Football Finances

[leffe186]

An unnamed consortium with unnamed members pledging to buy a club for 2-3 times it's stock market value despite loads of other similar clubs being available for much less that would require less/similar levels of investment.

 

Yeah right.

 

Not read the article too closely, but I don't see it as completely unreasonable at all. Who else could they buy that would require less investment? That just seems like a weird thing to say. Their ground is one of the biggest and best in the world, the location is fantastic, the team have qualified for every CL for years.

 

In fact, the more I think about it, the more bizarre your post sounds.

 

I have to say, though, that if this happened I would be very, very tempted to just walk away. What's the point?

[Optimistic Nut]

That really would be it. Top 4 would be even more of a closed shop, would be the Manchesters, Chelsea and now Arsenal every fucking year. I realise up to this season it's been pretty much that anyway lately, but that would be it ruined.

[Guest neesy111]

Financial Fair Play.

 

[Teasy]

Financial Fair Play.

 

 

Nothings actually happened yet..

[Dokko]

An unnamed consortium with unnamed members pledging to buy a club for 2-3 times it's stock market value despite loads of other similar clubs being available for much less that would require less/similar levels of investment.

 

Yeah right.

 

Stadium is worth over £500m alone, club has £120m in the bank, London, fanbase & players all quickly adds up. £1.5bn is the very top imo, but not too unrealistic.

 

 

[leffe186]

That really would be it. Top 4 would be even more of a closed shop, would be the Manchesters, Chelsea and now Arsenal every f***ing year. I realise up to this season it's been pretty much that anyway lately, but that would be it ruined.

 

It's a change for us (Spurs and Newcastle Utd), because we're two teams that genuinely have a chance of being there or thereabouts if (a) FFP means a bit more than nothing (b) we actually succeed in building this stadium without bankrupting ourselves. As such, we have been insulated a bit from the way the game has been moving over the last few years. I get that fans of clubs like Leeds, Nottingham Forest, West Brom, even Aston Villa, have had to deal with the realities of being financially outgunned for years, not to mention nearly every single lower division and non-league club. I get that, and I respect their support of their clubs more than ever - I mean, it boils it down to supporting your city/town/suburb - after all, what else is left? I just think that to get so close, and to have it snatched away yet again, in such a way that is completely divorced from my ideals about football - that might be too much. And then I would have to deal with Arsenal fans - who are, in theory, just like me, and maybe even grew up in the same place (one or two of them, anyway) - trying to rub it in my face. What would be the point, both of them doing that and me taking it? Well done, you picked a team that has essentially infinite money, and your group of players each paid twice the amount my guys are paid did better. Fucking well done.

 

Like I say, I feel a bit of a fraud because we've really ended up on the right side of the fence (barely). What right have I to walk away, when hundreds of thousands (millions?) of others didn't do so, under similar conditions? What kind of a football supporter am I? We've always had these arbitrary distinctions - certainly in London, where I went to school with lots of Gooners and Spurs fans, many plastic scousers, one or two Chelsea, West Ham and Orient fans and a renegade Man U fan (I'm looking at you, Tasos Anastasiou). There's always been this layer of self-delusion, where most of us supported their local team/family team through a sense of community, yet many others chose teams because of what? Their own personal inadequacy? Rejection of their community, or sociological norms? Pretty colours?

 

Brummie made similar posts before - quite a few as I recall - and I knew my time might come. You know full well that he will be a Villa fan forever, and probably always go to a few games, maybe even take the children. It won't be the same. I feel somewhat childish in thinking that an Arsenal lottery win would be the final straw. I mean, I sucked up Chelsea and Man City, plus several years of missing the Premier League boat. Why am I allowed to throw my toys out of the pram now?

 

I hope we go out there today and fucking destroy them, like I do every time. I expect to lose, like I do every time. We're even supposed to be favourites, although I think both teams are pretty even. I can take the piss out of Gooner mates or they can take the piss out of me, that's absolutely fine. I love football, and always will, even though my hamstrings are shot and I haven't been to a game all season for the first time since I was a child (the joys of living in the US). I just think that Arsenal getting financial doping will be the end. I get enough sporting support agony now, here in Cleveland, to keep me occupied.

[leffe186]

^^^^^^^^^^

 

Who's that negative fucking bastard, anyway? Football's great, isn't it?

[Dave]

Where is Brummie, anyway?

[leffe186]

Where is Brummie, anyway?

 

Was thinking that myself. When was he last on/posting?

[ponsaelius]

Probably given up on football altogether the poor bastard

[Village Idiot]

I still cling to the false hope that FFP will actually have teeth.

[Big Geordie]

I still cling to the false hope that FFP will actually have teeth.

 

It'll end up being a very toothless tiger, IMO.

[merlin]

That really would be it. Top 4 would be even more of a closed shop, would be the Manchesters, Chelsea and now Arsenal every f***ing year. I realise up to this season it's been pretty much that anyway lately, but that would be it ruined.

Look what happened in Scotland - its been like that for years but nobody in England thought it mattered...

