Match Atmosphere

[Wandy]

I've been unsure as to whether to start a new thread on this topic (I've never actually created a thread in my 17 years as a member), and I apologise for the long post..... but in this case I think it's warranted. The point of the thread isn't meant to be an ego trip, or to moan about our support, or claim that we have shit fans. Neither is it meant to be a point-scoring "I'm a better fan than you" pissing contest. 

 

The new owners have already done a magnificent job of repairing a lot of the damage caused by the Ashley years. Now they need to be made aware of the next huge hangover from that era that needs resolving.

 

There's a lot of ongoing debate in various threads about the poor state of the match atmosphere, specifically at home games, but the disappointing experience of many at the cup final has confirmed to me personally that there is a significant issue with the nature of our support or, more specifically, the way it's structured at matches.

 

I feel we need a designated thread for match atmosphere because the debate gets lost in other threads. For instance, a lot of debate is currently in the Wor Flags thread, but most of the time the complaints etc end up lost in post-match comments or the SJP one. IMO the SJP thread should be about stadium issues only and the Wor Flags one for visual displays at matches. Other big forums for other teams such as RAWK have a specific thread for match atmosphere so I think a specific thread on here would be a good place to concentrate minds on our matchday atmosphere & general crowd issues, both good & bad.

 

We all know what the problem is. 10,000+ fans walked out on the club in protest over Ashley between 2008 & 2019, particularly after Rafa effectively resigned and amongst those numbers were a lot of fans who made the most noise at SJP. Now, those people cannot get back in. The result is that there is now a distinct lack of noise at SJP for very large parts of games & we have almost completely lost our songbook. We used to have one of the best songbooks in the country and now we are at a point where we don't even sing our own famous anthem, the Blaydon Races. Added to this is that there are many reports of fans bickering, arguing...even fighting amongst each other because some fans are standing up in front of people who just want to sit.

 

We've got to do something abut it.

 

I'd like to think that the NUST would be the ones to engage about the problem but, sadly, I have no faith in them. For me, it's the Wor Flags lads n lasses who can help push a message through to the club. They already have a very healthy relationship with the club and I strongly feel that the club will genuinely listen and engage wherever possible.

 

Now that the club have bought back the land at Strawberry Place, this is the exact time when the supporters need to have a say in what happens with regards to future changes to SJP. We all know that some kind of development is on the horizon, be it a Level 7 expansion to the Gallowgate or a complete redesign of SJP on the current footprint. Maybe even an all-new stadium on Castle Leazes. Nobody knows what the detail will be, but we all know that something is is about to change at SJP. And we, the supporters, need to be involved.

 

In my opinion, hopefully as early as this summer, there needs to be a number of things happen : -

 

* There needs to be a major reorganisation of season ticket holders within the Gallowgate End. At least 50% (but preferably 100%) of it needs to be made safe standing, with the clear objective being to create a Kop End singing section.

* The club needs to relocate existing season ticket holders in the Gallowgate End who do not wish to stand and/or be a part of a singing section. If needs be, give these people a discount on their next season ticket as a sweetener to move to an alternative seat.

* Make more safe standing season tickets available for the Gallowgate End, but with the clear information that these tickets are people who wish to be part of a singing section.

* Make sure that a reasonable amount of tickets for the all-new Gallowgate End are available for general sale, so that members who are not fortunate enough to get a season ticket can still get the chance to participate in the singing section by grabbing a ticket from the general sale.

 

In the long run, if this proposal went ahead and was a success, the club could think of introducing more safe standing singing sections around the stadium. For instance, if there is a Level 7 expansion to the Gallowgate they could go there. Or maybe Level 7 in the Leazes corner, where there used be a congregation of singers. But the club cannot simply stick a singing section in Level 7 only, away from pitch level. A singing section needs to be a visual experience that the TV cameras can clearly see, as well as an aural one.

 

Every club has many different types of supporter. Some want to shout, sing & scream for 90 minutes wheread others just want to spectate and watch a game. Neither is a superior supporter, but the problem is that these two types of people are all mixed together and it's making all of them unhappy.

