Optimistic Nut Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 This club f***s everything up so it doesnt surprise me that we have sold our best player to the richest club in the world for next to nothing. and the selling of s*** players for way more than they're worth? this is the only deal which isnt very good. And even that depends on his fitness...if he only plays 20 games a season now (has there been anything else about his supposed failed medical?), then it's a good deal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 This club f***s everything up so it doesnt surprise me that we have sold our best player to the richest club in the world for next to nothing. and the selling of s*** players for way more than they're worth? this is the only deal which isnt very good. Milner, and... ? N'Zogbia, Dyer, Parker & Rozehnal for £24m has to be good money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Libertine Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 This club fucks everything up so it doesnt surprise me that we have sold our best player to the richest club in the world for next to nothing. and the selling of shit players for way more than they're worth? this is the only deal which isnt very good. Milner, and... ? dyer and parker and emre and rozenhal and faye and n'zogbia. possibly luque, not sure if the rumours are right about that one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcmk Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I think Given has made a mistake in leaving Newcastle. What is the common attribute of the keepers in the top three teams? Impeccable distribution. Footballing ability with the ball at feet, good throwing, an ability to read the game and know whether it is an appropriate time to bullet the ball to a winger on the half way line, or casually roll it out to a full back for possession-type football. Indeed, in two of these keepers - Van der Saar and Almunia - we have players who's only real ability is in this regard: neither are anything like as good a shot stopper as Shay. If Man City want to be a great team, they've bought the wrong player. Shay looked so good for us now because a shot stopper flourishes in a bad team; but when he has to start thinking about how to use the ball, rather than just being relieved the opposition attack has been temporarily dulled, what is he going to do? Shay is a % guy who works if you need to stop a high volume of opposition chances, but I don't think he has the distribution, concentration or presence to be a good keeper in a top quality team where the keeper has more touches with his feet than his hands. There will be fewer defenders around him so quantitatively more one-on-ones and close range shots; aspects in which he is relatively weaker. Can he learn? Keegan tried to get Shay to start playing it short and building from the back, but he never really did so well. He has this bizarre 'last minute' mentality whereby he makes a pressurised kick just before he's closed down rather than positively distributing the ball. Of course, the caveat there we haven't had a defender who an distribute the ball properly since Bramble (and there I apply the term defender loosely). In essence, the top 4 keeper is a big imposing footballer, rather than a shot, spry agile chap. What a load of BS that is, didn't finish reading it. Not bitter are we? Primary reason for buying a keeper - to stop shots. Given does that IMO the best in the league, and has been outstanding his entire time here. He therefore would be an outstanding addition to any side... O weren't we a top 4 side with him in the team i seem to remember. He wasn't good enough for us then? We should of signed van der Saar when he wasn't impressing at Fulham perhaps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrette Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 This club f***s everything up so it doesnt surprise me that we have sold our best player to the richest club in the world for next to nothing. and the selling of s*** players for way more than they're worth? this is the only deal which isnt very good. Milner, and... ? N'Zogbia, Dyer, Parker & Rozehnal for £24m has to be good money. In a way. But to be honest I don't think any of that lot went for a great deal more than I would have expected them to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I think Given has made a mistake in leaving Newcastle. What is the common attribute of the keepers in the top three teams? Impeccable distribution. Footballing ability with the ball at feet, good throwing, an ability to read the game and know whether it is an appropriate time to bullet the ball to a winger on the half way line, or casually roll it out to a full back for possession-type football. Indeed, in two of these keepers - Van der Saar and Almunia - we have players who's only real ability is in this regard: neither are anything like as good a shot stopper as Shay. If Man City want to be a great team, they've bought the wrong player. Shay looked so good for us now because a shot stopper flourishes in a bad team; but when he has to start thinking about how to use the ball, rather than just being relieved the opposition attack has been temporarily dulled, what is he going to do? Shay is a % guy who works if you need to stop a high volume of opposition chances, but I don't think he has the distribution, concentration or presence to be a good keeper in a top quality team where the keeper has more touches with his feet than his hands. There will be fewer defenders around him so quantitatively more one-on-ones and close range shots; aspects in which