How much will we spend this summer (should we stay up :))? NET

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I tend to agree Punk, Shepherd undoubtedly had 'ambition', but he risked the future of the club and still didn't achieve lasting success.

 

Ashley has made fucking awful errors, and probably will again, but fortunately those haven't affected us that badly on the pitch. In the meantime the club is being put on a much sounder footing.

 

Clearly Ashley's first concern is to look after the finances for a while, any 'ambition' or lack of it has to be understood in that context. I think he would like success and progress, but only if it is achievable within his restrained financial plan.

[Mr Logic]

 

1) Other clubs are run with other ambitions. In footballing terms, there are clear restraints to what I'm proposing, so it will not be popular with everyone.

 

2) There's been a semi-artificial barrier of fear between clubs and relegation from the Premiership. Ashley was forced through that and found things need not be so bad.

 

3) Strategy is contextual. It's not only about aims but means. We're the stupidest big club in England, not a highly-efficient little club, which makes us nice to own. There are a number of 'tweener' clubs who float between the top two divisions and are financially healthy, but not necessarily hugely profitable. This is because they tend to have lower or less loyal supports, and are less attractive as clubs, lacking the stadium, reputation and history that the average 20-something footballer will be even vaguely aware of. It may not mean a huge amount, but it does at least mean something for Leon Best to play in our colours, and even mercenaries will recognise St James Park as being a bigger stage to showcase their talents in. Combined with our essential financial muscle, we play by different rules to all but a handful of clubs (and they're generally already successful, so their owners don't need to think about ways of recouping their investment even if that was their only interest...).

 

4) It seems I can't stress enough to you how much the plan I identify is centred on minimising risk. Profit is a bonus, albeit one he's likely to get and will be delighted to receive. His main aim, however, is never to stretch himself in such a way that creates the risk of serious loss, with only smaller, more affordable risks taken for potentially massive reward (the ones where winning some and losing some see you coming out massively ahead - e.g. Routledge (no loss) and Tiote (big gain))

 

5) Just because you think it's not a sensible approach to running a football club, just because lots of people don't, it doesn't mean Ashley and Llambias agree. I reckon Llambias, the day to day decision maker, in particular reckons they're uncommonly savvy guys who know how to pull moves and have a lot of good ideas about the game. (This is more for the Teasy post I haven't addressed yet)

 

Do you think that Ashley (or Llambias) is aware of the tremendous fillip the team spirit contributes, and further, how easily and quickly that could be eroded by continually transferring the better players out whilst crossing ones fingers about the players transferred in? So far we only have the sale of Carroll to hypothesise on, sales preceding that one were at a different time and under different circumstances. I am uneasy as he (Ashley) can be such a loose cannon, but am prepared to wait until the end of the summer transfer window before I make any deductions about what the future holds.

[Teasy]

If we're in the Premier League and around mid table, we'll always get 50k IMO. Our reputation in the world might decline, but our fans have already proved they will put up with anything.

 

I agree if we're in the Premier League around mid table we'll still get good crowds.  I don't agree the fans will put up with anything.  For instance I think crowds would have dwindled severely had we stayed in the Championship for more then a couple of seasons.  Also if we do a West Brom, yoyo's between divisions as Ashley bleeds money away from the club we'd also lose significant numbers.

[Colocho]

You need to spend money, if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. So hopefully they spend it and spend it wisely and if you bring certain characters into this dressing room they will buy into the work ethic. That might not have happened four or five years ago.

 

I know it’s the nature of this club that it’s stop-start. As soon as we get something going players get sold and then we have to start again.

We’ve got some good players and if we can add more to that in the summer then we’ve got the basis, a spine of a top side that is capable of challenging for Europe.

 

This squad wants to keep pushing on but we need to compete on all fronts. It’s up to the men upstairs to make sure we amass a squad and get the bodies to do that.

 

Agree with his sentiments. But surely the sale of Carroll is the only example of this (in bold).

[Mr Logic]

If we're in the Premier League and around mid table, we'll always get 50k IMO. Our reputation in the world might decline, but our fans have already proved they will put up with anything.

 

I doubt that, they will put up with a lot of shit but they won't put up with continual shit. You can shave off 10-15k quite quickly under the right (wrong) circumstances.

[Punk77]

I tend to agree Punk, Shepherd undoubtedly had 'ambition', but he risked the future of the club and still didn't achieve lasting success.

