqen]

I might be in the minority but think there's a good player in Fred somewhere. Wouldn't be surprised if he performs well for Brazil. 

[80]

31 minutes ago, huss9 said:

stephane guivarc'h says hi.

2004 Greece says yassou.

[HawK]

13 hours ago, SAK said:

Did people seriously think he’d get a World Cup call up without ever representing Brazil before?

 

Theo Walcott says hi.

 

Spoiler

Darren Bent dislikes this.

 

[Tiresias]

I actually don't think Fred is that bad, he is a scapegoat for a whole team never coached to play passing football and because he is a bit of a jack of all trades master of none. He looks a very handy player to have around, but probably not a starter for a serious squad looking to win things but definitely on the bench. Still would have Joe of course but I'm not sure Fred is as bad as some Man U fans make out, there's just been a total lack of technical coaching for a long time and they have been allergic to buying good midfielders to help him until this season when they got Eriksen and Casimero, and even now they are wedded to a 4-2-3-1 formation cos they have to play Fernandez but he doesnt work in any position but number 10, and so you end up with a flat midfield 2 that is normally overwhelmed in games unless one player has a barnstormer. Few things I hate more than the midfield double pivot.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Tiresias

[Joey47]

10 hours ago, JNK said:

OK, as a brazilian and someone who watched Tite's work closely I will explain why Big Joe wasn't in the final 26.

 

He just started playing well way too late.

 

Tite valuer hierarchy, so, if you've performed well consistently for the national team you will have a spot until someone consistently outshines you.

That's why Fred is a starter, think 2 years ago, Arthur was rubbish and  Fred gave our mid deffensive security, now I think 9 out 10 coaches would play Bruno in that spot, but Bruno was rubbish in his only start for the main squad, so, Fred being his senior is the starter.

 

That line of thinking extends to the whole squad, if, Big Joe started playing this well 6 months to 1 year prior he'd be on the squad today. 

Being honest, I'm amazed he made the 55 short list. 

 

 

 

 

 

What do you predict the starting 11 to be? 

 

Seems insane to me that Bruno won't be starting, I understand to some degree the whole heirachy thing even though I disagree with it. Southgate is similar in that sense and it's probably the reason Maddison won't be starting for England this world cup. 

[MrRaspberryJam]

From a purely selfish perspective, got no problems with Joelinton not being called up and Bruno not being a starter. 

 

I really can't wait for this WC to be over so the league can start again. 

[JNK]

2 hours ago, Joey47 said:

 

What do you predict the starting 11 to be? 

 

Seems insane to me that Bruno won't be starting, I understand to some degree the whole heirachy thing even though I disagree with it. Southgate is similar in that sense and it's probably the reason Maddison won't be starting for England this world cup. 

The main team is Alisson, Danilo, Thiago Silva Marquinhas and Alex Sandro, Casemiro, Fred (Vini Jr), Paqueta, Richarlison, Neymar and Raphinha.

 

Vini and Richarlison are actually contenders for Fred spot with Paquetá being the 2nd man in the midfield, but, if Brazil is gonna win this, we're gonna change this team during the cup. We've never won a title without changing the team during the competition, that's where I think Bruno will get a starting place. If it's gonna be on Fred or Paqueta spot I don't know.

 

I see we finishing the tournament with something like: Alisson, Danilo, Thiago, Marquinhos and Alex Sandro, Casemiro, Bruno, Paqueta(richarlison), Vini Jr, Neymar and Raphinha I really think that Vini and Paqueta will end up fighting for a starter place.

[madras]

How has Fred been playing for the National team ?

[ponsaelius]

It's surely a system thing too. Brazil play a clearly defined 4-2-3-1 with two deeper midfielders and a #10.

 

Joelinton has been playing as a box to box in a 4-3-3 which is very different. I'm not sure how he'd do as a defined and disciplined holding midfielder and he's clearly not good enough to be the #10. Obviously he adds flexibility to a squad by being able to play wide too but Brazil have loads of options there so it's not needed.

