Football Finances

[Unbelievable]

Interesting piece. This part is well -worthy:

 

David Gill, the chief executive of Manchester United, rose to speak. He questioned why the Premier League had to serve the needs of oligarchs and oil-rich Sheiks. Manchester United were focused on the health of the competition, he said — at this point it would have taken a heart of stone not to laugh — and he would go a stage further.

[ponsaelius]

It's an interesting piece from the fat, hairy cunt in that he is trying to offer a different side to the argument but I just can't agree with the premise. Spurs have signed the agreement because despite being ran very well for a number of years, being profitable and constantly improving their side there is nothing they can do to get close to Chelsea and Man City who can simply offer and spend more money they should really have. They're seeing their policies, revenue and profitibility being put to waste and the same can be said to Arsenal who apart from some naff signings in recent years are an exceptionally well ran club. Clubs like ourselves, Everton, mackems, Villa etc will similarly back such a policy because it will reign in City/Chelsea and open the door.

 

It seems to me the only reason for his argument is that City/Chelsea can get one over Man Utd. On the whole though the megarich ownership unfairly fucks over most of the teams far more than a revenue based system does.

[leffe186]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2261817/Arsenal-Manchester-United-financial-fair-play-plot-ruin-Premier-League--Martin-Samuel.html?ITO=socialnet-twitter-newcastlemail&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=socialnet-twitter-newcastlemail&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

 

while I dislike linking a Martin Samuel piece theres a bit in here about the prems FFP idea and who's behind it thats interesting, Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs are the brains behind making the prem clubs comply with UEFA's FFP rules (all clubs must at least break even, no owner investment on a significant level) which is an obvious move to remove City and Chelsea from the equation. Not sure how I feel about it since it will likely mean that all CL clubs have a ridiculous and permanent advantage.

 

Well, yes and no. Lest we forget, Martin Samuel is a West Ham fan, and states:

 

"West Ham United could soon move to the Olympic Stadium, with a genuine chance for expansion. Why would they vote to limit their possibilities simply to ensure the success of an established few?  Why would any club with potential, from Aston Villa, to Sunderland or Southampton? Maybe it’s the Arsenal-headed paper reeling them in."

 

Ironically (pun intended), West Ham would actually be more likely to prosper, having been handed a cheap stadium and the opportunity to increase their turnover. The question is whether we think such lottery wins (like Chelsea and Man City) are fair dos, or whether we want clubs to generate their own money (with the likelihood that Man U and Arsenal, but also Spurs and Newcastle will be on top in perpetuity). All CL clubs have a ridiculous advantage, sure, but City and Chelsea's is even more ridiculous. Without the comedy money spent by those two, I'd have expected the CL money to be spread around rather more too. Last year being an obvious example.

 

As a Spurs fan, obviously I'd be in favour. If everyone had been forced to live within their means, there's a good chance we'd have qualified for the last half-a-dozen Champions Leagues. As a football fan, it might be less clear-cut, but I'd still like to feel that clubs are not run at a loss.

[leffe186]

It's an interesting piece from the fat, hairy c*** in that he is trying to offer a different side to the argument but I just can't agree with the premise. Spurs have signed the agreement because despite being ran very well for a number of years, being profitable and constantly improving their side there is nothing they can do to get close to Chelsea and Man City who can simply offer and spend more money they should really have. They're seeing their policies, revenue and profitibility being put to waste and the same can be said to Arsenal who apart from some naff signings in recent years are an exceptionally well ran club. Clubs like ourselves, Everton, mackems, Villa etc will similarly back such a policy because it will reign in City/Chelsea and open the door.

 

It seems to me the only reason for his argument is that City/Chelsea can get one over Man Utd. On the whole though the megarich ownership unfairly f***s over most of the teams far more than a revenue based system does.

