Rod Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 1 minute ago, Away Toon said: I mean I like Nick Pope and support NUFC but I wouldn't start him for England. Just answer me this. Who do you have in goal for the Toon if you had a choice. Pickford or Pope? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, Yorkie said: Italy aren't a good team then? We've literally not won there in either mine or my Dad's lifetime ffs. Doesn’t mean that teams don’t become poor. This is the worst generation of Italian players post-war. Couldn’t qualify for two successive WCs for the first time in their history. I’m sure all those who think Southgate is a good manager will call for him to get the NUFC job when it becomes available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 1 minute ago, TheBrownBottle said: The generation which won the u-17 and u-20 world cups and u-19 euros you mean? The best batch of young players we’ve produced success-wise? Only dafties underrated this pool Considering it's literally only Phil Foden from those teams that now regularly plays for England, no I don't mean them and neither do you. We've been through this before like. Thinking that these players are man-for-man better than the golden generation is still utter lunacy in my view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Just now, Kid Icarus said: Considering it's literally only Phil Foden from those teams that now regularly plays for England, no I don't mean them and neither do you. We've been through this before like. Thinking that these players are man-for-man better than the golden generation is still utter lunacy in my view. We’ll agree to disagree KI Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Just now, TheBrownBottle said: Doesn’t mean that teams don’t become poor. This is the worst generation of Italian players post-war. Couldn’t qualify for two successive WCs for the first time in their history. I’m sure all those who think Southgate is a good manager will call for him to get the NUFC job when it becomes available. So you think Italy are a bad team then. That's fair enough; I don't agree, but fair enough. Personally I think they're absolutely littered with talent and have a manager many were (rightly) fawning over, as he led them to the Euros win. I'm a Southgate fan but wouldn't want him as Newcastle boss. That's pure strawman. The respective jobs could hardly be more different. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he didn't go anywhere near club management whenever his time with England ends, but that's by the by. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfcastle Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) Italy aren't a good team. Has a good international team ever failed to qualify for two world cups in a row? The last decade has been the worst generation of Italian football in a century. Yes we won the Euro's, so did Denmark and Greece (also not good teams) largely thanks to there not being any particularly good teams in it. England should have been favourites tonight by every measure bar a massively inferior history. This is how it is with England though. Hype one way or the other, sometimes in successive games. Heroes when they beat teams they should beat and shit when they lose to teams they should lose to. Edited March 23, 2023 by Wolfcastle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, Yorkie said: So you think Italy are a bad team then. That's fair enough; I don't agree, but fair enough. Personally I think they're absolutely littered with talent and have a manager many were (rightly) fawning over, as he led them to the Euros win. I'm a Southgate fan but wouldn't want him as Newcastle boss. That's pure strawman. The respective jobs could hardly be more different. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he didn't go anywhere near club management whenever his time with England ends, but that's by the by. Italy are, for me, an average international side - but in Italian terms, they’re a bad side. Southgate is a conservative manager, but he’s the FA’s dream. I understand where you’re coming from re the difference between international and club management, but I actually think he’s blown several chances at this point - EURO 2020 in particular (England’s track record for home international tournaments is W-SF-F - home advantage helps). At WCs, they didn’t outstrip their usual performance - losing to the first decent side they play. He isn’t terrible - McClaren was terrible - but his selections are beyond favouritism at this point, and I think he’s a reactive manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) I still think it's mad like. In every other situation, the buck stops with the manager. It's generally accepted that if things are going badly you sack the manager, it's also imo generally accepted that you can't just get great players, chuck them together and expect it to work - any England fan who witnessed 'The Golden Generation' should be very familiar with this - You need a manager with an eye for team cohesion and picking the right players for the system rather than the 'best' players. But for some reason all of that's thrown out the window when it comes to England under Southgate. Southgate apparently has everything to do with England's perceived failures and limitations, but on the other hand all of England's successes have nothing to do with him, could have been achieved by anyone and have happened in spite of him, through luck, and because everyone we've beaten just so happen to be bad, even when they won the Euros, beating Belgium, Spain, and England on the way, or when they beat one of the teams everyone accepts is good. It's incredible. Edited March 23, 2023 by Kid Icarus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Just now, Wolfcastle said: Italy aren't a good team. The last decade has been the worst generation of Italian football in a century. Yes we won the Euro's, so did Denmark and Greece (also not good teams) largely thanks to their not being any particularly good teams in it. England should have been favourites tonight by every measure