Different now....

[brummie]

Where is Brummie, anyway?

 

Was thinking that myself. When was he last on/posting?

 

I'm here.

 

I've had lots of other non-football related stuff going on, but think I have emerged from it relatively unscathed.

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

An unnamed consortium with unnamed members pledging to buy a club for 2-3 times it's stock market value despite loads of other similar clubs being available for much less that would require less/similar levels of investment.

 

Yeah right.

 

Not read the article too closely, but I don't see it as completely unreasonable at all. Who else could they buy that would require less investment? That just seems like a weird thing to say. Their ground is one of the biggest and best in the world, the location is fantastic, the team have qualified for every CL for years.

 

In fact, the more I think about it, the more bizarre your post sounds.

 

I have to say, though, that if this happened I would be very, very tempted to just walk away. What's the point?

 

Would you be in favour of forming a breakaway league with a salary cap and transfer spend cap? It's kind of a difficult question for you I guess because Spurs are just about there now in terms of being a 'big club', by which I mean richer than everyone else by virtue of playing the Champs league. I would certainly trade European football for a fairer, competitive league. Would almost be in favour of the smaller clubs telling the richer clubs to sod off.

 

As things stand football is getting pretty pointless, I think Qatar 2022 will probably be when football jumps the shark.

[brummie]

 

Brummie made similar posts before - quite a few as I recall - and I knew my time might come. You know full well that he will be a Villa fan forever, and probably always go to a few games, maybe even take the children. It won't be the same. I feel somewhat childish in thinking that an Arsenal lottery win would be the final straw. I mean, I sucked up Chelsea and Man City, plus several years of missing the Premier League boat. Why am I allowed to throw my toys out of the pram now?

 

I admit, it is hypocritical for me to moan about the huge amounts of money that gets chucked at some clubs, when for four years recently, we spent more money on transfers than 90 percent of clubs in the league.

 

Slight ramble, but I was in a low-grade card shop the other day, here in Warwickshire, and they had this display of revoltingly garish football club calendars.

 

They had Liverpool, Man United and Man City. Now, call me cynical, but I imagine, say, four years ago even, you'd have to travel at least 80 miles north to find anywhere selling Manchester City merchandise. That's no longer the case. I walk around my local towns and frequently see people wearing Man City shirts / scarves / yada yada whatever. I would imagine that a few years ago, these people would probably have latched on to Man United.

 

Then again, I live a 15 mins drive from Coventry, and when I walk around, say, Warwick, Leamington Spa, Stratford Upon Avon, places which (esp the first two) you'd expect to be in the natural orbit of Coventry City, I never, ever see people wearing Coventry shirts or scarves. Literally, never. But I very frequently see people wearing Villa colours. Also, I very frequently see a lot of other Villa fans getting on the train down here when I take public transport to matches.

 

Were I a Coventry City fan, this would annoy the shit out of me, in the same way Man City fans annoy me now. I guess, the lower down the pyramid you go, the larger the choice of teams more successful to which plastics can attach themselves (even teams who haven't won anything for years).

 

I sometimes think football is just cyclical. We are currently in a period of being shit, but it won't be too long before we have a decent period again. The same goes for Newcastle, Spurs, Everton etc etc, lots of clubs.

 

What won't change, though, is the fact that to really consistently do well and win stuff (Man United are a slight exception here), you need a rich sugar daddy. Spurs getting into the CL this year won't be enough, they need to do it year after year. See also, Everton, when they made it.

 

The FFP stuff, if you actually look at it, looks more like a bunch of measures made to defend the status quo, rather than encourage challenges to it.

[leffe186]

Where is Brummie, anyway?

 

Was thinking that myself. When was he last on/posting?

 

I'm here.

 

I've had lots of other non-football related stuff going on, but think I have emerged from it relatively unscathed.

 

Hope so, good to hear from you. I'd suggest taking solace from the non-football stuff in football, but as with my Villa wife, that's not currently an option.

[Dokko]

What is it again? Basically a £33m loss 3 years running before ffp takes action.

 

It's really only going to effect one or two teams if that, I mean is citehs £400m sponsorship of their ground really worth the money? How and why is that allowed? Unless they go over and review and stop every sly deal like that ffp is worth fuck all.

 

Ffp is probably the most pointless thing to come in to football in a long time, which is a shame as the idea had potential.

 

 

[Teasy]

Not very effective doesn't equal worth fuck all.  If all it does is make another Man City situation impossible than its still done something good, as it is it could very well do more than that.  I wonder why Man City haven't spent massively again to sustain their trophy run?

[Dokko]

Not very effective doesn't equal worth fuck all.  If all it does is make another Man City situation impossible than its still done something good.

 

But it won't even do that if they can self sponsor hundreds of millions which would normally only bring in a small % of that.

[Teasy]

Not very effective doesn't equal worth fuck all.  If all it does is make another Man City situation impossible than its still done something good.

 

But it won't even do that if they can self sponsor hundreds of millions which would normally only bring in a small % of that.

