Sven Botman: targeting January return (Howe)

[et tu brute]

19 minutes ago, Toonjam88 said:

As new owners why would you give the guy who was constantly negative about your takeover any inside information? 

They won't.

[relámpago blanco]

@Milanista Its a long standing question but have you ever seen a Sunderland fan in Milan?  They all wear their home kit all of the time so you would know.

[madras]

12 minutes ago, relámpago blanco said:

@Milanista Its a long standing question but have you ever seen a Sunderland fan in Milan?  They all wear their home kit all of the time so you would know.

Would he know what a Sunderland kit looks like though ? Do you know, off the top of your head what Ascoli's strip is ?

[PauloGeordio]

1 hour ago, JonBez comesock said:

Luke Edwards makes zero sense 

[Dancing Brave]

56 minutes ago, Toonjam88 said:

As new owners why would you give the guy who was constantly negative about your takeover any inside information? 

He's just guessing, again.

He's a terrible journalist. 

[duo]

1 hour ago, Toonjam88 said:

As new owners why would you give the guy who was constantly negative about your takeover any inside information? 

Clearly they don't. 

[80]

5 hours ago, Milanista said:

Greetings, I'm a Milan fan who has been browsing your forum and thought I would offer some thoughts about Milan, Botman, and the finances involved. I've always had a soft spot for Newcastle, particularly in the late 90's and early 2000's, always liked Shearer (obviously), Solano, Lualua, Gary Speed (rest in peace), and I always liked Robert when I watched him play--and True Geordie seems like a nice guy. I'm sure, like any fan base, I may have talked about players/personalities that aren't remembered as fondly as you all, but, the point is: I come in peace.

 

I made the account because there was a lot of discussion over how good Milan is. Yes, we've had tremendous upheaval from 2012-2019, but I wanted to actually respond to @Hanshithispantz and his points, in particular. He talked about us finishing "dead last" in our CL group or that we are "nowhere near winning the Champions League outside of a freak year" or talking about our finances. He (and others) did so with an authority and inaccuracy that annoyed me, so I figured I'd offer some fun facts about Milan and Serie A, so you can have a more nuanced view of Milan, as a club, and also why Botman (and other young stars) are so interested in this "reboot" of Milan.

 

The reason we finished last in our group was a combination of (crippling, half-the-squad level) injuries, shocking ref decisions (the refs were suspended after our game by UEFA), and inexperience. Mostly the first two. We should have finished second in our group, easily, in fact, the penalty that was awarded against us with Atletico (which was widely condemned) if it had just been VAR reviewed properly (and not awarded) all other things staying the same, we would have finished second. Our injury crisis meant that in many of our games we were playing with youth players and third choice players, or others in completely alien positions, like a 5th choice CM as our LW or our 3rd choice RB as a LB.

 

We had an injury crisis and refs had some shocking decisions against us in the league. Otherwise, we would have won the league, with ease. We still won it. We have the best LB in the world in Theo Hernandez (top 3, at least), one of the best keepers in the world, a great English CB (no idea why Southgate doesn't play him) in Tomori, and other incredible talents (like Rafa Leao, Sandro Tonali, Kalulu, and many others). They are renewing with us and have turned down City, PSG, Real, etc because Maldini sells players onto rebuilding Milan into what it once was, and he has done this with young players. Two years ago we were the youngest team in any of the top 5 leagues, while this year, we were the youngest team in the CL from the top 5 leagues, even with Ibrahimovic and Giroud being factored in.

 

In short: this team is young, hungry, and very motivated/united. In Italy, young players are not relied upon as much, with the typical thinking they cannot be relied upon. Milan under Maldini and Pioli (our manager) has went against that, making players buy-in, play them, stand by them when they have a bad season (or two), and they have grown, especially with Ibrahimovic's (and Kjaer's) leadership augmenting Maldini and Pioli. Opposing Serie A fans and pundits have tried to excuse themselves from missing out on this team's growth (which was obvious [we were 2nd last year]) by pretending this is some sort of "miracle." It isn't. This team has been built deliberately, and its growth is rapid.

