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The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread


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3 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

 

I'm not saying we agree to disagree, just that a complete lack of understanding that other people will have a different position on certain subjects is not always helpful

 

You've had to resort to an absolutely absurd example to highlight your point 

 

Have I? I think defending (often) extrajudicial state-sanctioned murder is no less absurd.

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3 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

 

I'm not saying we agree to disagree, just that a complete lack of understanding that other people will have a different position on certain subjects is not always helpful

 

You've had to resort to an absolutely absurd example to highlight your point 

 

 

Killing people as punishment for crimes isn't an absurd example in itself?

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3 minutes ago, Wullie said:

 

 

Have I? I think defending (often) extrajudicial state-sanctioned murder is no less absurd.

I disagree but this wasn't even the original point I was making 

 

I'm not here to defend capital punishment (more because the miscarriage of justice element), just that in principal I can see why others would be for it

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I don't care where you're from, Capital Punishment is not the answer regardless if it's beheading, injection, chair or hanging, etc. 

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3 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

 

Killing people as punishment for crimes isn't an absurd example in itself?

This conversation is going down a completely different angle to what I had intended but since it's been raised aye I do think sex with children is worse than capital punishment 

 

Again, I'm not in favour of capital punishment, just that I can understand why countries/people would in principle be for it. 

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1 minute ago, OCK said:

I don't care where you're from, Capital Punishment is not the answer regardless if it's beheading, injection, chair or hanging, etc. 

 

Well you could make a case for it, all that money saved on looking after murderers for the rest of their lives could be put to better use.

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58 minutes ago, UncleBingo said:

This is always worth a watch on this subject....

 

 

 

Fucking hell, Pritti Patel is such an anhorrent piece of shit, isn't she?

 

Just absolute human garbage.

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1 minute ago, Chris_R said:

 

Fucking hell, Pritti Patel is such an anhorrent piece of shit, isn't she?

 

Just absolute human garbage.

A pretty good argument in itself as to why capital punishment is grim.

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4 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

Well you could make a case for it, all that money saved on looking after murderers for the rest of their lives could be put to better use.

It would be a pretty shit case to make though.

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12 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

This conversation is going down a completely different angle to what I had intended but since it's been raised aye I do think sex with children is worse than capital punishment 

 

Again, I'm not in favour of capital punishment, just that I can understand why countries/people would in principle be for it. 

 

 

It's still an absurd example in the first place, which is what I was getting at, not really whether it's more or less absurd.

 

I can understand why people would be for it, I know people who are for it.

 

Unfortunately the reason I understand why these people are for it is because they either don't know or don't care about its history, its deliberate misuse, or its ineffectiveness. They just want what they view as justice and pay no mind to the morality of it, let alone the innocent people who'll be executed along the way.

 

 

Edited by Kid Icarus

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1 minute ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

This conversation is going down a completely different angle to what I had intended but since it's been raised aye I do think sex with children is worse than capital punishment 

 

Again, I'm not in favour of capital punishment, just that I can understand why countries/people would in principle be for it. 

You're completely right about respecting different views when it comes to Capital Punishment. According to this article, 33 countries have used the death penalty since 2013 so we're not talking about only a few countries. It's really a question of whether the onus of a justice system is on rehabilitation or punishment. All legal systems contain elements of both, it's just a question of to what degree either way. 

 

Broadly speaking, based on the map in the article it's clear that most countries who retain capital punishment are either Asian or Islamic countries who have different philosophies to a lot of other countries. There's nothing wrong with respecting their views whilst strongly disagreeing with them at the same time.

 

It's also worth noting that there is significant support for the death penalty in the UK so it's not as clear cut as many on here are making it out to be. 

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11 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

 

It's still an absurd example in the first place, which is what I was getting at, not really whether it's more or less absurd.

 

I can understand why people would be for it, I know people who are for it.

 

Unfortunately the reason I understand why these people are for it is because they either don't know or don't care about its history, its deliberate misuse, or its ineffectiveness. They just want what they view as justice and pay no mind to the morality of it, let alone the innocent people who'll be executed along the way.

