Allan Saint-Maximin (now playing for Fenerbahce, on loan from Al-Ahli)

[TheBrownBottle]

3 hours ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Given what Howe's said since his appointment regarding ASM, his place in the team in 2021-22 when he started 31 matches, this season when we slightly tweaked how we played (mid March when ASM, Isak, Murphy displaced the usual front 3 of Almiron, Wilson and Joelinton) and his affection for the club, area and fans I don't think he would be off tbh. But out of the players in the squad we have, he's probably the only one that would garner a sizeable fee that could help with FFP and that we wouldn't miss too much, as seen last season with his injuries. As there is no chance we could entertain selling any of Bruno, Isak or Botman right now.

 

But I do feel as someone who really likes ASM that there's been a mixture of revisionism about him and a refusal to give him credit on top of a perpetuation of things such as him not tracking back, working hard enough etc from some. He is what he is, he'll frustrate. If he didn't frustrate more than not he likely wouldn't have signed for us in summer 2019. But he's hella entertaining and capable of things few if any in the squad have been in his time here. I'll miss him a lot; he's the type of player you love watching and are more than happy to pay your money to go and see just like you thought with Ginola. G+A don't matter with that regard as has been pointed out. 

 

But onwards we go, we'll get better players who will hopefully he capable of what ASM could do when he's on it and then some.

Yeah, all good points well made.  I actually thought ASM was clearly working to change his game - there were times when you could see he was trying to play ‘Howe-ball’.  But it was also clear that it wasn’t a natural fit.

 

As others have said, he’s a bit of a throwback player - the type who PFM types used to talk about ‘carrying’.  The game has changed and in some ways left behind old-school wing wizards.  Output and metrics are the order of the day - so it does kill off a bit of the romance that these players imbue.

 

That said, I do also think that ASM is a player better suited to lesser sides - such as Bruce’s NUFC.  He was at NUFC for a reason, and wasn’t courted by top clubs for a reason.  I saw one of the Chronicle hacks blathering on about asking Staveley two years ago about whether they’d be building a side around ASM, as if that was a good question at all (it wasn’t Staveley’s call, for a start).  Good / great sides aren’t built around one skilful dribbler.  Some of the thinking around ASM has me a bit perplexed tbh.  Regardless, I fully agree with your final sentence.   

[Erikse]

8 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

There is liking a player, there is not wanting him to leave, and then there is suggesting that there is an injustice to him not fulfilling his destiny of playing CL football for NUFC.  First two make perfect sense to me - the latter, not a bit of it.  He’s not being dragged from the club kicking and screaming after having the thing he’d worked so hard to achieve snatched away from him.  He’s off to earn stupendous money in a league where his output won’t be criticised.  Sounds like a dream ticket to me. 

 

Maybe I phrased it to look that way, but I don't necessarily think it's injustice and that we owe him anything. I think it was the right thing to let him go now. Maybe he even wanted it himself. I just think it's a bit of a shame how it all panned out in the end with him.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Erikse

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Rich said:

All fair game these days IMO, people can post streams for all I care. Fuck the police.

Giving off ‘I’m a cool dad’ vibes

[Hanshithispantz]

Regarding Maxi's off the ball workrate, he literally sits on the floor and moans to the ref multiple times per game after being tackled, it's very likely the coaching staff have told him ad nauseum to pack that in so it's fair to assume he's just not taking things full on board like. I love Maxi and I cannot be the only one who used to watch it happen just wishing he would get the fuck up as he's essentially just working himself out of the first XI 

 

He definitely tracks back, but it's just hard to imagine him being a player someone like Howe would enjoy coaching.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Hanshithispantz

[TheBrownBottle]

1 hour ago, Erikse said:

 

Maybe I phrased it to look that way, but I don't necessarily think it's injustice and that we owe him anything. I think it was the right thing to let him go now. Maybe he even wanted it himself. I just think it's a bit of a shame how it all panned out in the end with him.

 

 

 

Yeah, fair enough mate - makes sense  

[hakka]

18 hours ago, NobbySolano said:

 

Its the same on your end. Season before that he only started 17. and Only 23 his first season. Which one is the outlier?

 

The way some posters talk about ASM is as if we are selling Shearer. I have nothing against ASM, and he is fine. But it is the ASM fan boys that actually make me want to sell him - maybe they will follow him to his new team. 