 

I completely agree with the first part, apart from one thing. You mention Villa, yet they are against the agreement. Coincidentally, or not, they are owned by a billionaire American, who started throwing money at the club but held back when FFP was confirmed. It would suit them if he could just keep throwing money at them. Fulham too.

 

There are other reasons for his arguments, though. It is true that there is the danger of giving Man U and Arsenal an advantage, but frankly I'd rather that than the obscenities that are Man City and Chelsea. More importantly, his own team, West Ham, would be more likely to break into the upper echelons if they were allowed to tout round for billionaires. Particularly those who might be attracted by, say, a nice cheap massive high-profile venue? It's self-interest, from every side.

[Unbelievable]

I fully agree with that last sentence leffe. Every club's voting behaviour will be based on what is ultimately in their own interests rather than the interest of the game itself.

[Guest Roger Kint]

This bump just reminded me that the club accounts will probably be here in 6 weeks or so. Always good for the meltdown on here 

[Cronky]

I can see why some people are worried that there would be no-one to challenge Man U if Man City and Chelsea are reeled in, but it's only when Ferguson retires that we'll get a true measure of Man U's strength. Let's not forget that they are having to service a huge debt. Fergie's ability is worth a sizeable number of points to them each season.

 

I think extending FFP to the Premiership is a step in the right direction. The next step is a more even distribution of TV money. The revenue gaps between the CL and the Premiership, and between the Premiership and the Championship, are way too large.

 

 

[colinmk]

I can see why some people are worried that there would be no-one to challenge Man U if Man City and Chelsea are reeled in, but it's only when Ferguson retires that we'll get a true measure of Man U's strength. Let's not forget that they are having to service a huge debt. Fergie's ability is worth a sizeable number of points to them each season.

 

I think extending FFP to the Premiership is a step in the right direction. The next step is a more even distribution of TV money. The revenue gaps between the CL and the Premiership, and between the Premiership and the Championship, are way too large.

 

 

 

I'd get rid of the premiership and have one entity for the whole league to try and make it fairer. Don't even know where to start with the champions league. There's so much in favour of the 'elite' in football at the moment it's ridiculous.

[Unbelievable]

I can see why some people are worried that there would be no-one to challenge Man U if Man City and Chelsea are reeled in, but it's only when Ferguson retires that we'll get a true measure of Man U's strength. Let's not forget that they are having to service a huge debt. Fergie's ability is worth a sizeable number of points to them each season.

 

I think extending FFP to the Premiership is a step in the right direction. The next step is a more even distribution of TV money. The revenue gaps between the CL and the Premiership, and between the Premiership and the Championship, are way too large.

 

 

 

And therein lies the hypocrisy as far as Man U is concerned. They have been in a position to dominate domestic football for decades through outside (loan) investment in much the same way as the new oil rich clubs do, yet they now want to reel those in.

 

Arsenal is a different kettle of fish altogether, what with trying to live within its means (stadium investment excluded). The fact Man U supports their FFP proposal harms them more than it serves them iyam.

[Big Geordie]

It's a good piece and yes, I'm for the likes of Chelsea and Man Citeh being pulled back but there is the argument that this will only benefit the Mancs. What will be interesting (with regards to Europe) is if UEFA start taking the hard line with the big clubs who are in a shit load of debt - I bet they won't and this is where another problem lies. Where money and greed rule, corruption also exists.

[jdckelly]

I can see why some people are worried that there would be no-one to challenge Man U if Man City and Chelsea are reeled in, but it's only when Ferguson retires that we'll get a true measure of Man U's strength. Let's not forget that they are having to service a huge debt. Fergie's ability is worth a sizeable number of points to them each season.

 

I think extending FFP to the Premiership is a step in the right direction. The next step is a more even distribution of TV money. The revenue gaps between the CL and the Premiership, and between the Premiership and the Championship, are way too large.

 

 

 

And therein lies the hypocrisy as far as Man U is concerned. They have been in a position to dominate domestic football for decades through outside (loan) investment in much the same way as the new oil rich clubs do, yet they now want to reel those in.

