Financial Fair Play / Profit & Sustainability

[timeEd32]

"We will be writing separately about this to the Premier League but in the meantime, given the findings in the award, this is the time for careful reflection and consideration by all clubs, and not for a knee-jerk reaction. Such an unwise course would be likely to lead to further legal proceedings with further legal costs. It is critical for member clubs to feel that they can have trust in their regulator."

 

I've read this quote like 10 times. It's wonderful. 

[KetsbaiaIsBald]

I hope they follow through on their threat and try to get an injunction against the premier league. 

[lovejoy]

27 minutes ago, timeEd32 said:

"We will be writing separately about this to the Premier League but in the meantime, given the findings in the award, this is the time for careful reflection and consideration by all clubs, and not for a knee-jerk reaction. Such an unwise course would be likely to lead to further legal proceedings with further legal costs. It is critical for member clubs to feel that they can have trust in their regulator."

 

I've read this quote like 10 times. It's wonderful. 

 

So good.

[Ben]

3 hours ago, duo said:

Clubs will be able to get more through as part of APT deals but the rules are still there.  The biggest impact I can see is the ruling that interest free loans shouldn't be excluded from PSR and clubs need to be paying interest.  That'll bring a lot of clubs in to play of breaching the rules which in turn will have more clubs wanting change - which can only benefit us.

 

Can they not just increase the loan to pay the interest and then defer that to the following years accounts 

[TRon]

43 minutes ago, timeEd32 said:

"We will be writing separately about this to the Premier League but in the meantime, given the findings in the award, this is the time for careful reflection and consideration by all clubs, and not for a knee-jerk reaction. Such an unwise course would be likely to lead to further legal proceedings with further legal costs. It is critical for member clubs to feel that they can have trust in their regulator."

 

I've read this quote like 10 times. It's wonderful. 

 

It's more shameful they didn't take such a considered stance before rushing through the previous rule amendments a few weeks after our takeover.

[Boey_Jarton]

4 hours ago, WilliamPS said:

Sorry this is nonsense.  Doing it with any other method would be a legal minefield as there is an established way of assessing market value. Assessing fair value of sponsorship deals is going to be very hard, as how do you assess accurately what it’s worth. But loans are incredibly easy, if a commercial bank would give you the rate it’s a market rate- as it’s literally available on the market.

 

By the way, corporates do it that way as HMRC accept that the bank quotes will give the market value, and there is a body of case law behind that. It isn’t for “internal purposes” it’s for legal compliance with tax law.

 

You have misunderstood my point.

 

I am suggesting that clubs that do have owner loans can make arguments as to what the fair value of those loans are and this is open to interpretation in a way that is not entirely dissimilar to commercial sponsorships.

 

In turn, I predict that policing the value of owner loans (alongside commercial deals and PSR more generally) will become an almost impossible, bureaucratic process. 

 

A loan is a financial instrument involving two parties and is priced based on a multitude of factors, some of which are not 'market based' but very specific to the two parties involved and the exact structure of the debt instrument that is being used. Different clubs have different risk profiles and do not have the same cost of capital. 

 

Private debt can also come in many forms - it can mature over an infinite number of time horizons, it may include covenants, it may be secured against assets, it may involve options to covert it into equity. You cannot simply go to Barclays and get a like-for-like market quote for this asset class. 

 

By 'internal' I am referring to corporation tax purposes. The preparation of corporation tax is an internal finance process (although sometimes outsourced to accountancy firms). Tax accounting does not purport to represent financial sustainability, it is simply applying financial transactions to written rules which are set by an independent body (Government). 

 

Thanks for suggesting my post was 'nonsense'.

 

I comment regularly on PSR/financial matters because it is one of the few areas in life where I am hopefully well placed to offer some interesting viewpoints. As a boring Chartered Accountant of 20 years, I am one of the few saddos on here that really enjoys this topic. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ben]

5 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

It's more shameful they didn't take such a considered stance before rushing through the previous rule amendments a few weeks after our takeover.

 

Football is full of selfish, greedy, mercenary individuals, the failed European Super League proved that, unfortunately the way the league is self imploding and the weak to no leadership, I agree with Simon Jordon that it could start again

[Jackie Broon]

19 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

It's more shameful they didn't take such a considered stance before rushing through the previous rule amendments a few weeks after our takeover.

 

Unfortunately, that was found to be legitimate by the arbitration panel.

[janpawel]

Did City challange the fact that the rules /FFP  are anti-competitive and exist to maintain the status quo, or was this just on the fair market value /sponsorship stuff? 

 

Just curious as I'm assuming the PL successfully argued the case if it was brought up and I'd love to know their reasoning 

[Jackie Broon]

33 minutes ago, janpawel said:

Did City challange the fact that the rules /FFP  are anti-competitive and exist to maintain the status quo, or was this just on the fair market value /sponsorship stuff? 

 

Just curious as I'm assuming the PL successfully argued the case if it was brought up and I'd love to know their reasoning 

 

They did consider that (from page 41 on) but only in the context of the APT rules, they didn't consider the lawfulness of PSR as a whole:

 

192. We agree that the move to an ex ante regime with a freeze on monies being used until there has been a determination that the APT is evidently not above FMV is a more intrusive market intervention than the previous ex post regime. However, as we have found, the evidence referred to at [180] above, indicates that there were difficulties in the speedy and effective investigation of potential breaches under the ex post regime. RPTs were not being declared, and any restatement would be made long after the money had been done. As a result, the PSR was not effective. There has been no challenge to the PSR or to the principle of detecting and eliminating subsidies by way of RPTs with the clubs.

 

(I know this contradicts what I said earlier and PSR being here to stay)

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Jackie Broon

[FloydianMag]

 

[Ben]

15 minutes ago, FloydianMag said:

 

 

Shite going down

[The Bonk]

16 minutes ago, FloydianMag said:

 

 

Aye, like they haven't done the damage themselves. Feels like the opposite needs to happen as we all know who has deeper pockets and better lawyers.   

Love the drama this has brought to an international break that's usually 2 weeks of football boredom. ❤️

[Elliottman]

24 minutes ago, FloydianMag said:

 

‘Unnamed club figure’ ffs 😅

 

Could be Dave the fucking cleaner. 

[et tu brute]

If Man City's claims are right (I fully believe they will be), then it's going to blow the whole lot up. This won't be the only thing that comes to the forefront and about time 

[toontownman]

1 minute ago, et tu brute said:

If Man City's claims are right (I fully believe they will be), then it's going to blow the whole lot up. This won't be the only thing that comes to the forefront and about time 

Can't come soon enough. We will sit at the back of the class, waiting patiently and watching the explosion from a safe distance, ready to charge in when it's clear lol

[Nucasol]

2 hours ago, lovejoy said:

 

So good.

[NG32]

What a fucking mess 

[Ronson333]

 

[Ronson333]

 

[The College Dropout]

8 minutes ago, Ronson333 said:

 

Arsenal

Liverpool

Spurs

Man U

Brighton

Palace 

 

We think?

[gbandit]

Need a royal rumble style brawl with all the owners in the ring. Yasir appears at the end diving from the heavens and crushes Levy’s spine while Ratcliffe gets caught trying to buy an Eredivisie chump from the audience and put through a chair by guest star Mehrdad “the finisher” Ghodoussi

[RodneyCisse]

I’m sure we’ll find out the 6 clubs, but why only 6?

[TheHoob]

1 hour ago, FloydianMag said:

 

 

[PauloGeordio]

1 hour ago, Ben said:

 

Shite going down