Interpolic Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 It is and it isn't his fault. It's an illness. Plenty on AA's website about this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I don't know a whole lot on the matter like, but I don't see how you can look at an alcoholic and say that it's not their fault. Because it's the simplistic reasoning of a caveman who thinks cause and effect occurs in a vacuum and doesn't want to consider it a disease that can interfere with otherwise rational and normal brains. 'Fault' or blame implies choice and forethought, so it's effectively saying someone has chosen to destroy their life by willfully becoming be an alcoholic, which is absurd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 It is and it isn't his fault. It's an illness. Plenty on AA's website about this. I didn't mean that it is strictly and only his fault. It's that some people above are suggesting that it isn't his fault at all which isn't true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 No fault of his own ffs. Christ. Don't take this personally, but you're everything that's wrong with the world. I love imagining Ian as Corbyn and Ron as Cameron during PMQs when I read stuff like this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I don't know a whole lot on the matter like, but I don't see how you can look at an alcoholic and say that it's not their fault. Because it's the simplistic reasoning of a caveman who thinks cause and effect occurs in a vacuum and doesn't want to consider it a disease that can interfere with otherwise rational and normal brains. 'Fault' or blame implies choice and forethought, so it's effectively saying someone has chosen to destroy their life by willfully becoming be an alcoholic, which is absurd. In my opinion there is always a point of no return, and you always have a point before that where you can logically think to yourself, "I'm in serious danger of losing control here. I need to stop this before it goes further." I don't think it's simplistic reasoning at all to suggest that alcoholics need to shoulder at least some of the blame for allowing themselves to go past the point of no return. EDIT: I should also mention that I felt like that once. It isn't ignorant thinking of my behalf. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I dunno how someone can say that someone is at fault for being an alcoholic as if they've chosen that as the road they want to go down. Yes, turning to alcohol and allowing it to get to the point of being an alcoholic is foolish and there's enough evidence to suggest that everyone should have the common sense to know when to nip it in the bud and exercise restraint, but once it's an addiction it's exactly that and free will and restraint are obviously a lot harder. Gazza's circumstances are extremely unique and I would imagine make it a lot harder to go sober. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Duper Branko Strupar Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I can understand people thinking he's a lost cause like but there's no need to be a dick about it It's proper sad what's happened to the bloke whether it's his fault or not, or whether others have had it worse than him before or after he got there. Some people in here are furious. Insulted, ffs "He's lying to us". What? An addict in denial? Never. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Yes, turning to alcohol and allowing it to get to the point of being an alcoholic is foolish and there's enough evidence to suggest that everyone should have the common sense to know when to nip it in the bud and exercise restraint. This is the point I'm trying to put across albeit poorly. Anything else after this I have no experience of and have no place to comment. When I say it's his fault, I mean he has to take the blame of allowing it to get to the point of being an alcoholic. It is, like you said, foolish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 No fault of his own ffs. Christ. Don't take this personally, but you're everything that's wrong with the world. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sima Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 No fault of his own ffs. Christ. Don't take this personally, but you're everything that's wrong with the world. http://media.tumblr.com/937eb26e246150519765efd589cddac9/tumblr_inline_nhq0nxukj01r8pzfe.gif Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomson Mouse Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I don't know a whole lot on the matter like, but I don't see how you can look at an alcoholic and say that it's not their fault. Because it's the simplistic reasoning of a caveman who thinks cause and effect occurs in a vacuum and doesn't want to consider it a disease that can interfere with otherwise rational and normal brains. 'Fault' or blame implies choice and forethought, so it's effectively saying someone has chosen to destroy their life by willfully becoming be an alcoholic, which is absurd. Exactly. They guy has it least one mental health problem as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Yes, turning to alcohol and allowing it to get to the point of being an alcoholic is foolish and there's enough evidence to suggest that everyone should have the common sense to know when to nip it in the bud and exercise restraint. This is the point I'm trying to put across albeit poorly. Anything else after this I have no experience of and have no place to comment. When I say it's his fault, I mean he has to take the blame of allowing it to get to the point of being an alcoholic. It is, like you said, foolish. But factors are driving him to that point too no? Like escaping whatever he feels like when he's sober. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Yeah, without a doubt. I don't blame him at all at this stage really, it's easy to point the finger when you have no experience of mental health problems or alcoholism and only see it from an inexperienced perspective. He's he's just not completely and utterly blameless in that he's been foolishly self destructive in the beginning of the slippery slope imo, but that's hardly unique to him. I don't think that's a particularly radical opinion and one that he's admitted to himself. It's not really relevant anymore though, because that's long gone and he's been an addict for years and it'll get harder and harder with each relapse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foluwashola Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 No fault of his own ffs. Christ. Don't take this personally, but you're everything that's wrong with the world. I love imagining Ian as Corbyn and Ron as Cameron during PMQs when I read stuff like this. Aye. Neither of them can be a real person like. Politically correct bot v Tory bigot bot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Honestly though, don't know how anyone can say that his, or indeed anyone's alcoholism is no fault of their own Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie1892 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I can understand people thinking he's a lost cause like but there's no need to be a dick about it It's proper sad what's happened to the bloke whether it's his fault or not, or whether others have had it worse than him before or after he got there. Some people in here are furious. Insulted, ffs "He's lying to us". What? An addict in denial? Never. The fact he's in denial doesn't make me angry. What does irk me is that he's been giving it '11 months clean and everyone jumps on me for this blip'. Does anyone like being taken for a fool? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Why is everyone so desperate to apportion fault? Is it appealing because it becomes easier to justify a "fuck him" stance once you can say he's at fault? "Nah I'm not a heartless bastard; he did it to himself, so fuck him." What's the appeal. What does it change? Fine, he's 100% at fault. He woke up one morning, said "I'd like to destroy my life" and then did it, which, as an aside, kudos to him for coming up with a plan and sticking to it. Where does that put you now? No sympathy? No compassion? Want to see him lying in a gutter choking on his own vomit? What. Does. Fault. Accomplish. Here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Why is everyone so desperate to apportion fault? Is it appealing because it becomes easier to justify a "fuck him" stance once you can say he's at fault? "Nah I'm not a heartless bastard; he did it to himself, so fuck him." What's the appeal. What does it change? Fine, he's 100% at fault. He woke up one morning, said "I'd like to destroy my life" and then did it, which, as an aside, kudos to him for coming up with a plan and sticking to it. Where does that put you now? No sympathy? No compassion? Want to see him lying in a gutter choking on his own vomit? What. Does. Fault. Accomplish. Here. Well I wasn't suggesting any of that, just saying that people saying he's not at fault is wrong. Also what does absolving him of blame accomplish here? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie1892 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Why is everyone so desperate to apportion fault? Is it appealing because it becomes easier to justify a "f*** him" stance once you can say he's at fault? "Nah I'm not a heartless b******; he did it to himself, so f*** him." What's the appeal. What does it change? Fine, he's 100% at fault. He woke up one morning, said "I'd like to destroy my life" and then did it, which, as an aside, kudos to him for coming up with a plan and sticking to it. Where does that put you now? No sympathy? No compassion? Want to see him lying in a gutter choking on his own vomit? What. Does. Fault. Accomplish. Here. I think there's a lot of people who DO care (and many who do not) but are struggling with their sympathies. I don't blame Gascoigne at all, as I know from personal experience that alcoholism is a fearsome beast. When my grandfather - who had been a very high achiever in WWII and for the Crown Agents thereafter - retired, he started drinking out of boredom. And booze killed him. I suspect that boredom has played a big part in Gascoigne's current condition. i.e., he was alcoholic 20 years ago at Rangers, but it's got immeasurably worse since he hung up his boots (or, anecdotally, was unable to tie them up when he was playing for that Chinese club). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Why is everyone so desperate to apportion fault? Is it appealing because it becomes easier to justify a "fuck him" stance once you can say he's at fault? "Nah I'm not a heartless bastard; he did it to himself, so fuck him." What's the appeal. What does it change? Fine, he's 100% at fault. He woke up one morning, said "I'd like to destroy my life" and then did it, which, as an aside, kudos to him for coming up with a plan and sticking to it. Where does that put you now? No sympathy? No compassion? Want to see him lying in a gutter choking on his own vomit? What. Does. Fault. Accomplish. Here. Well I wasn't suggesting any of that, just saying that people saying he's not at fault is wrong. Also what does absolving him of blame accomplish here? Blame is pointless. It doesn't help. I don't see it as absolving more like ignoring. I just don't care. Help should be available regardless as well as basic human compassion. In my opinion a discussion about blame is just so meaningless to the situation of a human suffering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 No fault of his own ffs. Christ. Don't take this personally, but you're everything that's wrong with the world. Yeah, demonstrating belief in one's ability to control and suppress destructive urges is everything that's wrong, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Why is everyone so desperate to apportion fault? Is it appealing because it becomes easier to justify a "f*** him" stance once you can say he's at fault? "Nah I'm not a heartless b******; he did it to himself, so f*** him." What's the appeal. What does it change? Fine, he's 100% at fault. He woke up one morning, said "I'd like to destroy my life" and then did it, which, as an aside, kudos to him for coming up with a plan and sticking to it. Where does that put you now? No sympathy? No compassion? Want to see him lying in a gutter choking on his own vomit? What. Does. Fault. Accomplish. Here. I think there's a lot of people who DO care (and many who do not) but are struggling with their sympathies. I don't blame Gascoigne at all, as I know from personal experience that alcoholism is a fearsome beast. When my grandfather - who had been a very high achiever in WWII and for the Crown Agents thereafter - retired, he started drinking out of boredom. And booze killed