The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[Rompe]

50 minutes ago, OpenC said:

 

You seem to have mistaken me for a diplomat dude; I'm just a miner's son from Northumberland

 

You can be opposed to both the takeover and the government deals with Saudi-Arabia was my point.

[RUHRLYASLEEVESUP]

4 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Nah you should FO with this post tbh. It’s extremely childish and pathetic.
 

This thread is totally fine,  and healthy.  Don’t care, don’t post in it. Ridiculous

Told again 

[OpenC]

8 minutes ago, Rompe said:

 

You can be opposed to both the takeover and the government deals with Saudi-Arabia was my point.

 

I know what your point was. Mine is that you can equally well feel that further than voting as you deem appropriate when the opportunity arises, there's fuck all you can do about it and you're not obliged to spend your life wrapped up in moral dilemmas as a result of being fortunate enough to be living through the 21st century. I haven't really got anything else to say  

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by OpenC

[Smal]

I would respectfully challenge the narrative that fans don't get a say in who their owners are. I think it's a shaky argument at best and at worst I think it's possible you may be lying to yourself about your true feelings. 

 

Yes it has taken a long time to get rid, but why do you think Mike Ashley has sold the club? Were it not for fan pressure he would have a cushy number owning this football club for a number of years to come. Could we have stopped this takeover if we wanted to? Absolutely. The truth is that most fans aren't bothered and just want the money and to be rid of Mike Ashley. That's fair enough, but fans could have stopped this takeover if they wanted. If anything it's only happening because the fans were so desperate for it.  

 

 

[RUHRLYASLEEVESUP]

1 minute ago, ManDoon said:

Nah man, you just come across as a total bell end. 

don’t let it trouble you man, spoil your weekend, I may well a bellend as you elude to, I may not be but it shouldn’t bother you so much pal 

[Armchair Pundit]

Not really sure about this thread, I'm not sure what purpose it holds.

[Chicane]

I'm glad Ashley is gone, that's the biggest thing for me

 

Other than that, I guess I'm kinda just focusing on the positive aspects of the ownership like Amanda Staveley and I guess the Reubens? Idk much about them.

 

So basically turning a blind eye a bit, which is terrible, but that's just where I'm at right now. My feelings about the whole thing have varied so much already who tf knows how I'll feel down the line

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Chicane

[Unlucky Luque]

The main source of my joy is Ashely gone. Being the richest club in the world will be a fun ride, for sure, but I've been doing loads of mental gymnastics to make this work for me. We have to be honest and put the whataboutism to the side: we are owned by a government and leadership with an atrocious human rights record. Sportwashing is a genuine, disgusting practice and people celebrating with SA flags and t-shirts need to take a look at themselves and what they are promoting.

 

But the takeover itself is not the fault of the fans. I wish I had the integrity to walk away forever, but these past 14 years (with a few exceptions) has just left me a miserable husk of a fan. I fucking love football, but care only for Newcastle United, so I just want some joy and identity back. I will support the team, shy myself away from the ownership, but I will probably never be a proud Newcastle fan with this ownership, like I was pre-Ashley.

 

The money aspect I don't care about. This is what football has become, and seeing the cheek from some other fans who suggest otherwise is amazing. The seethe is just spectacular.

 

Edit: Reading more about Mohammed Bin Salman though, it does seem he's looking to reform their take on Islam and move the country in a new idealogical direction, but I have no idea how true this is.

[Big Geordie]

II’ve made my piece with it. My joy was that Ashley has gone - would be the same with whoever bought our club. I won’t be returning to St James, outside of work but I will enjoy having hope restored. 
 

the Saudis are a despotic regime but the PL sold its soul to the devil, long before they rocked up and that’s without forgetting how much business this country does with them. 

[RUHRLYASLEEVESUP]

3 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

It won’t 

K

[Stottie]

Mike Ashley sold the club to them, the fans had no say in the matter. Just as the fans had no say in Sports Direct Arena, Wonga, and Dennis Wise.

 

If the UK Government and the Royal Family are happy to deal with Saudi Arabia, I don't see why a football club should be singled out for doing so. Ideally the club would be run by local people, but that would make us the extreme exception, not the rule. No other remotely competitive club has local owners. The UK Government was elected by the British people, so any appeasement from it toward any foreign power could potentially be stopped by the electorate, people currently claiming the high ground and attacking NUFC fans in spite of delivering Johnson, Truss etc. to power.

 

For all the talk of sportswashing, is that what happens with the other stuff PIF owns, racehorses, the McClaren F1 team etc.? Do they operate as blatant representatives and not as sporting entities? Have F1 fans, horseracing fans, etc. been asked to boycott too?