 

Sorry if this appears to be treading old ground, and also the long read, but I really think we need to properly focus on this issue now. Being outsung in a cup final has brought things to a head, in my honest opinion.

 

@Whitley mag@Wallsendmag @jack j  @TheDimpleboy  @NUFC91  @Rich  @pedro111 and anyone else who feels the same, please get the ball rolling and put your thoughts in here. Maybe the mods could cut & paste some of the current comments in the Wor Flags thread to get the ball rolling?

 

Also, @Heron & @Greg ...maybe you lads could advise us on just how much clout you could have with the club on this matter. We have a one-time opportunity to change things for the better because once a stadium expansion happens, the seating & standing arrangements will be impossible to change if we still are not happy with them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Wandy

[SteV]

Good post.

Accept your point about not having faith in NUST - but - they (along with Wor Flags to an extent) are the ones with the ear of the club. If you were to put the majority of what you’ve posted in an email (or other communication) to them, you never know. If there’s particular members you have an issue with go via one of the other ones. They are appear reasonably accessible via social media.

[Wandy]

2 minutes ago, SteV said:

Good post.

Accept your point about not having faith in NUST - but - they (along with Wor Flags to an extent) are the ones with the ear of the club. If you were to put the majority of what you’ve posted in an email (or other communication) to them, you never know. If there’s particular members you have an issue with go via one of the other ones. They are appear reasonably accessible via social media.

 

Cheers. I might send an email to someone at NUST but really not sure if they are on the ball with this, or if they even care. Having said that, it was reassuring to see Alex Hurst post on twitter that he was disappointed with the atmosphere at Wembley.

 

I would even email the club...even Amanda directly if I thought it would get some traction. I imagine that they would be bemused though that some random fan thinks the atmosphere is crap. They probably think its great, but they haven't see SJP really rock the way it can.

 

To be honest, I dont think the national media are helping by blowing smoke up our backsides. A lot of the newer fans must hear what they say and think that all you need to do to create an atmosphere is turn up before kick-off and wave a flag about for a few minutes. And too many people are now turning up at matches to witness an atmosphere rather than help create one.

[SteV]

1 minute ago, Wandy said:

 

Cheers. I might send an email to someone at NUST but really not sure if they are on the ball with this, or if they even care. Having said that, it was reassuring to see Alex Hurst post on twitter that he was disappointed with the atmosphere at Wembley.

 

I would even email the club...even Amanda directly if I thought it would get some traction. I imagine that they would be bemused though that some random fan thinks the atmosphere is crap. They probably think its great, but they haven't see SJP really rock the way it can.

 

To be honest, I dont think the national media are helping by blowing smoke up our backsides. A lot of the newer fans must hear what they say and think that all you need to do to create an atmosphere is turn up before kick-off and wave a flag about for a few minutes. And too many people are now turning up at matches to witness an atmosphere rather than help create one.

I think the key to all of it, which you’ve more or less pointed out, is to get like-minded (maybe like-behavioural is a better phrase) folk together one way or another. 
 

Exactly how you go about that could be a bit of a minefield if you start having to forcibly relocate people, but that’s where the difficult decisions have to be made.

[LFEE]

Very good post and agree with it all in the main apart maybe a bit harsh on the NUST as I think you’ll find most of them would be agreement with you. So if members raise this to the board they will simply ask the question of the club. I plan to raise it at next meeting.

 

Theres definitely got to be a reorganisation of those with similar styles of support so they can be grouped together. No finer example than the Final at the weekend when I was stood in the safe standing area behind the goal (132) expecting to be sat with people my age (pushing close to 50) or younger wanting to get the chants going yet I had older people (60+) on one side and two 4-5yrd olds right in front of me stood on their safe standing seats. No one was even talking to each other or complaining never mind trying to generate any kind of atmosphere. It was weird and awful in equal measures.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Think it's important to make a distinction between being great fans and the home atmosphere being loud.