bar a massively inferior history. This is how it is with England though. Heroes when they beat teams they should beat and shit when they lose to teams they should lose to. Thing is, I'm not saying that, or even lauding the result especially (though I do think it's a great one given the hex and given its importance in the context of the group). I just get pure triggered by the nonsense about easily the best England manager in my lifetime being a 'fraud' etc. To some extent it's an emotional legacy borne out of the times where I truly despised what was Mike Ashley's NUFC, but where Southgate's England provided something to cling onto. I'll always feel fairly grateful and respectful to this generation for really re-energising the support for the national team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said: I still think it's mad like. In every other situation, the buck stops with the manager. It's generally accepted that if things are going badly you sack the manager, it's also imo generally accepted that you can't just buy great players, chuck them together and expect it to work. You need a manager with an eye for team cohesion and picking the right players for the system rather than the 'best' players. But for some reason all of that's thrown out the window when it comes to England. Southgate apparently has everything to do with England's perceived failures and limitations, but on the other hand all of England's successes could been achieved by anyone and have happened despite of him and through luck. It's incredible. I know where you’re coming from - ultimately, international managers are at the mercy of the talent pool they have available. But for me it is about what they achieve above what might be expected - and clearly we disagree about the talent pool available to Southgate - which is why Rehhagel’s achievement in 2004 should be seen as a superb piece of international management, yet I never see him named in discussions re great international managers (etc etc) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 I dunno like, Rehhagel is regularly regarded as one of the best international managers ever for that achievement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaydnNUFC Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) Didn't watch the game tonight as I've probably in the past made it clear about apathy towards international football in the main, but I don't understand the need to immediately jump onto Southgate's back after almost every single England game. I probably was doing so as well in Euro 2020 when he wasn't starting Sancho (which given how he's been for Man Utd recently was 100% totally justified) and played 2 holding mids at Wembley against Scotland yet he reached the final. I've seen England reach under him a WC semi final, Euros final and WC quarter final where we lost to the then world champions in a game in which we were the better side for the vast majority. A pen miss away England were from taking the game to extra time. A semi final, a final, and a quarter final in 3 tournaments. Which England manager since 1966 has achieved better than that? Or since when have England went on a better run in major tournaments than this? England have been awful in tournaments in the main since then especially in living memory: 74, 76, 78, 84, 88, 92, 94, 2000, 2010, 2014, 2016 where England have either not even qualified or been utterly pathetic. Southgate's teams haven't, have often qualified at a canter, yet loads are so keen to jump onto his back. I don't get it really. Edited March 23, 2023 by HaydnNUFC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Southgate's England and their complete inability to beat top international sides even whilst beating them have become kind of meta now, it's a self fulfilling loop. "They've never beaten a good side!" Beats Germany and Italy "They are rubbish, they must be, even England beat them!" And round we go again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Absolute nonsense the criticism he gets IMO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemtizz Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Maximin Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) Personally I find the polarised views towards him really puzzling. He’s done a brilliant job at generating an excellent culture in a likeable team and that’s contributed to far more big tournament success than we’ve had previously in my lifetime. That he could win a group stage match against Italy was never a surprise though. He’s proved time and time again he can win these games. He’s continued to show his limitations in the big tournaments though and that’s why I’d be pretty happy to move on. You can say some of our players are overrated and you might be right, but it’s still one of the best squads in the world on paper. Finishing second in a tournament we practically hosted is hardly anything special. I’ve always said there’s some completely disproportionate criticism of the guy and people seem to have some bizarre ideas of what international football is like and typical standard of its managers. But this win shouldn’t really change anything. Edited March 24, 2023 by St. Maximin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Maximin Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Wullie said: Southgate's England and their complete inability to beat top international sides even whilst beating them have become kind of meta now, it's a self fulfilling loop. "They've never beaten a good side!" Beats Germany and Italy "They are rubbish, they must be, even England beat them!" And round we go again. Tbf there are some weird criticisms aimed at him, but I do still support the general premise that we don’t beat the best teams in tournaments under him and that’s ultimately where he gets judged. He’s beaten no shortage of good sides outside of them (and should still be praised for that). There’s absolutely nothing embarrassing about losing to Croatia, Italy and France by the way. It’s the fact it continues to go that way over time that makes a lot of people disillusioned with him rather than him just proving himself as a fraud (which he definitely isn’t). Find it hard to feel that strongly though when there’s no clear candidate to replace him. Edited March 24, 2023 by St. Maximin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemtizz Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 Messi hit the bar twice from free-kicks (second time Almada scored the rebound) before scoring one in the last couple mins. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 2 hours ago, HaydnNUFC said: Didn't watch the game tonight as I've probably in the past made it clear about apathy towards international football in the main, but I don't understand the need to immediately jump onto Southgate's back after almost every single England game. I probably was doing so as well in Euro 2020 when he wasn't starting Sancho (which given how he's been for Man Utd recently was 100% totally justified) and played 2 holding mids at Wembley against Scotland yet he reached the final. I've seen England reach under him a WC semi final, Euros final and WC quarter final where we lost to the then world champions in a game in which we were the better side for the vast majority. A pen miss away England were from taking the game to extra time. A semi final, a final, and a quarter final in 3 tournaments. Which England manager since 1966 has achieved better than that? Or since when have England went on a better run in major tournaments than this? England have been awful in tournaments in the main since then especially in living memory: 74, 76, 78, 84, 88, 92, 94, 2000, 2010, 2014, 2016 where England have either not even qualified or been utterly pathetic. Southgate's teams haven't, have often qualified at a canter, yet loads are so keen to jump onto his back. I don't get it really. We also need to allow for the sizeable differences in tournaments from the past until now - ‘74 and ‘78 were 16 team WCs; Euro 76 was a four team Euro - it was much trickier to qualify. England weren’t awful at Euro ‘84 - they were in a four team group (again, an eight-team tournament) with Italy, Spain and Belgium. They were ok at the 2010 WC - as per, they lost to the first good side they played. The draw vs the US after a goalkeeping calamity dropped them in there. Euro 00 is always talked about as a disaster, though it was a tricky group (England beat a terrible German side - though apparently England beating poor Germany sides then didn’t count, but Southgate was the man who oversaw a win vs an equally shit Germany at Euro 22). It was also a very average England side - of that side which beat Germany only and Scholes and Beckham have a chance of making the current side. Dennis Wise was on the LW ‘14, ‘16, ‘88, ‘92 and ‘94 were all the worst showings for me - poor sides made to look even worse. They were also low points in terms of football talent - or in the case of ‘92, an absolute doylem as a manager who was playing Tony Daley, Neil Webb, Carlton Palmer and Andy Sinton ahead of Waddle, Beardsley and Wright (also Barnes and Gascogne were injured). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) England were okay at the 2010 World Cup? Howeh, they were absolutely dreadful and you know it. Every match was awful, with that 0-0 draw with Algeria being one of the worst England performances I've ever seen. Euro 2000 was a disaster because despite beating Germany, we lost from winning positions against Portugal and Romania and went out at the group stage. Again the idea that on paper only Beckham and Scholes would get in this side is cloud cuckoo land stuff Seaman, Campbell, Adams, Scholes, Beckham, Owen, Gerrard, Shearer, McManaman, Fowler would all walk into this squad, with the first 5 to 7 having either been initially picked to start, or pushing to start. Edited March 24, 2023 by Kid Icarus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 I find it hard to rate Southgate in comparison with previous managers, because I think overall he has better players to choose from. I think he's reaping the long term benefits of the Premiership, where young players now get better coaching, watch better players, and have to reach a higher standard technically before they reach the first teams of their clubs. I get frustrated when he still picks Kyle Walker and two defensive midfield players, but overall the technical aspect of our team work does look better. The other quality that Southgate has is his ability to shut out criticism and stick with his own judgement, which I think is essential for a national manager. Too many previous England managers have succumbed to pressure and picked the latest favourites amongst supporters and newspapers. And perhaps the pace and nature of the job suits him. Eddie Howe is a far better club manager, but a lot of his methods wouldn't really work in the national job, where the manager has limited time with the players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobsonsWonderland Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 Ok.. Keegan and Daglish both got us to 2nd place in the league two years in a row. One was through wanting to win games in style and entertain, the other was through not losing and finding a way to win. I think Southgate falls into the latter category and will set up defensively and hope that Harry bangs one in. Not my taste in football but it will make you hard to beat and get you results 9 times out of 10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFEE Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 Just seen the handball for the England penalty. Honestly the handball rules are an absolute mess ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 18 minutes ago, LFEE said: Just seen the handball for the England penalty. Honestly the handball rules are an absolute mess ? Huh? You saying it wansn’t a pel? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 Had no idea Pablo Zabaleta is now assistant manager of Albania alongside former Arsenal player Sylvinho and former Boro player Doriva Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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