madras Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 While we're on about punishments etc let me throw into the mix things like personality disorders,effects of frontal lobe trauma, psychological traumas etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Kanji said: well you hopefully have a Justice system that protects mental disability defendants from death sentence. Wrongful convictions have been part and parcel of court systems across the globe from the beginning of time, sadly. You would hope, but they don’t. Of course wrongful convocations are normal, that’s why you shouldn’t kill the people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 21 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said: It's still an absurd example in the first place, which is what I was getting at, not really whether it's more or less absurd. I can understand why people would be for it, I know people who are for it. Unfortunately the reason I understand why these people are for it is because they either don't know or don't care about its history, its deliberate misuse, or its ineffectiveness. They just want what they view as justice and pay no mind to the morality of it, let alone the innocent people who'll be executed along the way. The only part of that which personally gives me any pause is the morality of it. The history is past, innocent people will definitely have died due to faulty evidence, being stitched up and just the general clamour for vengeance in times gone by. But the faulty evidence and innocent victims would be fixed by DNA matching, and just making sure the proof of the crime is irrefutable which is a lot more achievable these days. But what I guess is the real sticking point is the morality of dishing out death as a punishment at all. That I can identify with, it does feel wrong. But is it much different to when we justify going to war and dropping bombs somewhere? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Just now, TRon said: The only part of that which personally gives me any pause is the morality of it. The history is past, innocent people will definitely have died due to faulty evidence, being stitched up and just the general clamour for vengeance in times gone by. But the faulty evidence and innocent victims would be fixed by DNA matching, and just making sure the proof of the crime is irrefutable which is a lot more achievable these days. But what I guess is the real sticking point is the morality of dishing out death as a punishment at all. That I can identify with, it does feel wrong. But is it much different to when we justify going to war and dropping bombs somewhere? DNA matching isn't infallible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 hour ago, TRon said: Revenge is a powerful reason though. If you were the parents of a child killed by the Moors murders, I could understand them wanting their killers hanged or whatever method they use. They would be thinking my girl or boy isn't going to get the chance for mercy, why should Ian Brady or Myra Hindley have it? Also have to consider that keeping prisoners in jail for life costs money, and we all pay for it. Revenge of course is powerful. But it shouldn’t be nurtured and it shouldn’t be a principle that’s part of the design for the justice system. Look at the beneficial outcomes that can come from stuff like restorative justice. Getting revenge on people doesn’t really help anyone, including the families of victims. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Just now, madras said: DNA matching isn't infallible. No but it's considered strong enough as a form of proof to convict people of crimes. I suppose then you would have to use it matched to other evidence to come to a conclusion when it comes to dealing out capital punishment where proof would have to be watertight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Anyway, this is the ownership thread I guess, should probably move on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miercoles Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 29 minutes ago, TRon said: just making sure the proof of the crime is irrefutable which is a lot more achievable these days. That's... incredibly optimistic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 30 minutes ago, TRon said: No but it's considered strong enough as a form of proof to convict people of crimes. I suppose then you would have to use it matched to other evidence to come to a conclusion when it comes to dealing out capital punishment where proof would have to be watertight. Police can and do plant or tamper with evidence. I would say instead of imagining being a moors murder victims parent, imagine being innocent and your life hanging in the balance of whether the police can be trusted to be both competent and uncorrupt. Edited March 17, 2022 by Kid Icarus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macphisto Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 33 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said: You would hope, but they don’t. Of course wrongful convocations are normal, that’s why you shouldn’t kill the people. Sorry to keep this going but on the subject of miscarriages of justice. Anyone read the latest court case with Chris Mullen, former Sunderland MP? Interesting situation as he was the one who got the Birmingham 6 pub bombings convictions overturned when every one thought it was clear as day that they carried out the bombings. All this time later and the Midlands police have taken him to court to get him to name the true perpetrators who confessed to carrying out the bombings. He's claiming the journalistic right to keep sources confidential. Difficult one to answer but I'd probably veer towards keeping the sources confidential. Without that in place then others may not come forward in future cases and could also be extended to other situations where people are forced to reveal their sources. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Can’t believe no one has posted the Hang the Peodo’s lads yet. Standards are slipping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 20 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said: Police can and do plant or tamper with evidence. I would say instead of imagining being a moors murder victims parent, imagine being innocent and your life hanging in the balance of whether the police can be trusted to be both competent and uncorrupt. Very valid point tbf, I wouldn't put my trust 100% in the courts or the police, at the end of the day they are just people like you and me, and they all have their own takes on what's right and wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shays Given Tim Flowers Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 57 minutes ago, TRon said: No but it's considered strong enough as a form of proof to convict people of crimes. I suppose then you would have to use it matched to other evidence to come to a conclusion when it comes to dealing out capital punishment where proof would have to be watertight. So you have a system that relies not just on proving an act but also the intent. Proving somebody's mental state can be very tricky particularly when they are saying, yes I killed but it was manslaughter not murder. Couple that with a system that is reliant on human interpretation and you're a good way short of watertight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCK Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 hour ago, JonBez comesock said: Who likes crisps ? PIF DON'T - Newspapers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) Whilst I'm fully against capital punishment, there is an argument in some places that the risk of escape from custody is so great that the only way to protect the public is through the death penalty. I'm thinking somewhere such as Iraq, where thousands of dangerous prisoners have escaped. Not that this is any great justification, just making the point that whilst our prisons are secure, that can't be said for everywhere in the world. Although I don't think it applies to many places obviously Edited March 17, 2022 by Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinho lad Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 14 hours ago, Kid Icarus said: I'm well aware of what 'my' country is like, its history, its imperialism and am completely opposed to all of it. If I was criticising SA while excusing the UK, your posts would have a point, but as I'm not, they don't. My with commas now, is it? Few pages ago you were condemning a person's opinion using meanings of superiority in your language, that's associated with your culture and country. But now that it's about Britain's savagery, you distance yourself from it with a 'my'. Ok, fella. It doesn't matter if Kid Icarus condemns Britain's past or not, because Kid Icarus displayed a typical 'we're better than you' language - even though the same 'here' (where it's 'unacceptable') is GB - a country(s) that fucked up millions of lives.' Get lost, Kid Icarus, people from around the world hold Britain's savage past and present in the front of their mind - be careful before you tell them how great you are! 'Here' is great to live if you're a minority, yes, but the existence of a tolerant and prosperous society here will always be linked to Britain's past. Why the hell would we separate them? If you've condemned your country's past, at least be gracious in acknowledging GB's hideous past before you attack someone with your superiority language. (REMEMBER: a lot of people from around the world see the UK differently from the narrative that's shoved down our throat here. Remember!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Broon Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 hour ago, TRon said: The only part of that which personally gives me any pause is the morality of it. The history is past, innocent people will definitely have died due to faulty evidence, being stitched up and just the general clamour for vengeance in times gone by. But the faulty evidence and innocent victims would be fixed by DNA matching, and just making sure the proof of the crime is irrefutable which is a lot more achievable these days. But what I guess is the real sticking point is the morality of dishing out death as a punishment at all. That I can identify with, it does feel wrong. But is it much different to when we justify going to war and dropping bombs somewhere? Someone who hasn't watched Making a Murderer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 48 minutes ago, Shays Given Tim Flowers said: So you have a system that relies not just on proving an act but also the intent. Proving somebody's mental state can be very tricky particularly when they are saying, yes I killed but it was manslaughter not murder. Couple that with a system that is reliant on human interpretation and you're a good way short of watertight. This is the same for any crime, there is always a chance that with human error/bias a miscarriage could take place. But the world doesn't stop still, you have to prosecute criminals based on reasonable evidence, you can't just let everyone off under the premise it's not 100% foolproof evidence. So then we would come to the more serious crimes which carry the most severe sentences. I would imagine you would need rock solid evidence if you are going to execute someone, or even put them away for life. How do they address these questions in the US? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 25 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said: Someone who hasn't watched Making a Murderer. Nope. Can't watch everything fella, you'd never have time for anything else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macphisto Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) The ultimate litmus test of being against the death penalty would be the killers of Lee Rigby where you can be certain of their guilt. I am against the death penalty but I wouldn't be in the least bit concerned if they were sentenced to death. Edited March 17, 2022 by macphisto Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 An innocent man twice, and his nephew… Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGoneKid Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 You should never give the state the power to execute people Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macphisto Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, HTT II said: An innocent man twice, and his nephew… Are you referring to Making A Murderer? Only reason I ask is that John Grisham wrote Innocent Man about a guy wrongly convicted and sent to death row. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Just now, macphisto said: Are you referring to Making A Murderer? Aye! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Broon Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, TRon said: Nope. Can't watch everything fella, you'd never have time for anything else. I'd recommend it, it's fascinating and terrifying, it would change your mind on the reliability of the justice system. Particularly in the US, but I imagine we have the same issues here with police deciding someone is guilty because it's convenient and twisting, or completely fabricating, the evidence to fit rather than actually trying to find the real perpetrator. Edited March 17, 2022 by Jackie Broon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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