 

The media and perception is generally correct, we have fans that would do anything for their club. We could have sold out the whole of Wembley on our own. We have extremely passionate fans.

 

It's not wrong to say we have great fans and I don't think we should be too critical about it. I think it's more a question of practical things at games which either promote or inhibit singing. 

[Geogaddi]

I have kind of accepted the atmosphere at home matches being poor mainly as I don’t think any team In the country has a bouncing home ground the majority of the time , however Sunday was a disgrace , with people telling others to sit down and not singing in a cup final. I get the result didn’t help but even before that it just felt flat . Was more atmosphere on the train at 10am on Saturday morning than in block 527 where I was sat. The pubs on Saturday night were bouncing as was Trafalgar  and again the atmosphere before the match on Sunday was brilliant . Yet as soon as you get to the ground the majority around me just sat in silence and told others trying to get an atmosphere going to sit down . 

 

 

 

[LFEE]

2 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Think it's important to make a distinction between being great fans and the home atmosphere being loud.

 

The media and perception is generally correct, we have fans that would do anything for their club. We could have sold out the whole of Wembley on our own. We have extremely passionate fans.

 

It's not wrong to say we have great fans and I don't think we should be too critical about it. I think it's more a question of practical things at games which either promote or inhibit singing. 

Yeah I agree there needs to be a clear distinction and care needs to be taken to not be overly critical of the quiet ones. After all I’m on a normal carriage home right now whereas others could’ve booked a quiet carriage as that would be their preference. For those folk move them all to the upper tiers.

 

Have the entire lower bowl either end and East stand for the cameras as safe standing. Have purpose built foghorns attached in fixed points provided by the club for fans to use along with a couple of drums etc. Couple of loudhailers also.

 

 

[Wandy]

9 minutes ago, LFEE said:

Very good post and agree with it all in the main apart maybe a bit harsh on the NUST as I think you’ll find most of them would be agreement with you. So if members raise this to the board they will simply ask the question of the club. I plan to raise it at next meeting.

 

Theres definitely got to be a reorganisation of those with similar styles of support so they can be grouped together. No finer example than the Final at the weekend when I was stood in the safe standing area behind the goal (132) expecting to be sat with people my age (pushing close to 50) or younger wanting to get the chants going yet I had older people (60+) on one side and two 4-5yrd olds right in front of me stood on their safe standing seats. No one was even talking to each other or complaining never mind trying to generate any kind of atmosphere. It was weird and awful in equal measures.

 

To be honest I only lack faith in NUST as they have seemed to focus on trivial stuff in the past. This though is going to be a big undertaking and also controversial and will undoubtedly cause some animosity from people who don't want to be moved. Will the NUST have the balls to rock the boat in such a fashion when everything, on the surface at least, seems rosy?

[NUFC91]

Great post, like SteV said I think copy and paste that into email. I sent emails to the trust on the same matter.

 

I also think regardless of trust being good or not the club asked their opinion on Wembley ticlets so obviously they will listen. If i was Wor flags and Trust i would reach out to Darren Eales, given his antics before cup final he seems a good character who would listen.

 

In regards to safe standing i'd be happy for it to be located in either the Gallowgate or Leazes end. Reason i mention Leazes end is that it is far more general sale populated. I also think leazes corner would be a perfect area as likely be able to make it larger if was success, expand further round towards eastvatand. Also given the gallowgate exapnsion would take time it might be quockest solution. I also think that a larger population of people in the Leazes who would happily move to galllowgate etc but not so much other way.

 

I am in Leazes currently and often people are singing in concourse at half time...the appetite is there just need right people together. Might come across cringe but also might need to bring a fan group together. If you had couple thousand lads walking up to St james at 2:45pm singing might help carry over to kick off. Also educate other fans tne old classics etc.

 

It needs addressing and we definetly need an "end". If you wanna sit and watch game out yhe way thats fine but lets not hold back large group who want to change this.