 

Arsenal is a different kettle of fish altogether, what with trying to live within its means (stadium investment excluded). The fact Man U supports their FFP proposal harms them more than it serves them iyam.

well tbh no Man U haven't typically been a debt heavy club, its only with the Glazers dumping the cost of buying Man U for themselves onto Man U itself  that created the ridiculous debt, hell in 2004 David Gill said that debt is the road to ruin (his tune has changed since then). The reason they dominated is simply the ridiculous income they generate.

 

I can see the upsides of FFP in stopping the likes of City and Chelsea however theres the other side of the coin in the likes of Fulham who have gotten a fair bit of money in from Al Fayed but are hardly City or Chelseaesque.

[leffe186]

I can see why some people are worried that there would be no-one to challenge Man U if Man City and Chelsea are reeled in, but it's only when Ferguson retires that we'll get a true measure of Man U's strength. Let's not forget that they are having to service a huge debt. Fergie's ability is worth a sizeable number of points to them each season.

 

I think extending FFP to the Premiership is a step in the right direction. The next step is a more even distribution of TV money. The revenue gaps between the CL and the Premiership, and between the Premiership and the Championship, are way too large.

 

 

 

And therein lies the hypocrisy as far as Man U is concerned. They have been in a position to dominate domestic football for decades through outside (loan) investment in much the same way as the new oil rich clubs do, yet they now want to reel those in.

 

Arsenal is a different kettle of fish altogether, what with trying to live within its means (stadium investment excluded). The fact Man U supports their FFP proposal harms them more than it serves them iyam.

well tbh no Man U haven't typically been a debt heavy club, its only with the Glazers dumping the cost of buying Man U for themselves onto Man U itself  that created the ridiculous debt, hell in 2004 David Gill said that debt is the road to ruin (his tune has changed since then). The reason they dominated is simply the ridiculous income they generate.

 

I can see the upsides of FFP in stopping the likes of City and Chelsea however theres the other side of the coin in the likes of Fulham who have gotten a fair bit of money in from Al Fayed but are hardly City or Chelseaesque.

 

That's the thing though, it's not the other side of the coin. It's the same side. We need to choose whether we want clubs to work within their means, or let them pay whatever they want to, funded by their owners. There's no right or wrong, just how we individuals want the game to go.

 

Anyone who thinks that we should let teams spend whatever they want can have no complaints about QPR trying to gazump you over Remy, for example.

[Cronky]

Financial doping does artificially inflate transfer fees and wages in general, and there's a lot of pressure on clubs to spend big just to keep up. If there was a rule for everyone that you don't go into the red or be subsidised then that pressure is eased. Effectively, clubs have no choice but to balance the books.

 

It's not about having a completely level playing field. It's about imposing some discipline.

[jdckelly]

only way to really solve it is a wage cap

[Guest tollemache]

I suspect that would only lead to more bungs, auxiliary payments, houses, cars, "pension schemes" and whatever else anybody could think of to bolt onto contracts or offer on the sly. It'd turn football from a mere nest of cunts into a Harry Redknapp-inspired cunt wonderland

[Guest tollemache]

I also find it a bit sad, looking at the conduct of the worst offenders such as QPR and Man City, that they seem so completely confident of beating FFP. City aren't going to stand for being banned from Europe no matter what and they clearly don't consider it much of a threat.

 

Having said that, there's no doubt it's a step in the right direction and it could conceivably end up benefiting us if it's ever applied with any vigour whatsoever, so bring it on

[Teasy]

Man City's spending has been reducing:

 

Season 08/09 - £113m net

Season 09/10 - £99m net

Season 10/11 - £116m net

Season 11/12 - £48m net

Season 12/13 - £31m net

 

It'll be interesting to see what they spend next year if they don't win the league.

[Stifler]

I don't give a shit anymore.