he is relatively weaker. Can he learn? Keegan tried to get Shay to start playing it short and building from the back, but he never really did so well. He has this bizarre 'last minute' mentality whereby he makes a pressurised kick just before he's closed down rather than positively distributing the ball. Of course, the caveat there we haven't had a defender who an distribute the ball properly since Bramble (and there I apply the term defender loosely). In essence, the top 4 keeper is a big imposing footballer, rather than a shot, spry agile chap. What a load of BS that is, didn't finish reading it. Not bitter are we? It was a very good post and spot on in my opinion, nothing I haven't said for years, and is why he's never been bid for by a top manager at a top club. He was still our best player though sadly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirge Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 He still does and always will love us. He just wanted away from the mess we all cry on about everyday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 The worst part of this deal for me is that we were after Johnson and we allowed Given to sign for them without using him as a bargaining chip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
polpolpol Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I think Given has made a mistake in leaving Newcastle. What is the common attribute of the keepers in the top three teams? Impeccable distribution. Footballing ability with the ball at feet, good throwing, an ability to read the game and know whether it is an appropriate time to bullet the ball to a winger on the half way line, or casually roll it out to a full back for possession-type football. Indeed, in two of these keepers - Van der Saar and Almunia - we have players who's only real ability is in this regard: neither are anything like as good a shot stopper as Shay. If Man City want to be a great team, they've bought the wrong player. Shay looked so good for us now because a shot stopper flourishes in a bad team; but when he has to start thinking about how to use the ball, rather than just being relieved the opposition attack has been temporarily dulled, what is he going to do? Shay is a % guy who works if you need to stop a high volume of opposition chances, but I don't think he has the distribution, concentration or presence to be a good keeper in a top quality team where the keeper has more touches with his feet than his hands. There will be fewer defenders around him so quantitatively more one-on-ones and close range shots; aspects in which he is relatively weaker. Can he learn? Keegan tried to get Shay to start playing it short and building from the back, but he never really did so well. He has this bizarre 'last minute' mentality whereby he makes a pressurised kick just before he's closed down rather than positively distributing the ball. Of course, the caveat there we haven't had a defender who an distribute the ball properly since Bramble (and there I apply the term defender loosely). In essence, the top 4 keeper is a big imposing footballer, rather than a shot, spry agile chap. What a load of BS that is, didn't finish reading it. Not bitter are we? Primary reason for buying a keeper - to stop shots. Given does that IMO the best in the league, and has been outstanding his entire time here. He therefore would be an outstanding addition to any side... O weren't we a top 4 side with him in the team i seem to remember. He wasn't good enough for us then? We should of signed van der Saar when he wasn't impressing at Fulham perhaps. (Please, read the whole of this post before you respond.) Ok, I suppose your effort could be an ironic post, but I'm past any idea of irony at this time of night so let's deal with it prima facie. Can I start by defining three (I guess if you want we could consider more, but give me a simplistic model of three now for convenience, please) types of goalkeeper move to stop the ball going in the net I'll start with shot stopping. I thought it was a fairly common term in the parlance of the fan, but I'll re-define it if it would help. Shot stopping is stopping an attempt on goal from a player who takes a shot from distance, appoximately greater than 15 yards. The key skills in shot stopping are 1) reading the player's body position to anticipate where he is kicking the ball and 2) having the reflex to make sure you use your anticipation of position at the last possible correct moment to to maximise your chance of stopping the ball (aka: that the guy is really kicking it that way). I think Given was really good at this – he certainly had a lot of shots taken against him. Maybe it was something to with the gap between our defence and midfield, I don't really know. Second: covering. This one I'd put down to positioning, size and a third factor that I'd call presence. The kind of attempts you'd stop by covering would be one-on-ones, or other close range chances. Essentially, you play it by the book, make yourself big and hope the other guy bottles it. Knowing where you are between the posts. I think this is a positive aspect of goalkeeping, where you scare the attacker rather than react to where he puts the ball. I'll tell you what, that chap Van der Saar I was talking about is pretty good at that. Much better than his shot stopping. Thing is, for a good team, with a high back line and which is usually attaching the opposition, the real danger isn't constant pressure, but the possibility of a counter attack. Most players that counter attack don't shoot from so far out, but advance on the goal. That makes covering