[Rompe]

3 minutes ago, OpenC said:

 

I know what your point was. Mine is that you can equally well accept that further than voting as you feel is appropriate when the opportunity arises, there's fuck all you can do about it and you're not obliged to spend your life wrapped up in moral dilemmas as a result of being fortunate enough to be living through the 21st century. I haven't really got anything else to say  

 

That's fine. I've just been seeing a lot of "well the government does business with them" and "if the PL is fine with it then it's ok with me", which I think is just lazy.

 

In the end though you are right, there isn't a lot we as fans can do about it anyway.

[RS]

The world is a horrible place. It pretty much always has been since “civilisation”

 

There’ll always be an agenda. The club is now being used to stoke the fires of a certain political agenda. Why?  Because football is more passionate and personal than formula1, Disney et al. 
 

I think it’s grossly unfair to challenge a football teams support on human rights issues when the focus should be on the world’s political leaders to take action. 
 

Let me enjoy my club properly again for the first time in 14 years. 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by RS

[Skeletor]

I'm not uncomfortable with the structure. 10% Stavely and 10% Reubens with PIF providing all the money. Where I get uncomfortable is with fans producing pro-Saudi Newcastle/Mag content. It's not necessary and it's cringey and disgusting. Likewise any fans walking around with towels on their heads or photoshopping images of camels into things. We can enjoy being the richest club in the world (football's long been fucked and moralless) but there is no recourse to embrace Saudi Arabia.

[geordiesteve710]

11 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

I don’t know if anyone caught it but the guy from LGBT group that works with the club spoke well about it on SSN. He also said that their Twitter account had seen an increase in homophobic abuse when the takeover started. “You’ll get stoned at half time” etc etc. These are things we will have to deal with, shutting down the discussion is pointless 

 

Fwiw I've hears that United with Pride are now taking lots of shit from other LGBTQ+ fans groups behind the scenes.

 

Which makes me feel quite sad as I'm sure they need support if anything right now.

[Skeletor]

4 minutes ago, geordiesteve710 said:

 

Fwiw I've hears that United with Pride are now taking lots of shit from other LGBTQ+ fans groups behind the scenes.

 

Which makes me feel quite sad as I'm sure they need support if anything right now.

 

I am uncomfortable as a gay man with Saudi Arabia in general (not just owning part of my club). However I also believe the way to influence change is by building rapport and leading by example rather than telling the other side "you're awful, you're bigots, you're on the wrong side of history, I can't wait until you all die out" etc...

[Thumbheed]

Was happy to contribute to this thread as the premise is sensible, but having read some of the replies, I'm inclined to agree with another poster and say maybe move it to chat because I really want to enjoy the positivity around the club for the first time in 14 years. 

[Newcastle Fan]

i live in Bahrain and often visit Saudi for work (it's just a half hour drive from where i live) as well as spend at least one month a year in Newcastle, i really think the fact is there has been years of biased British media outlets such as the Guardian and others painting Saudi (and a lot of the other countries in this region) in a certain way that put a wrong idea in people's minds, i see that regularly when they report on  events in Bahrain and my wife (who's Newcastle born and raised) gets calls from her parents asking if she's ok and there's absolutely nothing going on, after visiting a few times they also realized that reality is quite different from what is being reported but i assume its quite easy for someone living so far away from it to see it in a different way.

 

independent internet researchers won't find many people with positive things to say about the region, but those living here are overwhelmingly happy and positive about things, you will always find people speaking in opposition of any country, but the reality is quite the opposite of what is being reported and people here can see that there are many exciting things to look forward to in the future, the Saudi's are incredibly proud people and proud of MBS and what he is trying to do for them,  you will even see that for yourselves now, with more and more of them wanting to support both the city of Newcastle and it's club, a lot of them were sharing our fans celebration and are happy that at least one city in the UK isn't trying to paint them as oil rich Arabs with medieval mentality (which couldn't be further from the truth) and i really things that this is a wonderful opportunity to build bridges as people and understand each other away from the media and political agendas.

 

Saudi is not a perfect country by any means, but where can you really find a perfect country or even business? the UK actively participated in a completely wrong and unnecessary  war in Iraq that has caused and is still causing death and suffering to millions, and some of the worst human rights conditions in recent history and not one person was really held accountable,  not even for the unnecessary death's of UK soldiers who shouldn't have been there to begin with.

 

But putting politics a side, i think fans and people associated with the city should absolutely feel happy that they have owners who genuinely want to invest in the future of both the club and the city, i also found it really nice that you've got a consortium made of Muslim, Jewish and Christian (assuming Amanda is one), owners is taking the club,  as well as the fact that her husband is Iranian working with the Saudis, which you don't see often,  the message about this being a long term project and the amount of good it will bring to area that has long been neglected should mean everyone should get behind this,  i also thing that these will never be a "perfect scenario" for getting taking over unless the fans themselves managed to find that amount of money and bought the club, but even that could turn into a disaster, so lets get behind all of our new owners and support the team with passion and pride, and lets hope the best years in the history of both the club and the city are coming, we need to be united in our support as everyone else will through everything they have at us.