 

Milan's goal is to win the CL. People did not think this team would ever challenge for the domestic title, and while they (management, players, etc) do not speak openly about wanting to win the CL, it is the obvious goal of the club, for the growth strategy of the new owners, and of Maldini, who went to 8 CL finals during his career. The CL is Milan's identity (we're annoying, kinda like Liverpool fans about it) and the key to its marketing future. So acting like Milan is similar to Juventus, Inter, or others, it just isn't true. Milan cares much more about the European stage than for domestic titles. Milan's next goal is to win the CL. People laughed at us wanting to win the league, and it seems clear that the CL is this team's next goal. Thus, acting like Botman (should he join Milan) is going to Germany to play for 2nd (max) in a good, big, but non-Bayern team, is missing the point. Dismiss Milan at your peril.

 

This is where the financial elements come in. Milan do not own their own stadium (we rent San Siro with Inter from the government, which seriously hampers both of our revenue). A joint new stadium has given way to Milan building a stadium on its own, which should be starting soon--Italian governmental red tape has met American ruthlessness pitting different municipalities in the Milan area against each other--and this stadium will turbo charge Milan's already insane growth. Milan has been bought, where 70% has been valued between 1.2 and 1.8 billion Euros, without a stadium, that's quite a lot. The new ownership is led by a man (Cardinale) who is an expert in the world of sports, where he used to lead Goldman Sachs's department, where he led the Yankees and Cowboys media and stadium projects, leading them to make billions.

 

To make a long story short: with Milan he has a sleeping giant that has been mismanaged for over a decade by previous owners. Our current owners and executives described what they inherited as "stone age." They have quickly modernized, and still have room to grow. Milan has seen triple-and-double digit growth in various marketing metrics, revenue, and brand recognition per year. Milan is, well, a huge club with a lot of room to grow because previous owners were... stupid and inept. The financial power of Milan has yet to be realized, and it will be in between 3-5 years that you will see a Milan with the sort of financial weight to rival EPL sides, including your beloved (and lovable) Newcastle, even with your owners.

 

Whether the EPL is the strongest league in the world or not, I think you guys overrate your league a little bit; yes, I think it is the strongest league right now, but not by some huge margin. Yes, Serie A is at its weakest point in decades, but Milan's growth has taken the league by surprise and its play-style is brash, fast, and on the cutting edge with its use of data and analytics. I think EPL fans tend to overstate the pull of the EPL, because Serie A is not Ligue 1. Serie A is on the rise and its American owners (who own 8-10 clubs already) are pushing that growth, as Italy has allowed its infrastructure to decay, while still producing superb tactics, players, and managers--the point is: you can make a lot of money by doing the most basic fixes.

 

Now, as far as transfer business goes: Milan under Maldini do not overpay. They don't get into auctions. They offer a price, and then they walk away if the other club doesn't agree once they hit a certain number. This frustrates many fans of Milan, but it suits me just fine. Botman will not be the source of an auction between Milan and Newcastle, or anyone else. Milan will simply move on to their next target, and Bremer (among others) are quite tempting. To answer @GeordieDazzler's question about our current CB partnership: Milan actually has a very strong CB pairing, that might make the urgency to sign Botman lower, as Kalulu, who had never played a professional match before joining us, was the revelation of this season after Kjaer (Danish NT captain) was injured (ACL) and was crucial in our defense, and our captain (Romagnoli) is leaving. Do we need a CB? Yes. But do we need a Botman level player? I'm not so sure we need him, in particular, but we do need a CB. Milan fans are split on Botman, much like you all are. I suspect we (all--Newcastle and Milan fans) will praise him if he comes to us and disregard him and call him overrated if he doesn't. Jaap Stam talked openly about Botman's talent, that has to count for something. Maldini hinted that he might not fancy Botman, though, that could be a negotiating tactic.

 

The other financial advantage that Serie A has (which has flown under-the-radar among fans and sports journalists) is the new tax regime in Italy, which Milan has taken full advantage of. Basically, you pay half as much in taxes in Italy if you move there and live there for two years (at least), which is supposed to entice rich people to move back to Italy. Whether this absurd trickle-down economic theory works is up for debate, but, it is of huge benefit to Milan and Serie A, where they are able to match salaries of other clubs in other leagues while paying significantly less to offer the same after-tax salary to players. Similar tax laws in Spain (the "Beckham" law) allowed La Liga teams to not fall behind the EPL post 2006's Italian Scandal which displaced Serie A as the best league.