 

But yes get on to trust, wor flags etc

[ScottishMagpie]

38 minutes ago, Wandy said:

I've been unsure as to whether to start a new thread on this topic (I've never actually created a thread in my 17 years as a member), and I apologise for the long post..... but in this case I think it's warranted. The point of the thread isn't meant to be an ego trip, or to moan about our support, or claim that we have shit fans. Neither is it meant to be a point-scoring "I'm a better fan than you" pissing contest. 

 

The new owners have already done a magnificent job of repairing a lot of the damage caused by the Ashley years. Now they need to be made aware of the next huge hangover form that era that needs resolving.

 

There's a lot of ongoing debate in various threads about the poor state of the match atmosphere, specifically at home games, but the disappointing experience of many at the cup final has confirmed to me personally that there is a significant issue with the nature of our support or, more specifically, the way it's structured at matches.

 

I feel we need a designated thread for match atmosphere because the debate gets lost in other threads. For instance, a lot of debate is currently in the Wor Flags thread, but most of the time the complaints etc end up lost in post-match comments or the SJP one. IMO the SJP thread should be about stadium issues only and the Wor Flags one for visual displays at matches. Other big forums for other teams such as RAWK have a specific thread for match atmosphere so I think a specific thread on here would be a good place to concentrate minds on our matchday atmosphere & general crowd issues, both good & bad.

 

We all know what the problem is. 10,000+ fans walked out on the club in protest over Ashley between 2008 & 2019, particularly after Rafa effectively resigned and amongst those numbers were a lot of fans who made the most noise at SJP. Now, those people cannot get back in. The result is that there is now a distinct lack of noise at SJP for very large parts of games & we have almost completely lost our songbook. We used to have one of the best songbooks in the country and now we are at a point where we don't even sing our own famous anthem, the Blaydon Races. Added to this is that there are many reports of fans bickering, arguing...even fighting amongst each other because some fans are standing up in front of people who just want to sit.

 

We've got to do something abut it.

 

I'd like to think that the NUST would be the ones to engage about the problem but, sadly, I have no faith in them. For me, it's the Wor Flags lads n lasses who can help push a message through to the club. They already have a very healthy relationship with the club and I strongly feel that the club will genuinely listen and engage wherever possible.

 

Now that the club have bought back the land at Strawberry Place, this is the exact time when the supporters need to have a say in what happens with regards to future changes to SJP. We all know that some kind of development is on the horizon, be it a Level 7 expansion to the Gallowgate or a complete redesign of SJP on the current footprint. Maybe even an all-new stadium on Castle Leazes. Nobody knows what the detail will be, but we all know that something is is about to change at SJP. And we, the supporters, need to be involved.

 

In my opinion, hopefully as early as this summer, there needs to be a number of things happen : -

 

* There needs to be a major reorganisation of season ticket holders within the Gallowgate End. At least 50% (but preferably 100%) of it needs to be made safe standing, with the clear objective being to create a Kop End singing section.

* The club needs to relocate existing season ticket holders in the Gallowgate End who do not wish to stand and/or be a part of a singing section. If needs be, give these people a discount on their next season ticket as a sweetener to move to an alternative seat.

* Make more safe standing season tickets available for the Gallowgate End, but with the clear information that these tickets are people who wish to be part of a singing section.

* Make sure that a reasonable amount of tickets for the all-new Gallowgate End are available for general sale, so that members who are not fortunate enough to get a season ticket can still get the chance to participate in the singing section by grabbing a ticket from the general sale.

 

In the long run, if this proposal went ahead and was a success, the club could think of introducing more safe standing singing sections around the stadium. For instance, if there is a Level 7 expansion to the Gallowgate they could go there. Or maybe Level 7 in the Leazes corner, where there used be a congregation of singers. But the club cannot simply stick a singing section in Level 7 only, away from pitch level. A singing section needs to be a visual experience that the TV cameras can clearly see, as well as an aural one.

 

Every club has many different types of supporter. Some want to shout, sing & scream for 90 minutes wheread others just want to spectate and watch a game. Neither is a superior supporter, but the problem is that these two types of people are all mixed together and it's making all of them unhappy.

