Harvey Barnes

[lovejoy]

16 goals is mental really. I think that’s 40 goals for us since we signed him, which is some return.

 

I’d sell him tomorrow as well.

 

make it make sense 😂

[Casey]

Not sure we replace his open-play goals as easily as some may think. 

 

This season:

Gordon - 17 goals (8 pens), 5 assists

Barnes - 16 goals (0 pens), 5 assists

 

Gordon has played through the middle or his preferred left. Barnes has been chopped and changed positions and game time.

 

Despite Gordon being alreet at pens, I've never liked it. Prefer the striker on them.

 

For that reason I don't even consider them in my mind when comparing our LW options. Barnes has scored 16 this season, Gordon 9. Think wor Harvey is woefully underrated and I know which one I prefer to keep/extend (though Gordon is off regardless in my mind).

 

 

Edited May 11 by Casey

[nufcjmc]

21 minutes ago, lovejoy said:

16 goals is mental really. I think that’s 40 goals for us since we signed him, which is some return.

 

I’d sell him tomorrow as well.

 

make it make sense 😂

Be better sellers ?

Hes down to 2 years come the summer?

29 at the end of the calendar year?

 

I mean all sensible reasons to let him go now we all need to be junior accountants. However too much change already, more goals taken out of the team, great pro who has at least publicly not kicked up a fuss being dropped, moved left and right and not starting every week. 

 

I like you would take a good fee for him but more so because its likely our last chance to get one?

[duo]

Barnes went a long way to kept us up this season

[Tsunami]

Here’s the thing for me, he’s not quick like Gordon, he doesn’t make everything about him, he can drift in and out of games, he doesn’t demand the ball.

But, had he played more I’m pretty sure we’d be in a European place, he’d have taken some of the chances we’ve missed and the dropped points wouldn’t be as bad as they are, we’d have killed some of those games off.

 

You just need to look at the facts and compare the goals/ assists between Barnes and the rest, I’ll not just include Gordon in that however, Gordon flatters, bottom line is that his end product isn’t good enough.

 

Last thing to ask is; how many in our squad would have finished Barnes’ goal against Forest as clinically as Barnes, in fact how many would have scored? I’m pretty sure most would have just put their boot through it and hoped.

[QBG]

3 hours ago, Dembacha said:

Yeah but if we score goals, we run the risk of being dissapointed when we're inevitably pegged back. Get rid.

 

[SteV]

1 hour ago, Casey said:

Despite Gordon being alreet at pens, I've never liked it. Prefer the striker on them.

 

For that reason I don't even consider them in my mind when comparing our LW options.

That’s some mad logic just to downplay Gordon 🤣

[ryanegg]

Said it before and will say it again, we need to play him up front. Looked like he was for the goal yesterday.

[Casey]

5 minutes ago, SteV said:

That’s some mad logic just to downplay Gordon 🤣

No?

 

One player gets them and it's largely arbitrary. Penalties aren't a repeatable, reproducible source of goals. You may get 3 in a season or you may get 10. Odds on about 4-5 players (maybe more) in our squad could score the same number if they were ones taking it from the spot.

It's not an indicator of good performance.

 

 

Edited May 11 by Casey

[SteV]

Just now, Casey said:

No?

 

One player gets them and it's largely arbitrary. Penalties aren't a repeatable, reproducible source of goals. You may get 3 in a season or you may get 10. Odds on about 4-5 players (maybe more) in our squad could score the same number if they were ones taking it from the spot.

 

 

 

If Woltemade had been on pens all season, and scored them all, would anyone on here be saying ‘I know he’s got 18 goals this season, but 9 of them were pens, it’s only really 9’. Of course not.

 

Or when dickhead was banging in 20+ for us in the last couple of seasons, I don’t remember anyone subtracting the pens scored from his total (well, not until we sold him anyway…).

[Pata]

Open play goals are definitely worth more IMO. In defense of Gordon he is one of the best in buying penalties though.

 

 

Edited May 11 by Pata

[geordie_b]

1 minute ago, Pata said:

Open play goals are definitely worth more IMO. In defense of Gordon he is one of the best in buying penalties though.

 

 

 

 

Makers takers

[SteV]

1 minute ago, Pata said:

Open play goals are definitely worth more IMO. In defense of Gordon he is one of the best in buying penalties though.

 

 

 

You’d rather have a player that scores 20 open play goals, as opposed to 20 pens, so I guess in that sense I sorta do agree with @Casey.

 

But like I say, Gordon’s pens just get almost dismissed as if they don’t count because he isn’t particularly popular with a section of the fanbase. That hasn’t and doesn’t seem to apply with most other players.

[Casey]

4 minutes ago, SteV said:

If Woltemade had been on pens all season, and scored them all, would anyone on here be saying ‘I know he’s got 18 goals this season, but 9 of them were pens, it’s only really 9’. Of course not.

 

Or when dickhead was banging in 20+ for us in the last couple of seasons, I don’t remember anyone subtracting the pens scored from his total (well, not until we sold him anyway…).

They absolutely would consider and state that if they were comparing and assessing players especially with regards to who to stick or sell. 