 

My theory is that Milan can match Newcastle's wage offer, but they are leveraging Botman's desire to join this Milan project to undercut Lille's position. It seems Newcastle is offering around 40m (Euros) and Milan 30m. There are also rumors that Elliott, who technically still own Milan (the closing to new owners will end in September) are also involved with Lille--which is the theory as to why we have done so much business with Lille. Lille's board is currently in turmoil and there seems to be sharp fissures between board members, which is possibly why Botman's transfer is so protracted. Milan are also interested in Renato Sanches from Lille, but he's in the last year of his contract, giving Lille significantly less leverage--that deal has not been completed yet, which seems to lend credence to the rumors over board conflict.

 

Also, in the Italian press, salaries are reported after tax, rather than before tax, like in England. Just so you know since I see many of you are looking at Italian news.

 

I must dissent from my fellow Milan fan, Di Marzio and SkyItalia are not very accurate with Milan anymore. He (Di Marzio) used to be, but with the change in ownership four years ago, his inside sources seems to have dried up. The most reliable source for Milan news is Antonio Vitiello (@AntoVitiello on Twitter) as he seems to be the mouth-piece for Milan's management. Another good source is Daniele Longo (@86_longo on Twitter) who breaks news first, but seems to report things that may be merely ideas or locker room rumors, but he seems to have an inside loop.

 

I realize this was very long, but, I figured I'd pretend to be James Horncastle and offer you a long read if you were so inclined. If I have offended any of you, please accept my apologies, and good luck to you this season! Cheers.

 

Very thoughtful posts, thanks.

 

Some of the posts people are making on here, about how Botman must not really want to be here, or will arrive feeling bad about missing out on Milan though... I can only think people were psychologically crippled by the Ashley era.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by 80

[Yorkie]

Really interesting posts, @Milanista

 

I find the sneering view towards other leagues from fans/manufacturers of the Premier League really depressing. Particularly from a Newcastle fan, cos why the fuck would you care if the PL is the mightiest around? Cos it's got fuck all to do with anything NUFC has contributed to the institution over the last 15 years. 

 

As a football fan, I'm more than okay with someone like Botman seeing Milan as a more attractive destination than a mid-table PL club. But as an NUFC fan, I hope we somehow manage to convince him, obviously. And I'm not saying we're an unattractive choice; far from it. Just that the world is right if the Serie A champions are the better option. 

 

Anyway, Serie A is a cultural giant of the game with a shit-ton of great teams, great players and great history (and probably the best kit collection). Chuffed that Juventus are having a shitter these days, enabling clubs like Milan to reassert themselves. 

 

Wasn't aware of the details of the resurgence under Maldini et al, but it's interesting to hear about. The odd time I saw Milan this year I thought they looked really good and was especially impressed with Leao. Plus, Ibrahimovic, for all his tediousness off the pitch, is an incredible feat of footballing engineering on it, to still be that good at that age.

 

I did catch that mad game where they lost 2-1 at home to Spezia, though. 

[madras]

It's not sneering, it's economics. Right now it's (Premier league) the most watched and the biggest earner and the rest have some catching up to do. I reckon the Euro league will come before other leagues overtake the Prem.

[Yorkie]

Well Menace's post was definitely sneering. The Serie A champions would maybe challenge the top 6, with all its basketcases, ffs.

 

And a lot of the "best league in the world" chatter from Sky and the likes definitely has a bit of unjust arrogance to it. Aye it's the richest and the most watched, but that doesn't equal best. It's in danger of becoming an increasingly less interesting league, tbh.

 

That's not to mention the 'farmers league' jibes you hear from the everyman (probably not towards Serie A but elsewhere, it doesn't matter where). Like some of the most formidable clubs weren't, until the last few decades, spread around all over the continent. 

[madras]

10 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

Well Menace's post was definitely sneering. The Serie A champions would maybe challenge the top 6, with all its basketcases, ffs.

 

And a lot of the "best league in the world" chatter from Sky and the likes definitely has a bit of unjust arrogance to it. Aye it's the richest and the most watched, but that doesn't equal best. It's in danger of becoming an increasingly less interesting league, tbh.