 

Sorry if this appears to be treading old ground, and also the long read, but I really think we need to properly focus on this issue now. Being outsung in a cup final has brought things to a head, in my honest opinion.

 

@Whitley mag@Wallsendmag @jack j  @TheDimpleboy  @NUFC91  @Rich  @pedro111 and anyone else who feels the same, please get the ball rolling and put your thoughts in here. Maybe the mods could cut & paste some of the current comments in the Wor Flags thread to get the ball rolling?

 

Also, @Heron & @Greg ...maybe you lads could advise us on just how much clout you could have with the club on this matter. We have a one-time opportunity to change things for the better because once a stadium expansion happens, the seating & standing arrangements will be impossible to change if we still are not happy with them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

For a first post it was almost worth the wait.  Don't make it 17 years before your next one! 

[LFEE]

Just now, Wandy said:

 

To be honest I only lack faith in NUST as they have seemed to focus on trivial stuff in the past. This though is going to be a big undertaking and also controversial and will undoubtedly cause some animosity from people who don't want to be moved. Will the NUST have the balls to rock the boat in such a fashion when everything, on the surface at least, seems rosy?

I think people really don’t understand how a trust (should) work. They are just a conduit. If their members raise trivial stuff in numbers then that’s what gets raised. If it’s members raise larger issues in numbers then they will raise them also. They technically have no power and can’t guarantee anything but at least they have the working relationship with the club to know who to ask and as of last meeting (my first) the club seem to be slowly showing more interest in listening. You got to remember on the list of priorities with the club facing relegation and discovering a shell of the club that some things take time and will be addressed by the club hopefully in their priority.

[Wallsendmag]

Very good post and on a subject that is so important. I think most of us would agree that the atmosphere has been pretty poor this season after the initial takeover hype died down and to carry the flat SJP atmosphere all the way down to Wembley was something that really disappointed/shocked me.

 

For me safe standing is a must and on a large scale similar to Chelsea, Spurs, Wolves and a couple of others. When I say a large scale I mean a full end and the ideal end is of course the Gallowgate End. It already has the highest number of "standers" in the corner and also towards the back of the Upper tier. Also noticed that those in the front tier are also more inclined to stand when we are attacking or winning a corner which isn't the case as much down at the Leazes.

 

Your problem is the middle tier. It is seen as the best view from the Gallowgate and as such is mainly long standing season ticket holders (my 71 year old dad has sat in the same seat there since it was built). Most of them would need relocated as they'd have no interest in standing which I'd expect to cause a bit of a fuss. Tbf to my dad he wouldn't be interested in standing but he'd be happy to relocate to allow it to happen but I'm not sure if he'd be in the minority there. Maybe the club could offer some sort of sweetener (free cup tickets or something like that).

 

There's no point in doing it on a small scale like a corner as it would have minimal effect. It needs to be a full end and it's something that they need to start planning for ASAP to get it in place for next season because as things stand the atmosphere is only going one way.

[Disco]

Atmosphere was good in the two homes games (Everton & Villa) I've been too this season and only last season against Arsenal we saw what was said by many to be the best we've had in years so I don't think it's that much of an issue and it's certainly not a problem, if it is indeed one, unique to Newcastle.

[NUFC91]

14 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Think it's important to make a distinction between being great fans and the home atmosphere being loud.

 

The media and perception is generally correct, we have fans that would do anything for their club. We could have sold out the whole of Wembley on our own. We have extremely passionate fans.

 

It's not wrong to say we have great fans and I don't think we should be too critical about it. I think it's more a question of practical things at games which either promote or inhibit singing. 

 

On the flip our fans think because we sell out we mint fans. Minus bournemouth every club in prem would sell out Wembley. 

 

In my opinion great fans dont sit at wembley and bitch about fans standing. Great fans would back their side in their biggest game in years...

[AyeDubbleYoo]

My impression of ultras sections in other countries is that they're pretty grass-roots and organised by a small group of passionate people. 