him. I suspect that boredom has played a big part in Gascoigne's current condition. i.e., he was alcoholic 20 years ago at Rangers, but it's got immeasurably worse since he hung up his boots (or, anecdotally, was unable to tie them up when he was playing for that Chinese club). Aye, I get that people's emotional wells aren't bottomless, and I know first hand as well that you can and do get numb to the sight of someone continuously slipping off the straight and narrow. It's incredibly tough. It just felt like blame is being used as a way of justifying that numbness. I just don't think it's needed. You don't have to actually blame anyone to justify saying "you know what, I can't do this." Anyone can get to that point and sometimes the best thing is just to sever. But blame just feels accusatory and judgemental and entirely unhelpful and unproductive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggs Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I can understand people thinking he's a lost cause like but there's no need to be a dick about it It's proper sad what's happened to the bloke whether it's his fault or not, or whether others have had it worse than him before or after he got there. Some people in here are furious. Insulted, ffs "He's lying to us". What? An addict in denial? Never. The fact he's in denial doesn't make me angry. What does irk me is that he's been giving it '11 months clean and everyone jumps on me for this blip'. Does anyone like being taken for a fool? have you any idea about alcholism ? as a alchoholic you have a blip every now and again its part and parcel of the recovery and my wife works in that field and has been on courses given by experts ,im not getting at you so dont take it personal but it is not a easy thing to rid yourself of as you can imagine but the lad has as eveyone is aware huge problems to overcome and his family by all accounts seem to do fuck all to help him Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie1892 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I can understand people thinking he's a lost cause like but there's no need to be a dick about it It's proper sad what's happened to the bloke whether it's his fault or not, or whether others have had it worse than him before or after he got there. Some people in here are furious. Insulted, ffs "He's lying to us". What? An addict in denial? Never. The fact he's in denial doesn't make me angry. What does irk me is that he's been giving it '11 months clean and everyone jumps on me for this blip'. Does anyone like being taken for a fool? have you any idea about alcoholism ? as a alcoholic you have a blip every now and again its part and parcel of the recovery and my wife works in that field and has been on courses given by experts ,im not getting at you so don't take it personal but it is not a easy thing to rid yourself of as you can imagine but the lad has as everyone is aware huge problems to overcome and his family by all accounts seem to do f*** all to help him Yes, as I mentioned above, it killed my grandfather - in front of my eyes; as it happened, as I was living with my grandparents at the time during my 'gap yah'. So I reckon I have a handle on it, in addition to volunteering for my local Council teaching basic literacy in 2010-11 to a class which was, judging by the smell and pupil interaction, about 40-50% alcoholic. I make no claim to being an expert, but I would claim to be more than a layman. Funnily enough, when I was living with my grandparents (before my grandfather's liver gave up) in Pyrford, I somehow found myself going out with a girl whose dad was a sports lawyer. Through him, we got tickets for a sports dinner at The Grosvenor and Gascoigne was at our table. The 'journalist' Harry Harris was also at our table and when HH went for a leak, Gazza decided to as well - into the pitcher of lager that Harris was topping up from. No-one said a word and, boy, did I get it in the neck from my then girlfriend later on for not saying anything... I'd earlier tried to talk to Gascoigne about NUFC when he turned up but, even on arrival, he was so drunk he could barely speak. Anyway, I digress. I don't take what you say personally in any way - this subject is a hell of a lot bigger than you or I - but when you mention his family, saying: 'by all accounts [they] seem to do f*** all to help him' then I would have to agree. In agreeing with you I am not casting aspersions on his family, but I wonder who among them is qualified/capable to help him? For me, it's clearly a job for professionals, but Gascoigne hasn't even met them half way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I can understand people thinking he's a lost cause like but there's no need to be a dick about it It's proper sad what's happened to the bloke whether it's his fault or not, or whether others have had it worse than him before or after he got there. Some people in here are furious. Insulted, ffs "He's lying to us". What? An addict in denial? Never. The fact he's in denial doesn't make me angry. What does irk me is that he's been giving it '11 months clean and everyone jumps on me for this blip'. Does anyone like being taken for a fool? have you any idea about alcoholism ? as a alcoholic you have a blip every now and again its part and parcel of the recovery and my wife works in that field and has been on courses given by experts ,im not getting at you so don't take it personal but it is not a easy thing to rid yourself of as you can imagine but the lad has as everyone is aware huge problems to overcome and his family by all accounts seem to do f*** all to help him Funnily enough, when I was living with my grandparents (before my grandfather's liver gave up) in Pyrford, I somehow found myself going out with a girl whose dad was a sports lawyer. Through him, we got tickets for a sports dinner at The Grosvenor and Gascoigne was at our table. The 'journalist' Harry Harris was also at our table and when HH went for a leak, Gazza decided to as well - into the pitcher of lager that Harris was topping up from. No-one said a word and, boy, did I get it in the neck from my then girlfriend later on for not saying anything... I'm a bit surprised by that story. I've never been in that precise situation, but why didn't anyone say or do anything? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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