 

That's not to mention the 'farmers league' jibes you hear from the everyman (probably not towards Serie A but elsewhere, it doesn't matter where). Like some of the most formidable clubs weren't, until the last few decades, spread around all over the continent. 

Fair enough, didn't see Menaces post, however you'd have to say La Liga is the biggest challenger to the Premier?

[Hanshithispantz]

It is proper depressing seeing fans of other clubs writing thoughtful, respectful posts only to have people on here telling them they're talking "waffle" like 

 

I doubt there's any football fan born in the 90s or before who doesn't love AC Milan tbh, they're a mythical team. The Serie A has fallen massively behind the Premier League in recent years though, but hopefully the rebirth of the clubs in Milan is a sign things are on the rise. The Champions League is much better with them competing (Roma and Juve too). 

 

 

[Guest HTT II]

Serie A from what I’ve seen this season is far more entertaining and more competitive than the PL which is only considered the best because it’s the most viewed and has all the money, I personally find the PL dull as fuck!

[Nucasol]

12 minutes ago, Hanshithispantz said:

It is proper depressing seeing fans of other clubs writing thoughtful, respectful posts only to have people on here telling them they're talking "waffle" like 

 

I doubt there's any football fan born in the 90s or before who doesn't love AC Milan tbh, they're a mythical team. The Serie A has fallen massively behind the Premier League in recent years though, but hopefully the rebirth of the clubs in Milan is a sign things are on the rise. The Champions League is much better with them competing (Roma and Juve too). 

 

 

Absolute shit Little Englander mentalities.

[GeordieDazzler]

I still read and hear a lot of people talk about how good the defences are in Serie A which seems to be a hangover from the past. I think it’s been the highest scoring league in the big five for some time now. 
 

Some very entertaining sides Sassoulo, Atalanta etc. 

[Gawalls]

10 hours ago, The Prophet said:

He's presented both sides of the reporting, then said nothings imminent. Well given the player is on international duty that's not really a major suprise is it?

 

Almost as bad as Chris Waugh's pearl of wisdom this morning.

Chronicles the worst - genuinely just read an article they’ve wrote called “go on miggy” - it’s about Newcastle supporters saying go on miggy when he scored in international game.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Gawalls

[Nucasol]

5 minutes ago, Gawalls said:

Chronicles the worst - genuinely just read an article they’ve wrote called “go on miggy” - it’s about Newcastle supporters saying go on miggy when he scored in international game.

 

 

 

The Chronicle just needs a complete revamp. No Ryder, no click bait headlines, no ‘5 things’.

[Guest]

Chronicle is awful. Barely anything is their own now anymore. it’s all ‘reports say this’ and ‘according to that’. 

[Rich]

@Milanistamaking a Papiss-like start to his career here. Quality posts.

 

There's no way I'd grumble if Botman went to Milan ahead of us, but I don't think he will.

[James]

2 hours ago, Optimistic Nut said:

Chronicle is awful. Barely anything is their own now anymore. it’s all ‘reports say this’ and ‘according to that’. 

Alan Oliver makes the current bunch look like amateurs

[Guest]

He had his contacts. 

[Coffee_Johnny]

12 minutes ago, Optimistic Nut said:

He had his contacts. 

He was just a good old fashioned (not in a bad way…) sports journalist. He stands in my memory as a reassuring, and trusted voice from the past. Like an ITK uncle, who was actually ITK. 

[madras]

1 minute ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

He was just a good old fashioned (not in a bad way…) sports journalist. He stands in my memory as a reassuring, and trusted voice from the past. Like an ITK uncle, who was actually ITK. 

And John Gibson before him who you'd regularly see out socialising with the players.

[Guest HTT II]

John Gibson was a very good journo, writer and a sound spokesperson, Anal can go and fuck himself though. 

[madras]

19 minutes ago, HTT II said:

John Gibson was a very good journo, writer and a sound spokesperson, Anal can go and fuck himself though. 

Family history has it John Gibson took me home when I got lost from my dad at my first league game. (Coventry,opening game 74/75. 7yrs old, dad stood middle of the Gallowgate and I needed the toilet "off you go then son", game ended, told a copper the situation, ended up in the old press box for PA announcement but the game had ended and my dad was wandering round town looking for me and building up the courage to ring home).