 

These clubs are never going to play fair, they are always going find ways around it (Etihad stadium), the fans are always going to laud it over everyone else and claim they are playing by the rules, FIFA, UEFA, FA's they are all going to allow it so long as the money keeps rolling in. Football isn't for the common man anymore, when some clubs have a cheapest ticket priced at £62 because the corporate guys are willing to pay that to get guys in the office a staff party going and football clubs shove out the regular fan because of it you know it's all gone wrong.

 

No more are the days of where a club will give a school some free tickets just for community reasons, no more are tickets easy to get a hold of or afford, no more can you pick up club shirt for the price as it would cost you to get a shirt from a regular clothes shop. Fucking hell man, a match day programme costs the best part of an hours wages if not more, a drink and some chips cost 4 times as much as it would in McDonalds. A player earns more in a week then what we do in 2-3 years of solid graft, there is no love for clubs anymore from players, they can go out not give a shit, and earn the money.

 

Look at it over the last few years with the European championships, and the Worlds Cups, fans now have to pay fortunes to go to countries where they are going to get kicked to shit from either skinheads or religious nuts, Poland/Ukraine, Russia, Qatar, all so that FIFA and UEFA can keep the money rolling, oh and it costs a fortune to do so as well.

 

I support NUFC, NUFC are a club who over the last few years have played it right, not spent more than we can afford, bringing players in for a bargain 9in terms of the amount of money that gets dished about in the game now), we are 1 key player away from getting the perfect team, agree a fee with his club, work hard at getting him to agree a deal then some rich guy from the F1 and a manager who likes to buy players from under the noses of other clubs for the fucking laughs comes in and offers silly money the just can't be competed against. Where the fuck is the fairness? How the fuck is it that it's the smaller clubs, the clubs that play fair who always get cheated?

 

Fans are cheated by the system, by the organisations who run the game, by the sugar daddies, by the pricks who like to mess people about for a laugh, by the high prices involved in following a team these days, and fuck you if you think you can't afford it and have to watch it at home on TV, even then it's too expensive, so you go down the route of streams and foreign channels and then your still the bad guy.

 

There is nothing right in the game anymore, if your not cheated off the pitch your cheated on it with decisions always going to the same big clubs. You can't compete within your means so you get into debt to do so, along comes admin, followed by the 9/10 points deduction which pretty much either relegates you or keeps you away from competing with the big boys. Now it's got worse, don't have a fake sponsorship keeping you going?, well fuck off out of Europe and we will take your prize money off you, in fact we will take every penny the clubs does has then shut you down. Thats the fucking prize for trying to compete.

 

There is no place left in this sport for the common man, there is no place left in this sport for club who keeps his loyalty to the common man.

 

In a way I hope NUFC never try to compete with the big boys because it leads to ruin, I hope we just sit there right behind them because soon enough the corporate office parties at the football match is going to go away, the billionaire playboys are going to find a new hobby and the clubs who sold their souls and sold their fans to be in with the it crowd are going to fall away and die, and I fucking hope NUFC is there to be a big club when football once again becomes football.

[Stifler]

only way to really solve it is a wage cap

It's not going to happen.

 

1. It would have to involve a shared wage cap for all clubs, no more % of revenue because revenue can be and is being manipulated by dodgy sponsorship deals etc.

 

2. Do it in one league/country then it will just push the money to another league/nation destroying the clubs being left behind and dropped.

 

3. Too much money involve, and too much corruption, FIFA, UEFA are never going to let their stock go down, and they are always going to want more money handed over under the desk.

[AlanSkÃrare]

It sinks in at times. How unbalanced and unfair the playing field has become really takes the fun out of the sport. I think it's evident how the rise of good managers, chairmen and academies are so much more visible and interesting in the lower leagues now because of the different financial landscape. There is money there as well, but the spending powers aren't controlling everything in the same manner.