 

A more apt hypothetical comparison would be, if Woltemade and Osula had both scored 10 but Wolt had 6 pens. The non-pens are without a shadow of a doubt a clearer indicator of goal-scoring performance, because you could have given those 6 pens to any other competent penalty taker.

 

Not sure about the latter part, I don't consider what someone did multiple seasons ago that relevant if they've not hit that standard since, otherwise we should be back in for Wilson when the hammers get relegated  

[Casey]

4 minutes ago, SteV said:

You’d rather have a player that scores 20 open play goals, as opposed to 20 pens, so I guess in that sense I sorta do agree with @Casey.

 

But like I say, Gordon’s pens just get almost dismissed as if they don’t count because he isn’t particularly popular with a section of the fanbase. That hasn’t and doesn’t seem to apply with most other players.

Wasn't using it as a excuse to downplay Gordon. There's a reason he's worth what he is and with room to grow.

 

In the context of the original post (discussing Barnes' value) and how others were discussing selling him, I think it's relevant to contrast the output of the players we have and their seasons. Part of that includes the open-play goal malarkey and with that I think the non-pens are practically meaningless for comparison or assessing performance.

[SteV]

3 minutes ago, Casey said:

They absolutely would consider and state that if they were comparing and assessing players especially with regards to who to stick or sell. 

 

A more apt hypothetical comparison would be, if Woltemade and Osula had both scored 10 but Wolt had 6 pens. The non-pens are without a shadow of a doubt a clearer indicator of goal-scoring performance, because you could have given those 6 pens to any other competent penalty taker.

 

Not sure about the latter part, I don't consider what someone did multiple seasons ago that relevant if they've not hit that standard since, otherwise we should be back in for Wilson when the hammers get relegated  

As I say, I do probably agree with the basic premise of the argument, that scoring open play goals is worth more than scoring pens.

 

But, and obviously this isn’t aimed at you in particular, there’s clearly a narrative that’s developed this season that ‘Gordon’s scored X, but’. Moreso than I’ve ever known with any other player.

[The College Dropout]

Open play goals do matter a lot.  
 

even bad penalty takers are like 50:50. 

[Colos Short and Curlies]

There's only one Gordon pen I can remember and that's the one he missed at Goodison.

 

Says it all on how unremarkable it is that you know he will score them, and that's a quality worth it's weight in gold.

 

Still put Harvey's goal haul ahead of Gordon's though, as has been said you just don't know how the penalty counts is going to go one season to the next so a reliable open play goal scorer is more valuable.

 

On the other hand what the g/a stats don't show is how many goals come about due to a players involvement earlier in the move and Gordon probably comes out on top there 

[SteV]

I should also point out that, despite being a relatively vociferous supporter in general of Gordon, I have absolutely no desire to see us peddle Barnes any time soon.

[BonesJones]

Anyone think he could do well playing off Woltemade? Not sure who's place he would take but maybe if Gordon goes play him on the left but closer to Nick.

 

Think that would benefit both their games with the way Barnes loves a 1 2 and Nick can pick a pass.

 

I'd rather we let Gordon go, have Osula cover LW to come off the bench for Barnes and then get a creative player in this team at RW or midfield, rather than look for a starting LW. With Barnes already here and having always done a good job in terms of goals which you cant really argue with, I feel we have far far more important positions to use the Gordon money on. 

[kingxlnc]

13 hours ago, SteV said:

You’d rather have a player that scores 20 open play goals, as opposed to 20 pens, so I guess in that sense I sorta do agree with @Casey.

 

But like I say, Gordon’s pens just get almost dismissed as if they don’t count because he isn’t particularly popular with a section of the fanbase. That hasn’t and doesn’t seem to apply with most other players.

We have Wissa who did that in the PL last year...

[TRon]

13 hours ago, SteV said:

I should also point out that, despite being a relatively vociferous supporter in general of Gordon, I have absolutely no desire to see us peddle Barnes any time soon.

 

 

If we got an offer of close to what we paid for him, then the only way we can grow is supposedly sell players at peak value. 

[Pablo123]

I'd keep Barnes (not Alan). He's a streaky player, but he seems like a good lad. Never whinged in the press when he wasn't starting and just gets on with things in whatever position he's asked to play - a consummate professional. Other players should follow his example. 

 

 

[HawK]

To get the maximum value for him, if we do sell, we need to sell before we buy as it puts us in a stronger selling position.

 

However, there is no evidence so far that we're capable of then bringing in a quality replacement in short order afterwards.

 

So purely on this and having been stung in the summer window previously, I'd say, how the F are we going to replace his goals if he goes so I think he needs to stay.

 

 

Edited May 12 by HawK

[jonny1403]

14 hours ago, Colos Short and Curlies said:

There's only one Gordon pen I can remember and that's the one he missed at Goodison.

 

Says it all on how unremarkable it is that you know he will score them, and that's a quality worth it's weight in gold.

 

Still put Harvey's goal haul ahead of Gordon's though, as has been said you just don't know how the penalty counts is going to go one season to the next so a reliable open play goal scorer is more valuable.

 

On the other hand what the g/a stats don't show is how many goals come about due to a players involvement earlier in the move and Gordon probably comes out on top there 

Exactly this, it’s a very valuable attribute to have. Imagine having to watch Bruno take all our pens this season, you’d have a heart attack