Yorkie Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 @tgarve so many posts, I don't know which one to quote! It's a shame about the aggression cos there's some fair points raised there. First of all about bitterness. I'm always bitter. No arguments there. But it's bitterness about a competition I've always loved (and feel NUFC have unfinished business with) becoming devalued by structural changes invoked to appease a cabal of clubs. As for Sevilla, at least there was something interesting about their weird hex on the competition. Their continuous wins weren't due to the disproportionate financial strength of their league and the institutional decision to reduce the competition around them. @r0cafella I think my point is that it pretty much already is the Conference League; certainly this season anyway, with the winners just being a PL team who's steamrollered everyone. At least if you removed the CL carrot it would be about the silverware rather than the cashmoney. (I know it won't happen) I just find it really sad. I've harped on about PL clubs monopolising the Europas and this season it's finally happened. Maybe I've got my knickers in a twist over nowt and it'll just be a one-off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 Just now, Yorkie said: @tgarve so many posts, I don't know which one to quote! It's a shame about the aggression cos there's some fair points raised there. First of all about bitterness. I'm always bitter. No arguments there. But it's bitterness about a competition I've always loved (and feel NUFC have unfinished business with) becoming devalued by structural changes invoked to appease a cabal of clubs. As for Sevilla, at least there was something interesting about their weird hex on the competition. Their continuous wins weren't due to the disproportionate financial strength of their league and the institutional decision to reduce the competition around them. @r0cafella I think my point is that it pretty much already is the Conference League; certainly this season anyway, with the winners just being a PL team who's steamrollered everyone. At least if you removed the CL carrot it would be about the silverware rather than the cashmoney. (I know it won't happen) I just find it really sad. I've harped on about PL clubs monopolising the Europas and this season it's finally happened. Maybe I've got my knickers in a twist over nowt and it'll just be a one-off. It won't be one a off, how can these clubs compete? Football is obviously full throated capitalism and as the Premier league has the lion share of money domination becomes inevitable. Don't get me wrong we will have seasons where English clubs are no where especially in the champions league but for the other 2 competitions english clubs will generally be amongst the favourites. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 4 hours ago, tgarve said: This is bullshit this is all about who is in the final and not what it means if it was us you would be loving it i don’t think there’s anything wrong with this Man Utd were 5 mins from going out Very harsh, Yorkie raises plenty of salient points. Not everything has to be seen through a B&W lens. European football has been in a deeply unhealthy state for some time, and even the extension of the Conference League looks likely to be won by half-arsed big English clubs. Yes, we all want to win more trophies - but it’s perfectly reasonable to be concerned re the state of football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
54 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 I think I would rather Spurs win it than Man United, feels like it'd mean 10x more to them than Man United, I think Man United as a whole are mainly thinking about winning it in terms of getting Champions League, whereas I think for Tottenham its mainly about winning something. It'd also be really depressing if Man United have their worst season in nearly 40 years, and they still end up winning a trophy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 I’ll be supporting both Manchester clubs precisely because it’ll mean next to nowt to them versus the alternatives. Fuck Palace and Spurs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 I don't mind Spurs winning it. I think we've overtaken them now. Man Utd though, fuck another £200m spent throwing money at it, along with another Champions League campaign. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groundhog63 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 As far as Europa goes, I've stated already that I didn't think 3rd placed "losers" in the CL group stages should've parachuted into the EL. Ergo that means teams from the top performing leagues (Eng, Spain, Germany, Italy and, at a push France) that finish outside of their CL qualification will always be favourites for EL glory. However, when that means 5th 6th (?) placed because CL qualifications take the very best 4 then you have to take a long hard look at the depth of those leagues. There were still some decent teams in the EL at the start. You also have to consider these teams ability to play in both domestic and Europe competitions effectively. Look how we struggled. I think the Spurs v Man U thing is an anomaly. Need to see how it goes. I think the bigger issue, for UEFA, is Chelsea pissing the Conference with their 2nd team. Desperately bad look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fak Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 The Europa was a trophy that was beneath Man Utd not exactly a lifetime ago and now they're absolutely desperate to win it. For that reason I hope they bomb in the final. Hopefully there'll be severe consequences on & off the pitch if they have zero European football next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duo Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 1 hour ago, Newcastle Fan said: That Manchester United vs Tottenham final is a crime against football to be honest. Either one gets CL is a bigger crime - currently 15th and 16th respectively Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingxlnc Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 