 

Ashley has made f***ing awful errors, and probably will again, but fortunately those haven't affected us that badly on the pitch. In the meantime the club is being put on a much sounder footing.

 

Clearly Ashley's first concern is to look after the finances for a while, any 'ambition' or lack of it has to be understood in that context. I think he would like success and progress, but only if it is achievable within his restrained financial plan.

[Teasy]

 

 

The main point is that one of the reasons why we've ended up in the situation we did, was because of lack of strategy and hurling money at mediocre players. That MAs is walking the path of frugality now, doesn't necessarily mean that he will be on that stroll forever. I think 80s point, and mine too, is that by getting control on the salaries and the general economy now, will put MA og Castle in a very strong position in the future. As soon as Castle is able to stand on its own feet, MA will plow some of that money back into the club, investing more in players etc. And if we are able to stabilize around a european spot, the stadium could built out and filled with ease. There are few, if any clubs with the same potential, and I think MA know that. That's why he's setting up a sound foundation now. I think that is an ambition of intent. Spending money need not necessarily represent ambition as long as they are spent needlessly and without a clear plan.

 

What you've said is basically what I've been saying.  The main difference between what you're saying and what 80 is saying is that he believes Ashley will minimise costs and sell players on in order to siphon that money off to pay his loan.  Rather then using that money to improve the side and try to push up the league.

[80]

I'll try and keep this short and sweet given my prior post.

 

Even if it was possible (finding those kind of players year after year) its an incredibly risky strategy, as it consistently destabilises the team while at the same time alienating fans to the point were they would simply stop coming.  The value of the club would decrease and Ashley might still not even get all his investment back over the course of a decade as our revenues would dwindle away.

 

My fifth point above regards this, essentially. I think they'd largely disagree. Personally, I think there's a significant but not spectacular risk regarding long-term squad morale. I think staying in the Premiership is far more achievable than you do, though, as is maintaining a positive transfer balance so long as you keep any footballing ambitions in check. As such, so many of the worst ramifications need not come to fruition, with people being suitably thrown off the scent by occasional cup runs, cracks at European spots and maybe even one more emulation of Hughton's Heroes down in the Championship.

 

The key is supporter attitudes. My point is they've come to be of the view following our relegation that our entire financial-strategic outlook can rest upon a bedrock of a large turnout on the terraces, people turning out to support the lads if not the Board, and people locked into long-term deals when they thought things were looking up. I hope they're wrong, and I appeal to people to prove that.

 

Really the only main difference in my suggestion is that the money from player sales is put back in to improve the side in order to increase the value of the club.  That doesn't cost extra money, as its only money the club is creating itself.  If done right he can then sell and make his money back much quicker.

 

There's no guarantee of success, so the value may well not increase that way.

 

Beyond that, the logic doesn't much add up. It's hard to find good players but we'll sell the good players we have now so that we can buy more of them. And then we'll keep selling them so that we have the money to pay their wages. And we'll do that without raising the wage bill to competitive levels in such a way as to make the club unprofitable again. And we'll do that while still not having a guarantee of success so that if it all goes wrong we might have a bunch of overpaid, under-motivated players in the squad, just like 08/09. And we might well increase our debt to him, meaning he'll have to ask for more money from potential buyers. I say that of course because even if we don't relegated, you make the point that it's hard to discover brilliant players, especially in a shit team, so we might go through a few seasons with no big sales to cover the four and five year contracts we had to offer players the market had previously valued as being European calibre.

 

And someone will definitely offer him more money than they would now for the privilege of owning that situation? This is the lower-risk strategy? Even compared to just taking a few respectable chunks out of the club's debt to him so that any potential buyer won't have to offer quite so much money to him up front as he has previously demanded? Seriously?

 

[Wages] should be kept below a certain percentage of our revenue

 

The higher you go, the more revenue can suddenly drop, suddenly sickening a previous healthly ratio.

 

You've mentioned some random fee's their, but I don't see the relevance.  A lot of those were acquired before he was even here, when we had a squad of expensive/highly thought of (but of course totally useless in the main) players.  Also most of them ended up being sold, not to pay off his loan, but to try to keep the club going financially due to the fact that he'd gotten us relegated, and he actually still lost out anyway and had to add further to his loan to keep the club going.