 

 

 

 

Capital punishment was the discussion, not the example

 

I used gambling as the example and then someone ludicrously brought in sex with children

 

Anyhow, I completely agree with the second line onwards, it was essentially my point from the start. You understand their point, then hopefully educate them on why it's not logical or sensible. 

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12 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

 

It's still an absurd example in the first place, which is what I was getting at, not really whether it's more or less absurd.

 

I can understand why people would be for it, I know people who are for it.

 

Unfortunately the reason I understand why these people are for it is because they either don't know or don't care about its history, its deliberate misuse, or its ineffectiveness. They just want what they view as justice and pay no mind to the morality of it, let alone the innocent people who'll be executed along the way.

 

 

 

 

I swear I just seen what you quoted and then read your reply thinking it was in relation to sex with minors.

 

Then I read your last sentence, jesus I need to go back to bed. Really fucking threw me how openly you were talking about it[emoji38]

 

t3qkhrohrh321.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

 

Capital punishment was the discussion, not the example

 

I used gambling as the example and then someone ludicrously brought in sex with children

 

Anyhow, I completely agree with the second line onwards, it was essentially my point from the start. You understand their point, then hopefully educate them on why it's not logical or sensible. 

 

I think the point Wullie was making is that people will argue for absurd things, but that doesn't mean we should listen to them or take their points seriously.

 

Understanding them is a different matter so I think what you're saying is fair enough.

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1 hour ago, Kanji said:


well you hopefully have a Justice system that protects mental disability defendants from death sentence. Wrongful convictions have been part and parcel of court systems across the globe from the beginning of time, sadly. 


You would hope, but they don’t. Of course wrongful convocations are normal, that’s why you shouldn’t kill the people. 

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21 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

 

It's still an absurd example in the first place, which is what I was getting at, not really whether it's more or less absurd.

 

I can understand why people would be for it, I know people who are for it.

 

Unfortunately the reason I understand why these people are for it is because they either don't know or don't care about its history, its deliberate misuse, or its ineffectiveness. They just want what they view as justice and pay no mind to the morality of it, let alone the innocent people who'll be executed along the way.

 

 

 

 

The only part of that which personally gives me any pause is the morality of it. The history is past, innocent people will definitely have died due to faulty evidence, being stitched up and just the general clamour for vengeance in times gone by. But the faulty evidence and innocent victims would be fixed by DNA matching, and just making sure the proof of the crime is irrefutable which is a lot more achievable these days.

 

But what I guess is the real sticking point is the morality of dishing out death as a punishment at all. That I can identify with, it does feel wrong. But is it much different to when we justify going to war and dropping bombs somewhere?

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Just now, TRon said:

 

The only part of that which personally gives me any pause is the morality of it. The history is past, innocent people will definitely have died due to faulty evidence, being stitched up and just the general clamour for vengeance in times gone by. But the faulty evidence and innocent victims would be fixed by DNA matching, and just making sure the proof of the crime is irrefutable which is a lot more achievable these days.

 

But what I guess is the real sticking point is the morality of dishing out death as a punishment at all. That I can identify with, it does feel wrong. But is it much different to when we justify going to war and dropping bombs somewhere?

DNA matching isn't infallible.

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1 hour ago, TRon said:

 

Revenge is a powerful reason though. If you were the parents of a child killed by the Moors murders, I could understand them wanting their killers hanged or whatever method they use. They would be thinking my girl or boy isn't going to get the chance for mercy, why should Ian Brady or Myra Hindley have it? Also have to consider that keeping prisoners in jail for life costs money, and we all pay for it.


Revenge of course is powerful. But it shouldn’t be nurtured and it shouldn’t be a principle that’s part of the design for the justice system. 
 

Look at the beneficial outcomes that can come from stuff like restorative justice. Getting revenge on people doesn’t really help anyone, including the families of victims. 

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Just now, madras said:

DNA matching isn't infallible.

 

No but it's considered strong enough as a form of proof to convict people of crimes. I suppose then you would have to use it matched to other evidence to come to a conclusion when it comes to dealing out capital punishment where proof would have to be watertight.

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