I'd prefer Spurs to win as they might hold on to Ange longer. Secondly Man U need to suffer some bloody hit for all their mismanagement, both sporting and financial. At this rate, each of the last three seasons progressively worse League wise could result in a trophy each season. Meanwhile we win after 70 years and it's our best season. Ridiculously jammy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 59 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said: Very harsh, Yorkie raises plenty of salient points. Not everything has to be seen through a B&W lens. European football has been in a deeply unhealthy state for some time, and even the extension of the Conference League looks likely to be won by half-arsed big English clubs. Yes, we all want to win more trophies - but it’s perfectly reasonable to be concerned re the state of football. Tgarve is right though. Nobody cared when it was Frankfurt or Sevilla getting a spot in the Champions League via the Europa. It's only an issue now because of who the finalists are. I do find it funny that some people think the 5th place finishers in the league have a right to be in the Champions League, yet the Europa League champions somehow aren't worthy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
54 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 1 minute ago, Froggy said: Tgarve is right though. Nobody cared when it was Frankfurt or Sevilla getting a spot in the Champions League via the Europa. It's only an issue now because of who the finalists are. I do find it funny that some people think the 5th place finishers in the league have a right to be in the Champions League, yet the Europa League champions somehow aren't worthy. I think the issue people are having is more to do with the overall feel and structure of world football at the moment, and how this, rightly or wrongly, has the feel of an ever increasing trend of football being for the few elite clubs and not for everyone as a whole Mainly based on the fact that this final has come off the back of a structural changes to the competitions, that was made to appease the Super League clubs which just so happened to include both Man United and Spurs. Especially when you add in the financial disparity between leagues being so vast, the Premier League has such a financial advantage to the rest of Europe, the fact that Man United can have such a tragic season, finishing potentially 17th, but still have more than enough to beat the 4th best side in Spain over two legs, should quite frankly be cause for alarm. 14 of the top richest 30 clubs in the world are from England, with Brighton having a bigger revenue than Roma and Napoli, thats not a good thing, and is tantamount to wealth hording. It's also very disingenuous to compare Frankfurt and Sevilla's situation to the same as Man Uniteds, Man United and Spurs have a revenue of £770m and £615m respectively, whereas Frankfurt and Sevilla's is £245m and £199m, and I think the thing most people are annoyed about, and I could be completely wrong here, so please correct me if i'm wrong, is that the trophy means something to Sevilla and Frankfurt, Man United fans won't really remember it in 5 years time for the most part, and it feels like its being treated by the club as just a mechanism to get into the Champions League not for the trophy itself, in a way that almost discredits the competition they're actually trying to win. I do agree with you about the Champions League thing though, I think its fair enough that if you win the second tier system, you get to compete in the main on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 1 minute ago, 54 said: It's also very disingenuous to compare Frankfurt and Sevilla's situation to the same as Man Uniteds, Man United and Spurs have a revenue of £770m and £615m respectively, whereas Frankfurt and Sevilla's is £245m and £199m, and I think the thing most people are annoyed about, and I could be completely wrong here, so please correct me if i'm wrong, is that the trophy means something to Sevilla and Frankfurt, Man United fans won't really remember it in 5 years time for the most part, and it feels like its being treated by the club as just a mechanism to get into the Champions League not for the trophy itself, in a way that almost discredits the competition they're actually trying to win. I will correct you on this one. We look back on our Europa League win with Mourinho very fondly, and the loss against Villarreal still hurts. The prestige and financial gain from playing in the CL is just so huge that it becomes the #1 priority, but it's not like we don't care about the trophy. It was the same when we won the league cup. People think we approach these competitions like we're still the dominant side under Fergie and it's not the case. All silverware these days is hard to come by and we want to win things, especially given the season has been so poor. I don't think we'll beat Spurs, but I really fucking want to. I really wish it was Bodo/Glimt instead and I'd be looking to the final with huge confidence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy84 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 4 minutes ago, Froggy said: I will correct you on this one. We look back on our Europa League win with Mourinho very fondly, and the loss against Villarreal still hurts. The prestige and financial gain from playing in the CL is just so huge that it becomes the #1 priority, but it's not like we don't care about the trophy. It was the same when we won the league cup. People think we approach these competitions like we're still the dominant side under Fergie and it's not the case. All silverware these days is hard to come by and we want to win things, especially given the season has been so poor. I don't think we'll beat Spurs, but I really fucking want to. I really wish it was Bodo/Glimt instead and I'd be looking to the final with huge confidence. You don’t think you’ll beat Spurs? Will be a fairly comfortable Man Utd win in the end Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 