a really good skill for a keeper in a top team. How about my third category: reflexes? This is having the ability to react at really close range, with almost no decision time, to where someone is putting a shot. A header, or a goalmouth scramble. I really thought Given was great at this. Superbly good. Thing is, you only tend to be involved in this kind of SNAFU if you are playing for a team performing poorly, not a team that wants to be in the top 4. Anyway, I'm going to be a bit cheeky here and suggest a fourth skill: using the ball in a positive way. This doesn't directly stop a shot but.. crazy as it might be, a lot of people think that if you have the ball, the other guys probably can't score. It might be that you start off a great attack with your distribution – like the keepers in the top three teams can, as I argued. Or maybe you just don't punt the ball out of play near the half way line like Given had a predilection to. Nevertheless, based on several years of watching Shay, that is my current hypothesis, so I leave it open to be shown true or false based on Given's performance for Man City (if they realise their promise). I don't think I can be any more bitter than that, can I? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Interesting posts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 If Given was worth more than what we sold him for we'd have got it from somewhere, fact is only City were interested. I also now believe Trappatoni's words a while back were used to pimp Given internationally by Given's 'lawyer'. Goodbye and good riddance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasy Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 How about my third category: reflexes? This is having the ability to react at really close range, with almost no decision time, to where someone is putting a shot. A header, or a goalmouth scramble. I really thought Given was great at this. Superbly good. Thing is, you only tend to be involved in this kind of SNAFU if you are playing for a team performing poorly, not a team that wants to be in the top 4. A keeper only ever needs to make reflex saves if there team is performing poorly? Doesn't make sense that like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasy Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 If Given was worth more than what we sold him for we'd have got it from somewhere, fact is only City were interested. I also now believe Trappatoni's words a while back were used to pimp Given internationally by Given's 'lawyer'. Goodbye and good riddance. Bellamy was only worth £5 million in 2005? Boumsong was worth £8 million? Just doesn't work that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Downplaying just how good Shay was seems like its being used as an excuse to get over him, when simply he was and is a world class goalkeeper in almost every way. He distribution was terrible for about half a season after the Harewood incision, but after that it was absolutely fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 If Given was worth more than what we sold him for we'd have got it from somewhere, fact is only City were interested. I also now believe Trappatoni's words a while back were used to pimp Given internationally by Given's 'lawyer'. Goodbye and good riddance. Bellamy was only worth £5 million in 2005? Boumsong was worth £8 million? Just doesn't work that way. Hindsight is useless in the market place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
polpolpol Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 How about my third category: reflexes? This is having the ability to react at really close range, with almost no decision time, to where someone is putting a shot. A header, or a goalmouth scramble. I really thought Given was great at this. Superbly good. Thing is, you only tend to be involved in this kind of SNAFU if you are playing for a team performing poorly, not a team that wants to be in the top 4. A keeper only ever needs to make reflex saves if there team is performing poorly? Doesn't make sense that like. Sorry, it might have been a little unclear. I'm defining a reflex save as one which is occurs at close range and has no element of prior positioning – essentially that a keeper has made a previous save and has to immediately make another one or, positioning wise, already has his eggs in the wrong basket. These are the kind of saves that keepers get lauded for, though they seldom occur. I accept they are made by all keepers, I think the problem is the ambiguity of the word tend – I meant it as 'indicative of a pattern which occurs' (a tendency), rather than 'can happen'. I take it as a save that keepers for worse teams have to make more of because 1) better teams (almost by definition) have more attacking opportunities and 2) relatively fewer times when they need to defend. The opposite applies for poorer teams. I'm struggling to find public domain statistics on this, but I am confident is saying that if you compare the quality and quantity of shots taken against the top 5 and bottom 5 teams you will see hella difference in where they are from, what preceded them, and how frequently the occur. However, such sophomoric attempts at building a goalkeeping model are secondary to my real point- the modern keeper for a good team is: big, imposing, an excellent distributor. The idea I can't “get over it” with Given is in utterly bad faith, I think that the historical/statistical patterns I'm referring to are pretty impersonal. That accusation stinks of projection. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Given's actions pushed the eventual fee downwards don't forget. Had he done things differently then we'd have sold him for an awful lot more than we were forced to settle for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest black n white Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I think Given has made a mistake in leaving Newcastle. What is the common attribute of the keepers in the top three teams? Impeccable distribution. Footballing ability with the ball at feet, good throwing, an ability to read the game and know whether it is an appropriate time to bullet the ball to a winger on the half way line, or casually roll it out to a full back for possession-type football. Indeed, in two of these keepers - Van der Saar and Almunia - we have players who's only real ability is in this regard: neither are anything like as good a shot stopper as Shay. If Man City want to be a great team, they've bought the wrong player. Shay looked so good for us now because a shot stopper flourishes in a bad team; but when he has to start thinking about how to use the ball, rather than just being relieved the opposition attack has been temporarily dulled, what is he going to do? Shay is a % guy who works if you need to stop a high volume of opposition chances, but I don't think he has the distribution, concentration or presence to be a good keeper in a top quality team where the keeper has more touches with his feet than his hands. There will be fewer defenders around him so quantitatively more one-on-ones and close range shots; aspects in which he is relatively weaker. Can he learn? Keegan tried to get Shay to start playing it short and building from the back, but he never really did so well. He has this bizarre 'last minute' mentality whereby he makes a pressurised kick just before he's closed down rather than positively distributing the ball. Of course, the caveat there we haven't had a defender who an distribute the ball properly since Bramble (and there I apply the term defender loosely). In essence, the top 4 keeper is a big imposing footballer, rather than a shot, spry agile chap. What a load of BS that is, didn't finish reading it. Not bitter are we? Primary reason for buying a keeper - to stop shots. Given does that IMO the best in the league, and has been outstanding his entire time here. He therefore would be an outstanding addition to any side... O weren't we a top 4 side with him in the team i seem to remember. He wasn't good enough for us then? We should of signed van der Saar when he wasn't impressing at Fulham perhaps. (Please, read the whole of this post before you respond.) Ok, I suppose your effort could be an ironic post, but I'm past any idea of irony at this time of night so let's deal with it prima facie. Can I start by defining three (I guess if you want we could consider more, but give me a simplistic model of three now for convenience, please) types of goalkeeper move to stop the ball going in the net I'll start with shot stopping. I thought it was a fairly common term in the parlance of the fan, but I'll re-define it if it would help. Shot stopping is stopping an attempt on goal from a player who takes a shot from distance, appoximately greater than 15 yards. The key skills in shot stopping are 1) reading the player's body position to anticipate where he is kicking the ball and 2) having the reflex to make sure you use your anticipation of position at the last possible correct moment to to maximise your chance of stopping the ball (aka: that the guy is really kicking it that way). I think Given was really good at this – he certainly had a lot of shots taken against him. Maybe it was something to with the gap between our defence and midfield, I don't really know. Second: covering. This one I'd put down to positioning, size and a third factor that I'd call presence. The kind of attempts you'd stop by covering would be one-on-ones, or other close range chances. Essentially, you play it by the book, make yourself big and hope the other guy bottles it. Knowing where you are between the posts. I think this is a positive aspect of goalkeeping, where you scare the attacker rather than react to where he puts the ball. I'll tell you what, that chap Van der Saar I was talking about is pretty good at that. Much better than his shot stopping. Thing is, for a good team, with a high back line and which is usually attaching the opposition, the real danger isn't constant pressure, but the possibility of a counter attack. Most players that counter attack don't shoot from so far out, but advance on the goal. That makes covering a really good skill for a keeper in a top team. How about my third category: reflexes? This is having the ability to react at really close range, with almost no decision time, to where someone is putting a shot. A header, or a goalmouth scramble. I really thought Given was great at this. Superbly good. Thing is, you only tend to be involved in this kind of SNAFU if you are playing for a team performing poorly, not a team that wants to be in the top 4. Anyway, I'm going to be a bit cheeky here and suggest a fourth skill: using the ball in a positive way. This doesn't directly stop a shot but.. crazy as it might be, a lot of people think that if you have the ball, the other guys probably can't score. It might be that you start off a great attack with your distribution – like the keepers in the top three teams can, as I argued. Or maybe you just don't punt the ball out of play near the half way line like Given had a predilection to. Nevertheless, based on several years of watching Shay, that is my current hypothesis, so I leave it open to be shown true or false based on Given's performance for Man City (if they realise their promise). I don't think I can be any more bitter than that, can I? What about harper? (I for one hope that his confidence isnt affected by all this shit) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The club's actions or lack thereof initiated the events that led to this transfer don't forget. Had we done things differently then we'd not have had to sell him for any amount in the world. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrette Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The club's actions or lack thereof initiated the events that led to this transfer don't forget. Had we done things differently then we'd not have had to sell him for any amount in the world. That's not the point. It's a different one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The club's actions or lack thereof initiated the events that led to this transfer don't forget. Had we done things differently then we'd not have had to sell him for any amount in the world. Had Given (and his lawyer) kept his mouth shut do you think we'd have got more or less than £6m for him? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliMag Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 What about Harper indeed. The only true run he has ever had in the team was under Gullit in 1998-1999 and under Robson when Shay was injured and coming back from injury in 2000. The times we have seen Harper he has been pretty good. Gullit prefered him to Shay because his distribution and kicking was better (It is important to note that Gullit didn't rate either and brought in Jon Karelse while trying to offload both. ) - Shay worked very hard on his kicking for the past eight years and does tend to keep the ball as long as possible leaving his options for distribution invariably long. I think Shay became cautious because he has usually been "protected" by terrible defenders and was probably emotionally scarred by the Dion Dublin incident at Villa Park years back. Harper does indeed seem to want to put the ball back in play as soon as possible and is not afraid of playing it short to a fullback ASAP. Harper also seems louder than Shay. For our needs though - a reflexive stop after sloppy defending is of highest importance (because we suck) and unfortunately Shay was probably the best in the League at that skill. Harper has also had more training as an outfield player, and since these are desperate times, he will hopefully do better than Shay when we pull him up for corners in the 90th minute when we are trailing by a goal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 What about Harper indeed. The only true run he has ever had in the team was under Gullit in 1998-1999 and under Robson when Shay was injured and coming back from injury in 2000. The times we have seen Harper he has been pretty good. Gullit prefered him to Shay because his distribution and kicking was better (It is important to note that Gullit didn't rate either and brought in Jon Karelse while trying to offload both. ) - Shay worked very hard on his kicking for the past eight years and does tend to keep the ball as long as possible leaving his options for distribution invariably long. I think Shay became cautious because he has usually been "protected" by terrible defenders and was probably emotionally scarred by the Dion Dublin incident at Villa Park years back. Harper does indeed seem to want to put the ball back in play as soon as possible and is not afraid of playing it short to a fullback ASAP. Harper also seems louder than Shay. For our needs though - a reflexive stop after sloppy defending is of highest importance (because we suck) and unfortunately Shay was probably the best in the League at that skill. Harper has also had more training as an outfield player, and since these are desperate times, he will hopefully do better than Shay when we pull him up for corners in the 90th minute when we are trailing by a goal. He's more than proven that he's good enough to be the number one of a Premiership team. I think we'll do just fine with him. I for one am proud to have him between our posts. Bit of a luxury for us to hang on to both for so long, to be honest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Amazing that the knee problem that he had has cleared up now he has moved to Citeh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Just been on SSN; "I felt Newcastle could have dealt with it a little bit better, to be honest," "I spent nearly 12 years of my life there, and that's a long time. I want to thank the fans for the support they've given me over the years. They're absolutely phenomenal. "But this is a new challenge, and a new set of supporters to try and impress. "I'd been there nearly 12 years, and with the service I'd given the club, I felt the regime could have dealt with it a little better. "I was disappointed with the way the regime handled it. "It's a difficult time for Newcastle. They're going through a difficult period, and the fans deserve better. They're extremely loyal supporters up there. "They want the club to be firing up the league, and I wish them well. "The Liverpool game was a real kick in the teeth. It was a low point in my career, and a low point for everyone. "I wasn't very comfortable with the way the club was - I wanted to be challenging for silverware, but I didn't know if I was going to leave the club. "I'll be forever grateful for what (the fans) have done for me in my career, but I felt the regime were very unhelpful." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now