 

That's over 10 seasons, £40m per season for naming rights on the shirt, stadium and training complex (maybe £10m-15m per season more than you'd expect for a club in their situation).  In the first 3 years of the Abu Dhabi ownership Man City spent over £400m on fees and probably another couple of hundred million went on extra wages on top of what they could normally afford.  Even a ridiculous sponsorship deal like that doesn't scrape the surface on what it costs to do what they did neither would an allowed loss of £33m per season.  Also does anyone know if that £33m allowed loss is only just an initial thing for a certain number of seasons once FFP kicks in?, or is it a constant for every season after it kicks in?

 

These FFP rules will never stop overspending, but they do limit it at least.  They aren't good enough at all and should do more, but I'm still in the somethings better than nothing camp.

[Dokko]

Not very effective doesn't equal worth fuck all.  If all it does is make another Man City situation impossible than its still done something good.

 

But it won't even do that if they can self sponsor hundreds of millions which would normally only bring in a small % of that.

 

How much did Man City spend in the first few of years of the new ownership though?  You're talking about a sponsorship deal that's netting them maybe 15m per season more than you'd expect.  In the first 3 years of the Abu Dhabi ownership Man City spent over £400m on fees and probably another couple of hundred million went on wages.  Even a ridiculous sponsorship deal like that doesn't scrape the surface on what it costs to do what they did neither would a allowed loss of £33m per season (also isn't that just for the first 3 seasons until teams get stabalised once it all kicks in?).

 

So like Brummie said at best it will stop start ups protecting the status quo. It gives the edge back to the likes of Manu over citeh and that's about it. Ffp should protect clubs like Leeds, Portsmouth & Darlington but those situations haven't even been considered, it's about keeping the rich rich, the big big, and not allow any challenge to that.

 

If citeh want to buy Messi for £200m under ffp what will stop them? Nothing. They buy him, then get a new goal post sponsorship deal worth £300m to cover the cost and ffp won't do jack shit as they'll be battered in court and lose all power they think they have. It's a farce, I can't take it seriously.

[Teasy]

 

So like Brummie said at best it will stop start ups protecting the status quo. It gives the edge back to the likes of Manu over citeh and that's about it. Ffp should protect clubs like Leeds, Portsmouth & Darlington but those situations haven't even been considered, it's about keeping the rich rich, the big big, and not allow any challenge to that.

 

It won't fix the underlying financial problems in Football (ones that have been their for decades).  Just saying its not pointless, their's nothing I hate more than the Chelsea/Man City takeover scenarios and I think if it was allowed to happen again that would be it for me and Football (certainly close to it anyway).

 

If citeh want to buy Messi for £200m under ffp what will stop them? Nothing. They buy him, then get a new goal post sponsorship deal worth £300m to cover the cost and ffp won't do jack shit as they'll be battered in court and lose all power they think they have. It's a farce, I can't take it seriously.

 

They've sponsored absolutely everything they own right to the limits of believability and beyond and its gained them a relatively small extra sum of cash per season (£10-15m more than the going rate).  I'd rather have these clubs having to do their utmost to funnel some limited extra funds into the club than have then simply allowed to put whatever they want in at the drop of a hat.  I wish they were investigated and stopped completely, but obviously that isn't going to happen because the games run by crooks.  Also what would you have liked them to put in place to stop the possibility of Man City or anyone else going to court against any FFP rules?

[Guest neesy111]

Liverpool losses continue.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21657580

[madras]

 

So like Brummie said at best it will stop start ups protecting the status quo. It gives the edge back to the likes of Manu over citeh and that's about it. Ffp should protect clubs like Leeds, Portsmouth & Darlington but those situations haven't even been considered, it's about keeping the rich rich, the big big, and not allow any challenge to that.

 

It won't fix the underlying financial problems in Football (ones that have been their for decades).  Just saying its not pointless, their's nothing I hate more than the Chelsea/Man City takeover scenarios and I think if it was allowed to happen again that would be it for me and Football (certainly close to it anyway).

 

If citeh want to buy Messi for £200m under ffp what will stop them? Nothing. They buy him, then get a new goal post sponsorship deal worth £300m to cover the cost and ffp won't do jack s*** as they'll be battered in court and lose all power they think they have. It's a farce, I can't take it seriously.

 

They've sponsored absolutely everything they own right to the limits of believability and beyond and its gained them a relatively small extra sum of cash per season (£10-15m more than the going rate).  I'd rather have these clubs having to do their utmost to funnel some limited extra funds into the club than have then simply allowed to put whatever they want in at the drop of a hat. I wish they were investigated and stopped completely, but obviously that isn't going to happen because the games run by crooks.  Also what would you have liked them to put in place to stop the possibility of Man City or anyone else going to court against any FFP rules?

thats what i'm waiting for, from what I've read there will be a panel/comittee or whatever to decide on the legitimacy of deals like the citeh academy/training ground sponsorship deals. FFP all comes down to that decision IMO.