Cf

The medical team will have recommended surgery on balance from the advice they had all received. But it won't have been a clear cut you definitely need surgery. There's a lot more nuance to it than some people are making out and it's why I don't find Howe's comments helpful the way he's seemingly made out that Botman overruled the club and this is some sort of crisis of management. This sort of discussion about whether an injury requires surgery or not probably happens all the time. We obviously aren't privy to such conversations. It's just not that often that this is the outcome.

Because sometimes you have no good options. In hindsight we should have probably gone the surgery route. But the key point is this would also have been a gamble. The surgery could have complications, it might be a success but he comes back not the same, he'd obviously be out longer, etc. As I said there's no blanket rule in this scenario and it's a case by case basis. Presented with the various pieces of advice the player went down the no surgery route. Had every piece of advice been "you need surgery" he'd have had it.

This is where Howe's comments aren't helpful. In reality they'll have all discussed it as a group and as a result of Botman's input of not wanting the surgery will have agreed a plan for how to proceed without. I don't know what this he's not playing is about. He didn't play whilst he had to rest. Once he's rested and it's seemingly healed why wouldn't Howe play him?

The key point for me was yes it was a gamble. But surgery isn't without risks - it also would have been a gamble. Essentially he didn't get injured enough. Had it been more serious it would have required surgery. Had it been less serious he'd have just needed some rest and rehab. As it happens the damage was somewhere in the middle where there wasn't really a correct choice. If there's lessons to learn then yeah learn them. But the lesson isn't "if in doubt get the surgery". It's far too simplistic and is going to be on a case by case basis.

Not everything needs blame apportioned.

In that sense perhaps not but surgery entails risks. Risks someone might not want to take with their body when some medical experts are telling them they don't think you need it.

Howe's comments though are a little more fanning the flames than we've come to expect. "There was conflicting advice from specialists as to whether surgery was required or not. Between the player and our medical team we decided to proceed without and monitor the situation as time went on. In hindsight surgery might have been the better choice but it wasn't a clear cut decision". Done.

Doesn't sound like a huge deal to me. Sounds like it was somewhat 50/50 whether the surgery was required, medical team erred on the side of caution to get it done, and Botman presented with the options decided he wanted to proceed without. He knows his own body and I'm sure there'll have been scans etc as time went on. Just yet another injury related issue that's fallen the wrong way for us.

Is he? What have we won under him? He's got good records in terms of going deep in competitions and whilst you can only beat what's in front of you he's had massively favourable draws and i'd argue we've achieved on the lower end of expectations given that apart from that one game against Germany we've fallen down as soon as we've come against any half decent side.

In terms of xPts from understat we "should" have finished 15th and 16th. The football was obviously shit but we over performed which was pretty clear via eye test. The 16th was only a couple of points from relegation so a couple of key things falling the other way could have seen that as a relegation season quite easily. So no it wasn't great on paper.

4, 2, and 135 in the bin.

You can tell it's international break time when Pardew vs Bruce is wheeled out again.

Thought he was given as much as you can reasonably expect to be given against Man City tonight. He just didn't have a good game by his standards. Ball control was lacking.

He's got Trippier and Livramento out injured, and he's having Murphy cover RB. It's not like he's got tons of options.

Wtf is that yellow.

Ah well we had a go.

How much longer does Bruno need to avoid a yellow for or does it not matter in the cup?

Murphy MOTM so far.

Nice ball from Murphy there.

I turned it off when wolves scored their second

Good goal tbf

Wow that was awful.

This is like the first time ever apart from his sacking that this thread getting bumped hasn't made me angry.

We all know it's true though. The fact she said it in the first place shows what she thinks of him despite putting in the apology to cover off any potential action.

Well that was shit.