Couldn’t think of a team I’d rather play in a final than Spurs, like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 16 minutes ago, Andy84 said: You don’t think you’ll beat Spurs? Will be a fairly comfortable Man Utd win in the end Our team seems to struggle with the physicality of the Premier League. Dorgu, Garnacho, Hojlund etc. get pushed off the ball easier in England but not so much when playing a European side. I just wanted to avoid a Premier League side completely, especially one that has already beaten us three times this season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Duper Branko Strupar Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 The most annoying thing about the teams that have got to the final is they're due some pain due to their terrible decisions and performances for a while. But yet again, because of favorable conditions for however long, one of them is going to get a reprieve. Which is wholly undeserved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzza Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 (edited) Would rather Spurs wont the final than Manu. Think Manu would benefit much more if they won It and got CL and would be more of a danger to us in the future. Edited May 9 by buzza Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 1 hour ago, Froggy said: Tgarve is right though. Nobody cared when it was Frankfurt or Sevilla getting a spot in the Champions League via the Europa. It's only an issue now because of who the finalists are. I do find it funny that some people think the 5th place finishers in the league have a right to be in the Champions League, yet the Europa League champions somehow aren't worthy. 54 has covered most of it, but my post (which tgarve quoted) was about the Europa League being devalued as an honour in itself. That's what will happen if it's routinely considered a route to CL qualification first and a piece of silverware second. If the EL is going to contain fewer teams of really high quality, then there's a significant risk that the Premier League teams are going to dominate for years to come. To avoid that, those teams need to be less incentivised, which is why I suggested binning the CL carrot. Not because it isn't a reasonable reward. Ironically, having more teams qualify for the CL via the league campaign could actually assist with that disincentivising, as that year's respective EL entrants may already be in the race via the league method. Spurs and ManU have had maximum incentive in the EL this year because they've had nothing to play for domestically since September. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT24 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 If Spurs win we will never hear the end of Ange spouting his “winning something in second season” nonsense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexf Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 Only silver lining is that one of these teams will lose and therefore have had a rotten season. I think Man U win. They have Amad back now who is always a threat, whereas Spurs have picked up a few more injuries. There is also the mental aspect, Man U just expect to win finals and will rise to the occasion, Spurs are like us pre-eddie and they are more likely to wilt under the light. Man U commercially are a monster as well so were less likely to be hurt financially by missing out on CL, their project with Amorim is going to take while and may still run into issues next year, even with a CL cash boost. Spurs on the other hand, with a boost of CL money and if they changed manager and had bit of luck with some better signings are not a million miles of being decent again, a lot of young potential in their squad. So I fear they would be a more likely contender to overtake us next season than Man U if they got CL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbydazzla Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 (edited) May 21st is going to be like going away on a family caravan holiday and you can hear your mam & dad shagging in the double bedroom and your nana & granda are shagging on the sofa bed in the living room whilst you're wide awake in your sleeping bag in the single bedroom wishing you'd never been born Edited May 9 by bobbydazzla Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucasol Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 1 minute ago, bobbydazzla said: May 21st is going to be like going away on a family caravan holiday and you can hear your mam & dad shagging in the bedroom and your nana & granda are shagging on the sofa bed in the living room whilst you're wide awake in your sleeping bag in the single bedroom wishing you'd never been born Some deep caravan club scars being reopened there Bobby lad. On the plus side, I see Cindy is back in the old ‘Enders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbydazzla Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 2 minutes ago, Nucasol said: Some deep caravan club scars being reopened there Bobby lad. On the plus side, I see Cindy is back in the old ‘Enders. Sales of Mansize Kleenex have dramatically increased in the NE29 area Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STM Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 I'm actually going to go against the grain and say that I'd much prefer sides that actually won something to get into the champions league. For example qualification in England should look like: PL winners Runners Up FA cup winners Carabao Cup winners If the PL winners/runners up also win a cup then 3rd place gets in and 4th if both. So if you win Europa Conference/ Europa League then yes you should get in the CL. It also adds more reward for winning cups, which means sides try harder and play their better players, which makes it more enjoyable and engaging. We are just unfortunate that two absolute rotten sides are in the final, in a normal year a Villa or a Forest or us would likely get the benefit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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