Yorkie Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 5 minutes ago, joeyt said: what in the Prem has been so bad that you want all these convuluted playoff systems all of a sudden There's nothing remotely convoluted about it, like. It's exactly the same as the Football League play-offs where four becomes one for the purposes of increasing competition/ adding more hope/jeopardy/drama. Would anyone argue that the Football League play-offs are a bad thing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 I think you could easily argue that the team who gets the most points over 40 games should get promoted. That's fairer, although worse entertainment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Yorkie said: There's nothing remotely convoluted about it, like. It's exactly the same as the Football League play-offs where four becomes one for the purposes of increasing competition/ adding more hope/jeopardy/drama. Would anyone argue that the Football League play-offs are a bad thing? But like Stan says, for the relegation playoff are you saying the side who loses their semi finals then gets to the final and then the loser gets relegated? That's really going to attract the fans You've had a shit season? Here's two more games where you can buy tickets for and if you lose them both you'll be relegated! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinesstan Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 31 minutes ago, Doctor Zaius said: I dont know. The same teams qualifying for Europe/CL. City to win 5 out of the last 6 titles. Same teams coming up and going down. Obviously, financial parity is the biggest factor, but I cant help feel the current league format entrenches the position of teams. I think deciding which club goes into the world's most lucrative competition, based upon one game which could easily be decided by a bad VAR deision, would further entrench their positions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 1 minute ago, joeyt said: But like Stan says, for the relegation playoff are you saying the side who loses their semi finals then gets to the final and then the loser gets relegated? That's it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Bundesliga have it, I just think it kinda goes against the principle that the 3 worst teams go down, instead it's 2 worst and 1 of the remaining worst. How would you feel battling to 15th position or whatever and then have a few key injuries and relegated as those cripple you for last games. For promotion it stops the same 3 ones coming up everytime with parachute payments so there is at least that reason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinesstan Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, joeyt said: But like Stan says, for the relegation playoff are you saying the side who loses their semi finals then gets to the final and then the loser gets relegated? That's really going to attract the fans You've had a shit season? Here's two more games where you can buy tickets for and if you lose them both you'll be relegated! I was actually praising the idea. Clubs get two chances to save their PL status, is another way of looking at it. If it involved lubs from the championship it would be wholly unfair, of course. Edited September 14, 2022 by Happinesstan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sima Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 23 minutes ago, joeyt said: what in the Prem has been so bad that you want all these convuluted playoff systems all of a sudden I may be biased to the idea to give us a shortcut into the Champions League outside of our expected "growth curve" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinesstan Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Just now, Sima said: I may be biased to the idea to give us a shortcut into the Champions League outside of our expected "growth curve" Do you think we'd get the VAR decisions in the playoff? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sima Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Happinesstan said: Do you think we'd get the VAR decisions in the playoff? Fuck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 44 minutes ago, Doctor Zaius said: I dont know. The same teams qualifying for Europe/CL. City to win 5 out of the last 6 titles. Same teams coming up and going down. Obviously, financial parity is the biggest factor, but I cant help feel the current league format entrenches the position of teams. Aye, but that has nothing to do with the format and everything to do with money and power. Changing the format of the league isn't going to be any kind of equaliser. Imo this how these things end up making it into conversations within punditry, because talking about fiddling with league formats and bringing in whacky rules is a way to avoid talking about the obvious inequality in the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaydnNUFC Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 (edited) The format is not broken, why are people trying to fix it? Some of the suggestions have been pure AIDS. Edited September 14, 2022 by HaydnNUFC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abacus Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 17 minutes ago, Yorkie said: There's nothing remotely convoluted about it, like. It's exactly the same as the Football League play-offs where four becomes one for the purposes of increasing competition/ adding more hope/jeopardy/drama. Would anyone argue that the Football League play-offs are a bad thing? Not a bad idea as a hypothetical. My issue with it would be that often, the relegation scrap is more interesting than the battle for the top 4 etc, and I feel this would take away from that drama. Going in to the last game of the season with two or three teams in the mix to go down in the sudden death of the last relegation spot is one of the most exciting ends to a season. However, knowing that they still had a chance of staying up due to there being a play off still to go would take away from that. Of course, I suppose you could argue that similar drama would apply to the battle between 18th and 19th instead. But I don't like to think about that, since I fear change. NB, in it's favour this kind of system would have given Ashley the terrors by meaning he couldn't just aim for 17th every year. Also, instead of going to Wembley in the final, this play-off of "who is the crappiest" should have it's shame confirmed by being at the Stadium of Light, to mark it as a true festival of rubbish. FA Cup style, they could call this journey "The Road to Sunderland". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Just now, HaydnNUFC said: The format not broken, why are people trying to fix it? Some of the suggestions have been pure AIDS. I'm the only one making suggestions so I guess I'll take that feedback. I'm not out waving placards about introducing a relegation play-off system (in truth, a European play-off would be the preferable place to introduce such a thing); it's just intended as a thought exercise around how certain alterations might benefit competition. I don't think "the format isn't broken" is a useful position to hold in this day and age when the nature of the game has changed so drastically over the last thirty years. However I accept @Kid Icarus's point that tinkering with the smaller things probably doesn't address the greater issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinesstan Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Yorkie said: I'm the only one making suggestions so I guess I'll take that feedback. I'm not out waving placards about introducing a relegation play-off system (in truth, a European play-off would be the preferable place to introduce such a thing); it's just intended as a thought exercise around how certain alterations might benefit competition. I don't think "the format isn't broken" is a useful position to hold in this day and age when the nature of the game has changed so drastically over the last thirty years. However I accept @Kid Icarus's point that tinkering with the smaller things probably doesn't address the greater issues. The format isn't broken though. It's not really a position to be taken, it's just important to bear that in mind when we discuss unnecessary changes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaydnNUFC Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, Yorkie said: I'm the only one making suggestions so I guess I'll take that feedback. I'm not out waving placards about introducing a relegation play-off system (in truth, a European play-off would be the preferable place to introduce such a thing); it's just intended as a thought exercise around how certain alterations might benefit competition. I don't think "the format isn't broken" is a useful position to hold in this day and age when the nature of the game has changed so drastically over the last thirty years. However I accept @Kid Icarus's point that tinkering with the smaller things probably doesn't address the greater issues. Changing league format ≠ levelling the playing field. Football ownership, regulation, financial workings of the game won't change by introducing playoff systems in the league for relegation or Europe. The way the game has been run since 1992 has fucked football, not league format. Major reform is needed in regards to the aforementioned points. Relegation playoffs, European place playoffs, all-star games. Ugh. Please, just no. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Play-off somewhere is a decent idea. I think the last European competition spot to keep midtable teams engaged. It could also help because some teams don't want to qualify for Europa League and others would be desperate. So the team that actually wants to compete in it would take those play-offs more seriously. 7, 8, 9, 10. Keeping all top half teams with something to play for and gives teams 11-13 something to strive for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Play-off for relegation is a terrible idea. "The drop" is an exciting part of the league run. And it also limits "surprise relegations" like us. You want something that increases the randomness of results not something that entrenches current patterns. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 4 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: Play-off somewhere is a decent idea. I think the last European competition spot to keep midtable teams engaged. It could also help because some teams don't want to qualify for Europa League and others would be desperate. So the team that actually wants to compete in it would take those play-offs more seriously. 7, 8, 9, 10. Keeping all top half teams with something to play for and gives teams 11-13 something to strive for. Just bring back the Intertoto Cup if teams are that desperate to be in the Europa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 7 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said: Changing league format ≠ levelling the playing field. Football ownership, regulation, financial workings of the game won't change by introducing playoff systems in the league for relegation or Europe. The way the game has been run since 1992 has fucked football, not league format. I agree with all of that, hence my last sentence in the post you quoted; I'm all for the idea of major reform. But in the context of major reform definitely not happening any time soon/ever, if positive additions can be made, then we shouldn't resist just because they don't solve the universal problems. Certainly can't see why any Newcastle fan or fans of any non-ESL team would be against a European play-off. Anything to increase the chances of non-ESL teams upsetting the apple cart is surely a good thing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 40 minutes ago, joeyt said: But like Stan says, for the relegation playoff are you saying the side who loses their semi finals then gets to the final and then the loser gets relegated? That's really going to attract the fans You've had a shit season? Here's two more games where you can buy tickets for and if you lose them both you'll be relegated! It would be absolutely horrendous being in it, but imagine watching Everton last season going down because they bottled their two relegation saving games It's obviously pie in the sky, but for the neutral, it could provide pretty decent entertainment IMO In Sweden, the third placed team in the Championship equivalent play the third worst team in the top division. Pretty decent way of ensuring the 'best' team stays in the league. Could be done so that the sixth placed team in the championship is replaced by the 17th team in the Premier League for the Play offs. Though that leads to more dead rubbers in the championship, which already have an awful lot of them, so probably not the best solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Or we could do away with relegation, have 1st in the Premier League v 20th in the Championship, 2nd v 19th, etc so that you could potentially have the league winners getting relegated and the team who just survived dropping to League 1 could get promoted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Just now, joeyt said: Just bring back the Intertoto Cup if teams are that desperate to be in the Europa That's not for the PL to decide. I meant Conference League. Teams qualifying for Europe and getting knocked out straight away (Burnley and Wolves spring to mind) is bad for the league. A lot of clubs don't want it either, so gives them a get out. Selfishly it benefits us too. I think winning the Conference and Europa comps are good paths to CL qualification and upping our reputation across the world. But finishing 7th is difficult. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 1 minute ago, The College Dropout said: That's not for the PL to decide. I meant Conference League. Teams qualifying for Europe and getting knocked out straight away (Burnley and Wolves spring to mind) is bad for the league. A lot of clubs don't want it either, so gives them a get out. Selfishly it benefits us too. I think winning the Conference and Europa comps are good paths to CL qualification and upping our reputation across the world. But finishing 7th is difficult. Winning the Conference League doesn't get you CL qualification Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaydnNUFC Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 3 minutes ago, Yorkie said: I agree with all of that, hence my last sentence in the post you quoted; I'm all for the idea of major reform. But in the context of major reform definitely not happening any time soon/ever, if positive additions can be made, then we shouldn't resist just because they don't solve the universal problems. Certainly can't see why any Newcastle fan or fans of any non-ESL team would be against a European play-off. Anything to increase the chances of non-ESL teams upsetting the apple cart is surely a good thing? European play off, for what? Champions League? Europa League? Conference League? The latter competition could ostensibly be viewed as that already given 7th achieves it and the winner gets Europa League group stage, especially given the state of some of the teams up to the round of 16 when compared to PL teams. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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