I am convinced if you put together a Venn diagram of ASM fans, Gordon haters, Miggy downers, and Barnes doubters. You'd end up with a perfect circle. 

 

 

Tbf, this is fair rebuttal in bold. I have admitted in other posts the argument of his starts, injuries and fitness is a concern I share. 

 

I disagree with the rest of your post - I've already said on here I'm OK with ASM being sold if it leads to strengthening the squad, and it's looking like it's doing exactly that with multiple signings appearing to progress. I am a fan of Harvey Barnes, he clearly is going to provide end product and less injuries, and that's only going to make us stronger and better next season. With ASM there is a romance with how he plays, he gets you out of your seat with his runs and he can hurt any opposition. Is he best fit for Howe's system? probably not, but I don't buy in to the fact last season his injuries were specifically due to Howe's system. As you've pointed out, he's struggled most seasons anyway.

 

I'm keen for us to have a dangerous squad of quality players. Barnes clearly brings that, but with so many games next season to play I felt having ASM off the bench in games we are struggling to break through (or have to counter as we are under the kosh) or starting in some of the games against poorer opposition then he would bring some high value in those moments. That said, I'm seeing more and more how sacrificing him for resale value because of his flaws is a more and more looking like a necessity. 

 

Also I am a fan of Gordon, Miggy and Barnes. 

[Guest reefatoon]

2 hours ago, Hanshithispantz said:

Regarding Maxi's off the ball workrate, he literally sits on the floor and moans to the ref multiple times per game after being tackled, it's very likely the coaching staff have told him ad nauseum to pack that in so it's fair to assume he's just not taking things full on board like. I love Maxi and I cannot be the only one who used to watch it happen just wishing he would get the fuck up as he's essentially just working himself out of the first XI 

 

He definitely tracks back, but it's just hard to imagine him being a player someone like Howe would enjoy coaching.

 

 

 

That’s the part of his game that really frustrated. Every time he was tackled he would do it.

[Hanshithispantz]

15 minutes ago, reefatoon said:

That’s the part of his game that really frustrated. Every time he was tackled he would do it.

It's the opposite of what you need in a counter pressing side like, it was mental 

[LV]

I thought he’d been doing less of that this year. 

[Cookie1892]

i will miss him coming on in games looking like an extra from 'The Mummy Returns'

[joeyt]

 

 

 

[RobS]

1 minute ago, joeyt said:

 

 

 

This sums it up for me. Sad to see Maxi go, but Barnes is a clear upgrade in end result, and I’d rather my team won than get to watch maxi’s tricks sadly. 

[The College Dropout]

2 minutes ago, joeyt said:

 

 

 

This is lazy journalism. ASM is a far more creative player than Barnes. He created far more chances than Barnes does. Barnes is far better in end product in terms of goals. But the final pass? Easily ASM.  

 

 

 

[Nobody]

Gordon had some quite exciting moments against Rangers early on in the second half, hopefully he can develop that side of his game and become a bit of an ASM replacement, because I really feel like we'll miss that side of ASMs game now that he's gone. We're really lackning that sort of X factor with ASM gone. 

[Cookie1892]

3 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

This is lazy journalism. ASM is a far more creative player than Barnes. He created far more chances than Barnes does. Barnes is far better in end product in terms of goals. But the final pass? Easily ASM.  

 

 

 

 you need help with your eyesight

 

you have also massively contradicted yourself - end product and final pass are the same thing and Maxis shocking with both in general

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Cookie1892

[RobS]

4 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

This is lazy journalism. ASM is a far more creative player than Barnes. He created far more chances than Barnes does. Barnes is far better in end product in terms of goals. But the final pass? Easily ASM.  

 

 

 

Barnes 2.7 XA vs ASM 3.6 XA is not massive, but their xg is 2.1 to 7.8 - he creates slightly less but smashes in goals, he’s ultimately a better footballer ?

[PauloGeordio]

We could be lifting the Champions league trophy and this debate will still be ongoing. He gone yet? 
 

summed up in the Athletics latest article:

 

“While Saint-Maximin will be remembered for his trickery and adventurous style of play — along with a sometimes disappointing end product and rather lacklustre defensive efforts — Barnes’ style is more straightforward: one-twos and goals”

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by PauloGeordio

[54]

9 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

This is lazy journalism. ASM is a far more creative player than Barnes. He created far more chances than Barnes does. Barnes is far better in end product in terms of goals. But the final pass? Easily ASM.  