 

Paul Lambert, Eddie Howe etc. have shown their capabilities at clubs competing in an environment that isn't as drained in money and commercial interest as the top tier. The more level playing field makes for more interesting scenarios, breakthroughs and developments than the overall predictable, one dimensional structure that's offered by the Premier League.

 

No matter how talented your manager is, how good your academy is, how loyal your fanbase is - the money will always win. This isn't a reaction to what happend with Remy yesterday, but it was a reminder that our business model accounts for nothing competitively. There is a roof for us and everyone else.

 

It needs resolving. The current situation slowly kills football for me. Supporting a team should be built on excitement and hope. As of now, I have no hope of seeing Newcastle compete at that level.

[colinmk]

Good post there Stifler.

[Guest JS]

I don't give a s*** anymore.

 

These clubs are never going to play fair, they are always going find ways around it (Etihad stadium), the fans are always going to laud it over everyone else and claim they are playing by the rules, FIFA, UEFA, FA's they are all going to allow it so long as the money keeps rolling in. Football isn't for the common man anymore, when some clubs have a cheapest ticket priced at £62 because the corporate guys are willing to pay that to get guys in the office a staff party going and football clubs shove out the regular fan because of it you know it's all gone wrong.

 

No more are the days of where a club will give a school some free tickets just for community reasons, no more are tickets easy to get a hold of or afford, no more can you pick up club shirt for the price as it would cost you to get a shirt from a regular clothes shop. f***ing hell man, a match day programme costs the best part of an hours wages if not more, a drink and some chips cost 4 times as much as it would in McDonalds. A player earns more in a week then what we do in 2-3 years of solid graft, there is no love for clubs anymore from players, they can go out not give a s***, and earn the money.

 

Look at it over the last few years with the European championships, and the Worlds Cups, fans now have to pay fortunes to go to countries where they are going to get kicked to s*** from either skinheads or religious nuts, Poland/Ukraine, Russia, Qatar, all so that FIFA and UEFA can keep the money rolling, oh and it costs a fortune to do so as well.

 

I support NUFC, NUFC are a club who over the last few years have played it right, not spent more than we can afford, bringing players in for a bargain 9in terms of the amount of money that gets dished about in the game now), we are 1 key player away from getting the perfect team, agree a fee with his club, work hard at getting him to agree a deal then some rich guy from the F1 and a manager who likes to buy players from under the noses of other clubs for the f***ing laughs comes in and offers silly money the just can't be competed against. Where the f*** is the fairness? How the f*** is it that it's the smaller clubs, the clubs that play fair who always get cheated?

 

Fans are cheated by the system, by the organisations who run the game, by the sugar daddies, by the pricks who like to mess people about for a laugh, by the high prices involved in following a team these days, and f*** you if you think you can't afford it and have to watch it at home on TV, even then it's too expensive, so you go down the route of streams and foreign channels and then your still the bad guy.

 

There is nothing right in the game anymore, if your not cheated off the pitch your cheated on it with decisions always going to the same big clubs. You can't compete within your means so you get into debt to do so, along comes admin, followed by the 9/10 points deduction which pretty much either relegates you or keeps you away from competing with the big boys. Now it's got worse, don't have a fake sponsorship keeping you going?, well f*** off out of Europe and we will take your prize money off you, in fact we will take every penny the clubs does has then shut you down. Thats the f***ing prize for trying to compete.

 

There is no place left in this sport for the common man, there is no place left in this sport for club who keeps his loyalty to the common man.

 

In a way I hope NUFC never try to compete with the big boys because it leads to ruin, I hope we just sit there right behind them because soon enough the corporate office parties at the football match is going to go away, the billionaire playboys are going to find a new hobby and the clubs who sold their souls and sold their fans to be in with the it crowd are going to fall away and die, and I f***ing hope NUFC is there to be a big club when football once again becomes football.

 

Great post

[Sima]

I don't give a shit anymore.

