The old Chris Hughton discussion thread

[80]

If Hughton gets the praise when the team does well, people need to understand that he'll get criticism when they do badly - especially when the reason we failed to beat Stoke and Wigan were because of mistakes on the coaching team's part.

 

Spot on Jonny.  Seems it doesn't work like that though.

 

What if you take the view that most of the club is set up for failure and anything better which seems to stem from him which is better than that can be considered virtually supererogatory?

 

This 'balanced, sensible' view that some people seem to have that victory should bring praise and defeat should bring criticism and pressure is dumb to reality. It doesn't take into account the context of any of the events under analysis and it doesn't help achieve what we presumably actually want which is ultimate success.

 

I think it's more that people at one end of the scale think he shouldn't be criticised or held accountable at all tbh.

 

Who?

 

Anyone saying he shouldn't be under pressure tbh, of which there are quite a few.

 

The nature of the job he is paid for means if things aren't going well, he should be under pressure.  At home we've had three very poor results on the bounce against three of the poorest sides in the division, that definately deserves criticism.

 

He therefore deserves to be under pressure.  Not to the extent of wanting him sacked mind.

 

What sort of pressure and why? What do you think the pressure will achieve for us? Do you think he'll do a better job if everyone knows he'll be out if the next four games don't go in his favour?

 

Being held accountable and being pressurised are two different things, by the way. Related but not indivisible. Having major reasons for a defeat attributed to things that are in your power and fairly clearly should have been different is being reasonably held accountable, having people raising the pitch, getting hysterical and talking about 'consequences' if things don't change, with only all the negative ifs and buts regarding your future decisions being focused upon is being pressurised.

 

I don't even agree with the premise that it's the nature of a team manager's job that if things aren't going well he should be under pressure. He isn't fully the master of his own destiny. He isn't the policy setter. All football managers are managed - by their board. Some things he does control, and if he controls them badly then he should be held accountable. But badness doesn't necessarily equal a failing football manager, the buck really doesn't stop with him.

 

I take the point that major scrutiny is required given our recent home results - I've said so elsewhere previously, they're pretty concerning. All the same, it's probably worth us all remembering the other results these teams and other supposedly shit teams have been getting this season. Us, WBA, Stoke, Wigan and Blackpool have got unexpectedly good results against Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea (not us, by the way), Tottenham (twice), Villa (twice), Man City (twice), Everton and Liverpool. You can even throw in results between themselves (Wigan 0 Blackpool 4, nevermind our upsets etc...). It's a strange season, inconsistent in nature.

[Liam Liam Liam O]

If Hughton gets the praise when the team does well, people need to understand that he'll get criticism when they do badly - especially when the reason we failed to beat Stoke and Wigan were because of mistakes on the coaching team's part.

 

Spot on Jonny.  Seems it doesn't work like that though.

 

What if you take the view that most of the club is set up for failure and anything better which seems to stem from him which is better than that can be considered virtually supererogatory?

 

This 'balanced, sensible' view that some people seem to have that victory should bring praise and defeat should bring criticism and pressure is dumb to reality. It doesn't take into account the context of any of the events under analysis and it doesn't help achieve what we presumably actually want which is ultimate success.

 

I think it's more that people at one end of the scale think he shouldn't be criticised or held accountable at all tbh.

 

Who?

 

Anyone saying he shouldn't be under pressure tbh, of which there are quite a few.

 

The nature of the job he is paid for means if things aren't going well, he should be under pressure.  At home we've had three very poor results on the bounce against three of the poorest sides in the division, that definately deserves criticism.

 

He therefore deserves to be under pressure.  Not to the extent of wanting him sacked mind.

 

What sort of pressure and why? What do you think the pressure will achieve for us? Do you think he'll do a better job if everyone knows he'll be out if the next four games don't go in his favour?

 

Being held accountable and being pressurised are two different things, by the way. Related but not indivisible. Having major reasons for a defeat attributed to things that are in your power and fairly clearly should have been different is being reasonably held accountable, having people raising the pitch, getting hysterical and talking about 'consequences' if things don't change, with only all the negative ifs and buts regarding your future decisions being focused upon is being pressurised.

 

I don't even agree with the premise that it's the nature of a team manager's job that if things aren't going well he should be under pressure. He isn't fully the master of his own destiny. He isn't the policy setter. All football managers are managed - by their board. Some things he does control, and if he controls them badly then he should be held accountable. But badness doesn't necessarily equal a failing football manager, the buck really doesn't stop with him.