 

 

 

It depends on what you class as creativity to be honest, here are the stats for the past four seasons in the Premier League for both expected goal and expected assists:

 

Expected Assists

Barnes = 13.9

ASM = 15.9

 

Expected Goals

Barnes = 28.9

ASM = 12.7

 

So while ASM is slightly ahead on assists its actually kind of negligible, but the net gain in terms of goals is hugely superior for Barnes. Obviously this is just pure output, and doesn't show the amount of work that ASM does in terms of progressive carries etc, but it is a good indication that Barnes is at least on par with ASM in terms of creativity.

[Guest reefatoon]

They are completely different types of players, so all this comparing is a little pointless.

 

Howe feels Barnes and his style will work better in his team/plans and how he wants to set up and play.

 

I’m sure Howe was a fan of ASM too, but he’s went for someone that he feels will do the job for him. Football is ruthless and managers have to make these decisions if they feel it will benefit the team.

 

Good luck ASM, go and enjoy your football and go show your stuff.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by reefatoon

[The College Dropout]

3 minutes ago, RobS said:

Barnes 2.7 XA vs ASM 3.6 XA is not massive, but their xg is 2.1 to 7.8 - he creates slightly less but smashes in goals, he’s ultimately a better footballer ?

You have to watch football with your eyes and use stats in context. ASM progressive passes, expected assists, shot creating actions, passes into the penalty area, key passes per 90 mins are as good as you’re going to find. ASM is a dream for people attacking the box, he’s a chance creating force. The tweet is last journalism based on stereotypes.  
 

Barnes is damn near an elite finisher and gets to his spots.  Far more end product in terms of goals that can’t be contested.  But providing chances for team mates? That’s a weakness in his game and far inferior to ASM in that regard. 

[Gallowgate Toon]

ASM wasn't the most fun to watch in the squad, for me. He was unpredictably predictable, if that makes sense  Isak and Bruno I find the most enjoyable for different reasons. Trippier, Joelinton and Willock have regular outstanding moments as well.

[PauloGeordio]

 

[The College Dropout]

9 minutes ago, 54 said:

It depends on what you class as creativity to be honest, here are the stats for the past four seasons in the Premier League for both expected goal and expected assists:

 

Expected Assists

Barnes = 13.9

ASM = 15.9

 

Expected Goals

Barnes = 28.9

ASM = 12.7

 

So while ASM is slightly ahead on assists it’s actually kind of negligible, but the net gain in terms of goals is hugely superior for Barnes. Obviously this is just pure output, and doesn't show the amount of work that ASM does in terms of progressive carries etc, but it is a good indication that Barnes is at least on par with ASM in terms of creativity.

It’s better to look at stats for the last 2 seasons and per 90 minutes. Because ASM has missed a lot of games last season and until Howe came, had been playing in one of the least attacking teams in the league. Barnes has always played in a strong attacking team. 
 

When Barnes comes, I expect it’s going to become clear that the creativity gap between him and ASM is not ‘negligible’. But I’m hoping he continues his excellent finishing and in a better team he could even get to Mo Salah type numbers of goals. 

[Hanshithispantz]

Barnes is never going to have a game like Maxi against Walker, or like when he single handedly ran the entire Everton team ragged, but you would imagine our chance creation as a group will improve when Howe has players better suited to what we're trying to do. Tonali helps that massively as well, as will Gordon.

[RobS]

19 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

You have to watch football with your eyes and use stats in context. ASM progressive passes, expected assists, shot creating actions, passes into the penalty area, key passes per 90 mins are as good as you’re going to find. ASM is a dream for people attacking the box, he’s a chance creating force. The tweet is last journalism based on stereotypes.  
 

Barnes is damn near an elite finisher and gets to his spots.  Far more end product in terms of goals that can’t be contested.  But providing chances for team mates? That’s a weakness in his game and far inferior to ASM in that regard. 

You say that, and when Maxi was at his best and fit he was a joy to watch. But it lasted 4-6 weeks if you were lucky before he cba or got injured and was missing for months again. And he was also insanely frustrating, how many times did he try a trick or try and beat a man only to give the ball away, or not make the obvious pass?

 

He’s a very gifted player, but he is flawed and that’s the reason he’s played for us for years and is now going to Saudi. Barnes is a upgrade, fitter, more reliable and will score a ton of goals and assist quite a lot, will you not cheer when he scores all the time?