 

These clubs are never going to play fair, they are always going find ways around it (Etihad stadium), the fans are always going to laud it over everyone else and claim they are playing by the rules, FIFA, UEFA, FA's they are all going to allow it so long as the money keeps rolling in. Football isn't for the common man anymore, when some clubs have a cheapest ticket priced at £62 because the corporate guys are willing to pay that to get guys in the office a staff party going and football clubs shove out the regular fan because of it you know it's all gone wrong.

 

No more are the days of where a club will give a school some free tickets just for community reasons, no more are tickets easy to get a hold of or afford, no more can you pick up club shirt for the price as it would cost you to get a shirt from a regular clothes shop. Fucking hell man, a match day programme costs the best part of an hours wages if not more, a drink and some chips cost 4 times as much as it would in McDonalds. A player earns more in a week then what we do in 2-3 years of solid graft, there is no love for clubs anymore from players, they can go out not give a shit, and earn the money.

 

Look at it over the last few years with the European championships, and the Worlds Cups, fans now have to pay fortunes to go to countries where they are going to get kicked to shit from either skinheads or religious nuts, Poland/Ukraine, Russia, Qatar, all so that FIFA and UEFA can keep the money rolling, oh and it costs a fortune to do so as well.

 

I support NUFC, NUFC are a club who over the last few years have played it right, not spent more than we can afford, bringing players in for a bargain 9in terms of the amount of money that gets dished about in the game now), we are 1 key player away from getting the perfect team, agree a fee with his club, work hard at getting him to agree a deal then some rich guy from the F1 and a manager who likes to buy players from under the noses of other clubs for the fucking laughs comes in and offers silly money the just can't be competed against. Where the fuck is the fairness? How the fuck is it that it's the smaller clubs, the clubs that play fair who always get cheated?

 

Fans are cheated by the system, by the organisations who run the game, by the sugar daddies, by the pricks who like to mess people about for a laugh, by the high prices involved in following a team these days, and fuck you if you think you can't afford it and have to watch it at home on TV, even then it's too expensive, so you go down the route of streams and foreign channels and then your still the bad guy.

 

There is nothing right in the game anymore, if your not cheated off the pitch your cheated on it with decisions always going to the same big clubs. You can't compete within your means so you get into debt to do so, along comes admin, followed by the 9/10 points deduction which pretty much either relegates you or keeps you away from competing with the big boys. Now it's got worse, don't have a fake sponsorship keeping you going?, well fuck off out of Europe and we will take your prize money off you, in fact we will take every penny the clubs does has then shut you down. Thats the fucking prize for trying to compete.

 

There is no place left in this sport for the common man, there is no place left in this sport for club who keeps his loyalty to the common man.

 

In a way I hope NUFC never try to compete with the big boys because it leads to ruin, I hope we just sit there right behind them because soon enough the corporate office parties at the football match is going to go away, the billionaire playboys are going to find a new hobby and the clubs who sold their souls and sold their fans to be in with the it crowd are going to fall away and die, and I fucking hope NUFC is there to be a big club when football once again becomes football.

 

As good a post as I have read on here in a long time.

[Dave]

 

The problem is that it's not going to change any time soon, at least not until us lot stop putting our brass in. Yes the sponsors pay a lot of money and the football authorities like to pretend we don't exist but ultimately the really huge money comes from Sky, paid for by the fans. I'm a hypocrite as I have the full package.

[colinmk]

 

The problem is that it's not going to change any time soon, at least not until us lot stop putting our brass in. Yes the sponsors pay a lot of money and the football authorities like to pretend we don't exist but ultimately the really huge money comes from Sky, paid for by the fans. I'm a hypocrite as I have the full package.

 

Me too, they have their claws in us and it's not going to change anytime soon even though I fucking hate the principles involved in it all. It doesn't even excite me much anymore though but I just love having the option of watching Barca or whoever in HD on a boring wednesday night.