 

 

[LiquidAK]

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little conflicted.

 

I suppose what it comes down to for me is that we have no say in this, we can't pick the owners. The owners are who they are, regardless of what any one of us thinks about it. 

 

I'm really, really happy that the club I love is going to get some investment and allowed to grow. I'm buzzing about it. I'm also not going to start hero-worshiping what is a pretty grim regime in SA - the Saudi flags stuff,  pictures of MBS etc. is not a good look for the fanbase at all.

So far the ownership is saying all the right things - the club will continue to back important social causes, invest in the local community, invest in the women's game etc. I'll be judging them on their actions, and whether these promises are kept. If they are, I'll be absolutely delighted, and unashamedly so.

 

I just have to accept that this is another one of those hypocrisies that we all live with in modern life - no different to my purchasing an iPhone made in China. I've made my peace with it - you can continue to call out abhorrent behaviours and practices while admitting that to live in the modern world it's almost unavoidable not to be a bit of a hypocrite with it.

[Armchair Pundit]

What does or doesn't go on in Saudi Arabia isn't a topic for football, this thread should be with the other political guff in the chat section.

[Yorkie]

Us being in any way forgiving or prepared to turn a blind eye to the source of the funds which have released us from Ashley, is just another symptom of the Ashley era itself imo.

 

How you manage the conflict depends on how you - perfectly justifiably and validly - prioritise or balance your thoughts, interests and passions. 

 

As a person you want to be principled and sensitive and morally right, and to think and feel the right things; as a fan you want to indulge in the hope and optimism that comes with being free from Ashley; it's a really difficult situation to square in your head. It's not really fair that fans are forced to carry such baggage because of the system that enables these scenarios to come to be. 

 

Football fans just want to support their team and to be persecuted for doing so seems very harsh. I think they should be allowed to regardless of who their owners are. As others have said, which ever way you land, the important thing is to be as aware as you can of the issues, and not succumb to the devilment of sportswashing. Like selling T-shirts emblazoned with 'Saudi Mags'. 

 

It's a really important discussion which will inevitably go on and on, and I believe the vast majority of the fanbase will carry themselves with the dignity and the smarts required to get us through the debate and all the criticism. 

[Wullie]

5 minutes ago, Armchair Pundit said:

What does or doesn't go on in Saudi Arabia isn't a topic for football, this thread should be with the other political guff in the chat section.

 

Think we'll keep a thread about the owners of the football club in the football section if it's alright with you. If it's not then don't come in it.

[Hhtoon]

I feel that if you've always actively opposed SA and what PIF has previously invested in, then I absolutely understand your genuine discomfort. 

 

I think there's a lot of outrage from people that had never previously given it a 2nd thought, and some people who are putting an anti face on now as it "feels the right thing to do" to make them feel better.

 

Personally, the fact that the UK trade with SA and PIF have invested far more in to other mainstream companies without uproar is a legitimate argument in defence. By that, I mean if you were opposed to those before then that's fine, if you weren't then I find it a little hypocritical.

[Newcastle Fan]

Just now, ManDoon said:

This feels very propagandist. It’s not biased reporting to factually tell them truth abort what is happening over there. That’s great that they are proud.

 

This is verifiably true:

 

”Saudi Arabia operates an uncodified criminal code based on Sharia law. Under this framework, sex outside marriage is illegal. As same-sex marriage is not permitted, same-sex intimacy is criminalised. The punishment varies depending on the circumstances: married men and interfaith sex are punished with the death penalty, while non-married men are punished with flogging. Sharia law principles underpinning the criminal law in Saudi Arabia also impose strict dress codes that impact on the gender expression of transgender people.”

 

Just because you enjoy it over there doesn’t make it good.

 

 

 

 

The problem is that you will see anything positive about Saudi as Propaganda, Saudi's themselves defending their own country on twitter are being accused of being state sponsored accounts, and borderline racism against Saudi's/Arab culture seems to be looked at as progressive thinking, i repeat again that both Saudi/the region/and the world in general has a long way to go, a few years ago they were in a much worse place but they are progressing fast and MBS has a huge role to play for that,   they aren't going to turn into a country that shares all your ideals and morals overnight, maybe never, but even within your own community you will have people with widely different opinions to you, the message here is that we as people can use this bridge to better connect and understand each other, they want to do good for this club and region.

[Hhtoon]

1 minute ago, ManDoon said:

I reckon a fair percentage of people on here voted Corbyn, and iirc he wanted to end arms sales to SA. 

 

In which case, if that was a policy that people felt strongly about then I'd feel very aggrieved if I were them.