 

I take the point that major scrutiny is required given our recent home results - I've said so elsewhere previously, they're pretty concerning. All the same, it's probably worth us all remembering the other results these teams and other supposedly shit teams have been getting this season. Us, WBA, Stoke, Wigan and Blackpool have got unexpectedly good results against Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea (not us, by the way), Tottenham (twice), Villa (twice), Man City (twice), Everton and Liverpool. You can even throw in results between themselves (Wigan 0 Blackpool 4, nevermind our upsets etc...). It's a strange season, inconsistent in nature.

 

I think you're over-analysing it.

[jdckelly]

more shit stirring this time by bird

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Joe-Kinnear-could-be-set-for-a-sensational-as-Newcastle-manager-with-Chris-Hughton-fighting-to-save-his-job-article606085.html

[Pilko]

Nolan as player-coach :lol: :lol:

[Dave]

more shit stirring this time by bird

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Joe-Kinnear-could-be-set-for-a-sensational-as-Newcastle-manager-with-Chris-Hughton-fighting-to-save-his-job-article606085.html

 

Which came from this: http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/sport/newcastle-united/nufc-news/2010/10/10/kinnear-would-love-toon-comeback-harford-79310-27439092/

 

I highly doubt there's even the slightest bit of truth in this and frankly the journalists in question should be ashamed of themselves for perpetuating it.

[Jamie]

I think hes a member on here

[Kaizero]

While on the subject of Kinnear, Solbakken (Copenhagen manager and Wimbledon player 97-98) was asked at the CL press conferece at Camp Nou today if he'd "learnt anything from his time in England", to which he replied: "There were no tactics at Wimbledon, so no."

[Liam Liam Liam O]

Nolan as player-coach :lol: :lol:

 

Just remember who kept telling you it was happening when it does actually happen.

[BottledDog]

We pass the ball around fine, we just can't ever seem to find that creative spark to unlock a defence.  I would say the football is better than what we saw under Fat Sam.

 

Which is why Ben Arfas injury is such a monumental kick in the knackers for Hughton and all of us this season.

[merlin]

The situation now is a hell of a lot different than it was when Ardiles was boss. We're not in a position to offer anybody the kind of money Keegan was given to spend, and everybody else is spending that kind of money too.

 

Keegan only had 250,000 to spend(and that was SJH's personal money used to buy Kilcline) when he arrived at SJP, and 3 months to stop the club plunging into the 3rd Div...how does your reasoning stand up ? KK had to keep the club in the 2nd Div AND stop it going bust before he could start rebuilding the side...and in addition, how much do you think he spent getting the club promoted ? Before he signed Andy Cole and Scott Sellars in late Feb 1993, he had only bought Beresford and Venison for around 500,000.

KK only started spending big in 94/95 and that was when the club was making huge progress on and off the field.

We here are talking about keeping the club in the PL., not building a title-chasing side and a club of this size should be quite able to do that...as should a decent manager given a modicum of support by the board.

[cubaricho]

To be fair, comparing what KK did in the 90s and what Hughton has to deal with now is like apples and oranges.  Two totally different climates in football.

[merlin]

The situation now is a hell of a lot different than it was when Ardiles was boss. We're not in a position to offer anybody the kind of money Keegan was given to spend, and everybody else is spending that kind of money too.

 

Keegan only had 250,000 to spend(and that was SJH's personal money used to buy Kilcline) when he arrived at SJP, and 3 months to stop the club plunging into the 3rd Div...how does your reasoning stand up ? KK had to keep the club in the 2nd Div AND stop it going bust before he could start rebuilding the side...and in addition, how much do you think he spent getting the club promoted ? Before he signed Andy Cole and Scott Sellars in late Feb 1993, he had only bought Beresford and Venison for around 500,000.

KK only started spending big in 94/95 and that was when the club was making huge progress on and off the field.

We here are talking about keeping the club in the PL., not building a title-chasing side and a club of this size should be quite able to do that...as should a decent manager given a modicum of support by the board.

 

To be fair, I have looked back at KK's promotion signings and he actually spent 1.8m until signing Cole and Sellars late in the season...Beresford was actually 650,000, Venison and Bracewell 250,000 ; Lee came in October

for 700,000.

When you consider how much Coloccini and Enrique cost alone in the current side, and that KKs promotion team only needed a couple of players added to finish 3rd in the PL, you can see that even after 18 years he still got value for money.

 

I disagree that you cannot compare the 2 eras - yes, the club displayed more ambition under SJH than Ashley, but when you compare the cost of the current side you can hardly say they are great value...Williamson and Tiote maybe, but Barton...?? How about Jonas compared to Rob Lee..or Andy Cole with ANY of the current strike force ?