 

At Nice for example, they were even selling their own merchandise in the concourse at half time.

 

At Palmeiras it seemed like anyone was allowed to sit and stand basically anywhere once they were through the gates, I didn't get anywhere near the seat on my ticket

 

Guess it would need to both, from the bottom up and with the club behind it to allow and amplify what they do.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

3 minutes ago, Disco said:

Atmosphere was good in the two homes games (Everton & Villa) I've been too this season and only last season against Arsenal we saw what was said by many to be the best we've had in years so I don't think it's that much of an issue and it's certainly not a problem, if it is indeed one, unique to Newcastle.

 

When it clicks it can be amazing. Guess you just need something, either the circumstances or the stuff happening on the pitch, to give more people the drive to join in. 

 

That's part of the reason I think a more explicit effort to conduct the fans would be needed. Otherwise you have to just wait and rely on what is happening in the game. Which is fine and normal, but won't ever get the level of crazy that some people are looking for. 

[The Prophet]

Even when I attended regularly from Souness through to Pardew, I've always known it to be this way. The atmosphere peaks at the start of the game, after a goal celebration (obviously) or after a perceived injustice, but on the whole there's a lot of groaning, moaning and clapping with only the odd pocket of sustained noise. 

[NE27]

10 minutes ago, NUFC91 said:

I am in Leazes currently and often people are singing in concourse at half time...the appetite is there just need right people together. Might come across cringe but also might need to bring a fan group together. If you had couple thousand lads walking up to St james at 2:45pm singing might help carry over to kick off. Also educate other fans tne old classics etc

 

I wouldn't say this was cringe and is exactly what Toon Ultras set out to do previously.

 

Like minded fans need a focal point firstly and start meeting and organising themselves with a repertoire of songs. Then we need to get the club on board with moving st holders (offering them a change obviously, otherwise no fucking complaining your knees are sore or it's too rowdy) then things will snowball imo.

 

Hopefully it will encourage more to get behind it if it is a combined effort.

 

I remember some fans complaining about the flags when they were introduced and the surfers. Everyone loves it now 

 

This very forum clearly has a very dedicated set of fans old and new and could very well be the starting point for all of the above.

 

[Disco]

Having a dedicated ultra area like they do in Germany and elsewhere is absolutely wank IMO. One of the best things about English football is the cyclical atmosphere and how it moves with the game and usually involves all four sides of the ground.

[dorty]

Sitting down at a football match is like sitting down at a gig...it does next to nothing for the atmosphere imo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SteV]

Just now, Disco said:

Having a dedicated ultra area like they do in Germany and elsewhere is absolutely wank IMO. One of the best things about English football is the cyclical atmosphere and how it moves with the game and usually involves all four sides of the ground.

I do agree with this wholeheartedly. Having been to the odd game around Europe, it does feel like the rest of the stadium just sits and watches the ‘Ultras’ bounce up and down. Which is nothing compared to SJP (or other British stadiums) when we get an occasion where the whole place takes off.

 

Having said that, still massively in favour of a large standing section, doesn’t necessarily have to be about Ultras being in there.

[LordJake]

4 minutes ago, dorty said:

Sitting down at a football match is like sitting down at a gig...it does next to nothing for the atmosphere imo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Remember Keegan saying that the only person he knew who could sit and sing was Val Doonican

[LFEE]

6 minutes ago, Disco said:

Having a dedicated ultra area like they do in Germany and elsewhere is absolutely wank IMO. One of the best things about English football is the cyclical atmosphere and how it moves with the game and usually involves all four sides of the ground.

Maybe more the reason to have more than one area around the ground.

[macphisto]

Think it's a bit pointless moving people. I would say in general people become less vocal as they grow older so are we going to move people every ten years or so? 

 

Not directly related to singing and I'm not saying this for a reaction but it's time for Worflags to put their flags down. Too orchestrated now, if people want to wave a flag then let them bring their own. I haven't been to a match in a long, long time due to being overseas but I wouldn't wave a flag.