 

I think a combination of their current system and the fact he's never had a call up before made it a certainty he wouldn't make it.

[Kanj]

I’ll never understand international managers use of hierarchy when clearly some players are really really bad right now and are not performing. How does that suddenly change at an international tourney?

[madras]

Just now, Kanji said:

I’ll never understand international managers use of hierarchy when clearly some players are really really bad right now and are not performing. How does that suddenly change at an international tourney?

Maybe it's trust in players for you. See Pickford. Went through a bad spell for Everton while playing good for England.

[Mountain]

25 minutes ago, madras said:

How has Fred been playing for the National team ?

 

Bizarre isn't it, I assume he does some things off the ball that manager's like or maybe it's just the Man Utd factor.

[JNK]

2 hours ago, madras said:

How has Fred been playing for the National team ?

Way better than in United, but he's clearly limited.

He helps a lot on the solid defense we have (it was his entrance replacing arthur that made our mid start to really work, him, Paquetá and Raphinha).

 

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by JNK

[Flip]

4 hours ago, Kanji said:

I’ll never understand international managers use of hierarchy when clearly some players are really really bad right now and are not performing. How does that suddenly change at an international tourney?

You have almost no time creating/implementing a system before a World Cup, even less so in this one. Players that have been part of the squad for longer understands the tactical system better. Say what you want about Brazil, but they play like a club side where the best player doesn’t always start.
 

Fred is the only really limited player In the starting eleven, and while I do feel like he should be benched, I can understand Tite. Fred has done really well at times alongside Casemiro, and unlike at Manchester he isn’t required to do anything offensively other than makings runs.

[TRon]

4 hours ago, Mountain said:

 

Bizarre isn't it, I assume he does some things off the ball that manager's like or maybe it's just the Man Utd factor.

 

Maybe he actually does a good job for Brazil. International football is different from the Premier League, it's usually played at a slower pace with more emphasis on possesion and less physical tussles in the midfield. Maybe Fred is considered a bit more reliable in keeping possession than Joelinton. Joe is perfect for the Premier because physicality plays a big part.

[BennyBlanco]

21 hours ago, Dokko said:

Fucking Fred, ffs. Hope Brazil dive out. 

Checked out his and Joelintons stats this year. Joe is absolutely leagues ahead in terms of tackling, passing, assists, goals etc. 

[Flip]

16 minutes ago, BennyBlanco said:

Checked out his and Joelintons stats this year. Joe is absolutely leagues ahead in terms of tackling, passing, assists, goals etc. 

Is that right though? Fred has played far less than Joelinton this season. Don’t think you can compare them unless it’s per 90 minutes. Either way, none of this matters for the national side. Hopefully Joelinton keeps improving and maybe one days gets a call-up. As for this World Cup, absolutely right call to leave him out. 

[BennyBlanco]

1 hour ago, Flip said:

Is that right though? Fred has played far less than Joelinton this season. Don’t think you can compare them unless it’s per 90 minutes. Either way, none of this matters for the national side. Hopefully Joelinton keeps improving and maybe one days gets a call-up. As for this World Cup, absolutely right call to leave him out. 

Oh he’s played three times as many games. Which in itself is another to pick him. Fred can’t even get into a very poor Man United midfield!

[Joey47]

17 hours ago, Flip said:

Is that right though? Fred has played far less than Joelinton this season. Don’t think you can compare them unless it’s per 90 minutes. Either way, none of this matters for the national side. Hopefully Joelinton keeps improving and maybe one days gets a call-up. As for this World Cup, absolutely right call to leave him out. 

 

Disagree with this. Although the system and players knowledge of this system is a factor, players form and general ability should definitely matter.

 

It's why a lot of people think Maddison should be starting for england, while Southgate is unlikely to even take him in the squad. 

 

Anyway, I agree that for Joelinton his form probably came a bit too late. Also as others have said, we don't really know if he fits in to a system that plays 2 holding midfielders as he has never played that role before. I personally think he could be a beast sitting next to a classic defensive midfielder like Casemiro.