[cubaricho]

I'm talking about football in general.  Very different climates, expectations, and above all, gulfs in class.  You could go from Div 2 -> top 3 finish in the First Division in those days.  These days, never.

[Segun Oluwaniyi]

Comparing prices from the early nineties to prices from 2010, is a stupid and futile exercise imo. So much has changed.

[ohmelads]

Houllier put it well recently in an interview, saying there are two things in football, performances and results.

 

For years we have had poor performances but scraped a few wins and survived. Souness's team played some abysmal football but he had the luxury of a couple of matchwinners in his squad who could pull out a result for him. It's the other way round this time if you ask me, our football is decent but we lack the forwards to turn performances into results. They're often the most expensive players because they will do that for you. Hughton has lost his best forward player. Look at our bench man. You can talk about tactics all day but Ameobi is Ameobi and Lovenkrands is Lovenkrands. Carroll hardly has any Premier League goals in his career yet he is our main hope. Until January, and possibly the end of the season, this is our lot and yeah, we'll struggle. Mourinho would struggle with this squad.

 

Do you really want to roll the dice again with Ashley calling the shots? The same man who appointed Joe Kinnear, the same man who you know will not pay up for a top manager even if we could attract one? The same owner who sold players for profit as the club fought relegation? I thoroughly believe Ashley's aim is bare survival and he wants rid of the club - his actions back that up.

 

Stick with Hughton and I believe we'll survive but it won't be comfortable. Maybe 15th or so, higher if he has some funds in January to strengthen. Let Ashley bring in any random manager and I could see us going down to be honest.

[cubaricho]

Houllier put it well recently in an interview, saying there are two things in football, performances and results.

 

For years we have had poor performances but scraped a few wins and survived. Souness's team played some abysmal football but he had the luxury of a couple of matchwinners in his squad who could pull out a result for him. It's the other way round this time if you ask me, our football is decent but we lack the forwards to turn performances into results. They're often the most expensive players because they will do that for you. Hughton has lost his best forward player. Look at our bench man. You can talk about tactics all day but Ameobi is Ameobi and Lovenkrands is Lovenkrands. Carroll hardly has any Premier League goals in his career yet he is our main hope. Until January, and possibly the end of the season, this is our lot and yeah, we'll struggle. Mourinho would struggle with this squad.

 

Do you really want to roll the dice again with Ashley calling the shots? The same man who appointed Joe Kinnear, the same man who you know will not pay up for a top manager even if we could attract one? The same owner who sold players for profit as the club fought relegation? I thoroughly believe Ashley's aim is bare survival and he wants rid of the club - his actions back that up.

 

Stick with Hughton and I believe we'll survive but it won't be comfortable. Maybe 15th or so, higher if he has some funds in January to strengthen. Let Ashley bring in any random manager and I could see us going down to be honest.

 

I feel pretty much entirely this way.  Changing managers is not the correct option at this point.  Let's get some players in during the next window and go from there.  We won't be dead in the water come January so there's no need to panic.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Houllier put it well recently in an interview, saying there are two things in football, performances and results.

 

For years we have had poor performances but scraped a few wins and survived. Souness's team played some abysmal football but he had the luxury of a couple of matchwinners in his squad who could pull out a result for him. It's the other way round this time if you ask me, our football is decent but we lack the forwards to turn performances into results. They're often the most expensive players because they will do that for you. Hughton has lost his best forward player. Look at our bench man. You can talk about tactics all day but Ameobi is Ameobi and Lovenkrands is Lovenkrands. Carroll hardly has any Premier League goals in his career yet he is our main hope. Until January, and possibly the end of the season, this is our lot and yeah, we'll struggle. Mourinho would struggle with this squad.

 

Do you really want to roll the dice again with Ashley calling the shots? The same man who appointed Joe Kinnear, the same man who you know will not pay up for a top manager even if we could attract one? The same owner who sold players for profit as the club fought relegation? I thoroughly believe Ashley's aim is bare survival and he wants rid of the club - his actions back that up.

 

Stick with Hughton and I believe we'll survive but it won't be comfortable. Maybe 15th or so, higher if he has some funds in January to strengthen. Let Ashley bring in any random manager and I could see us going down to be honest.

 

Very sensible post... at this point it's just that bit of quality that we're missing. Ben Arfa would have provided it, now we need to reach into the wallet again to make us more confident of survival.

 

For me Hughton has done a very good job, 3 or 4 dodgy results is nowhere near enough to change that view.

[Disco]

Routledge will come back. He needs to focus on working the channels more as opposed to hugging the touchline. Usually there's nobody waiting for that cross so he hesitates and gives himself an extra man to beat. Thought he was very good against Wolves and Everton.

 

Agreed, he has made himself very easy to mark in his last few starts. He has to play though because his presence on the fields means teams can't put so many men against Jose and Jonas unlike when Guthrie/Barton/whoever else starts out on the right.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Routledge will come back. He needs to focus on working the channels more as opposed to hugging the touchline. Usually there's nobody waiting for that cross so he hesitates and gives himself an extra man to beat. Thought he was very good against Wolves and Everton.

 

Agreed, he has made himself very easy to mark in his last few starts. He has to play though because his presence on the fields means teams can't put so many men against Jose and Jonas unlike when Guthrie/Barton/whoever else starts out on the right.

 

Totally agree with this, it's so obvious to see that we don't look the same team without a right winger to take some pressure off the lads on the left.

 

There's no debate worth having really, Routledge is the only player we have capable of doing that job to a decent level.

 

[SEMTEX]

But he loses the ball sometimes and can't cross! I'd much prefer someone who wanders in field and adds nothing to the team.

 

[Disco]

But he loses the ball sometimes and can't cross! I'd much prefer someone who wanders in field and adds nothing to the team.

 

 

At least if he does that the onrushing right full back is good going forward...good defensively...good at picking up bookings.

[WarrenBartonCentrePartin]

tweeted Bird about that story, saying surely its bollocks, didn't get a reply directly, but he's just tweeted

 

simonbirdmirror

Club confirmed no truth in kinnear rumours yest but that was chopped out of paper story today. Hughton safe for now but needs results #nufc

 

 

pretty much admitting he was going to have a load of bullshit printed?

[merlin]

Houllier put it well recently in an interview, saying there are two things in football, performances and results.

 

For years we have had poor performances but scraped a few wins and survived. Souness's team played some abysmal football but he had the luxury of a couple of matchwinners in his squad who could pull out a result for him. It's the other way round this time if you ask me, our football is decent but we lack the forwards to turn performances into results. They're often the most expensive players because they will do that for you. Hughton has lost his best forward player. Look at our bench man. You can talk about tactics all day but Ameobi is Ameobi and Lovenkrands is Lovenkrands. Carroll hardly has any Premier League goals in his career yet he is our main hope. Until January, and possibly the end of the season, this is our lot and yeah, we'll struggle. Mourinho would struggle with this squad.

 

Do you really want to roll the dice again with Ashley calling the shots? The same man who appointed Joe Kinnear, the same man who you know will not pay up for a top manager even if we could attract one? The same owner who sold players for profit as the club fought relegation? I thoroughly believe Ashley's aim is bare survival and he wants rid of the club - his actions back that up.

 

Stick with Hughton and I believe we'll survive but it won't be comfortable. Maybe 15th or so, higher if he has some funds in January to strengthen. Let Ashley bring in any random manager and I could see us going down to be honest.

 

Much of what you say is common sense - as I said in an earlier post, there is no point in firing the manager unless a better one is available to the club and clearly, it is unlikely to happen if Ashley is unwilling to provide him with a decent budget. Nevertheless, I am unconvinced that Hughton IS going to be able to keep the club up - whether someone else could do it is a moot point because we are unlikely to find out unless we lose a few more games on the trot.

However, if we are waiting for Ashley to sell the club before we make progress, we will wait an awful long time...nobody with big bucks has shown the slightest interest in buying it and unless we stay up this season, nobody will in the near future.

 

How long many fans are prepared to wait while the club struggles on for several seasons I do not know - after all, there are going to be plenty of people who will be trying to save money in the current financial climate and if crowds drop the club becomes even less attractive. Relegation this season would kill interest for many supporters and would act as a further deterrent to would be buyers, so it is critical that we stay up.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

tweeted Bird about that story, saying surely its bollocks, didn't get a reply directly, but he's just tweeted

 

simonbirdmirror

Club confirmed no truth in kinnear rumours yest but that was chopped out of paper story today. Hughton safe for now but needs results #nufc

 

 

pretty much admitting he was going to have a load of bullshit printed?

 

Pretty much. This is what he said on twitter the other day when I pulled him and Mark Douglas up on printing unwarranted crap towards Hughton:

 

simonbirdmirror

Agree it is premature. But he has to prove himself in top flight. 2-3 months patience needed

18 Oct at 19:39

 

2 days later he's printing more crap.

[Guest neesy111]

It's a results business, so if Hughton get's the results he'll be fine, if he doesn't then it'll be difficult for him, also the fact that isn't helping Hughton is how both Blackpool and West Brom are doing better than us as well.