 

Only Milner and Martins came before him, the first in an Ashley-esque relegation raid on Leeds. They and the others still demonstrate that there is money to be found in transfers - I'm just pointing out the £100m or so that he's invested in the club (I don't know how many times the £220/250m figure needs to be removed from the debate on his investment) starts to look a lot smaller when offered that context - nothing like 8-10 seasons away. You're right that a lot of money made early on was there to cover lost revenue, not make clear profits, but they demonstrate what can be done both in lean and plentiful times - and in the latter it's all profit. He's now stopped having to put money into the club, so if he keeps behaving the same way he can take it back out instead.

[80]

2) There's been a semi-artificial barrier of fear between clubs and relegation from the Premiership. Ashley was forced through that and found things need not be so bad.

 

He lost £30m through that despite bringing in £30m in transfer money and cutting the wage bill in half.  How did he not find it so bad then?

 

 

3) Strategy is contextual. It's not only about aims but means. We're the stupidest big club in England, not a highly-efficient little club, which makes us nice to own. There are a number of 'tweener' clubs who float between the top two divisions and are financially healthy, but not necessarily hugely profitable. This is because they tend to have lower or less loyal supports, and are less attractive as clubs, lacking the stadium, reputation and history that the average 20-something footballer will be even vaguely aware of. It may not mean a huge amount, but it does at least mean something for Leon Best to play in our colours, and even mercenaries will recognise St James Park as being a bigger stage to showcase their talents in. Combined with our essential financial muscle, we play by different rules to all but a handful of clubs (and they're generally already successful, so their owners don't need to think about ways of recouping their investment even if that was their only interest...).

 

But what your suggesting would turn us into a highly efficient little club.  You seem to think that the advantage we hold over other clubs in revenue and stature will always be there no matter what.  Mirror West Brom over the next 10 years and our name/stature and revenue will drop to their kind of levels.

 

1) He found it survivable, less personally abusive, and was given time and space to consider how it could have been even easier if the club hadn't been in an appalling financial position well before the relegation had taken place.

 

2) No, more a highly efficient club with sizeable resources run on his unusual terms. I think you're too pessimistic about the footballing future of the club run in this way, I don't think we'll share a similar league status even if run in a similar way because our natural and currently existent strength mean we can pay wages and attract players who will see us survive more often than not instead of yoyoing every season. Had things turned out differently, Ben Arfa might have been the difference between relegation and survival for us this season, whereas he would never have signed for them last Summer and it could be the difference between them staying up and going down themselves. So we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

 

And to say once again because it doesn't seem to get through, what I think of our future doesn't matter, and neither do you, because we're looking at what Ashley and Llambias think.

[Wullie]

I tend to agree Punk, Shepherd undoubtedly had 'ambition', but he risked the future of the club and still didn't achieve lasting success.

 

Ashley has made fucking awful errors, and probably will again, but fortunately those haven't affected us that badly on the pitch. In the meantime the club is being put on a much sounder footing.

 

Clearly Ashley's first concern is to look after the finances for a while, any 'ambition' or lack of it has to be understood in that context. I think he would like success and progress, but only if it is achievable within his restrained financial plan.

 

Fucking hell man Ian, we got relegated. That's about the worst thing that can happen to a club of our size.

[80]

 

1) Other clubs are run with other ambitions. In footballing terms, there are clear restraints to what I'm proposing, so it will not be popular with everyone.

 

2) There's been a semi-artificial barrier of fear between clubs and relegation from the Premiership. Ashley was forced through that and found things need not be so bad.

 

3) Strategy is contextual. It's not only about aims but means. We're the stupidest big club in England, not a highly-efficient little club, which makes us nice to own. There are a number of 'tweener' clubs who float between the top two divisions and are financially healthy, but not necessarily hugely profitable. This is because they tend to have lower or less loyal supports, and are less attractive as clubs, lacking the stadium, reputation and history that the average 20-something footballer will be even vaguely aware of. It may not mean a huge amount, but it does at least mean something for Leon Best to play in our colours, and even mercenaries will recognise St James Park as being a bigger stage to showcase their talents in. Combined with our essential financial muscle, we play by different rules to all but a handful of clubs (and they're generally already successful, so their owners don't need to think about ways of recouping their investment even if that was their only interest...).

 

4) It seems I can't stress enough to you how much the plan I identify is centred on minimising risk. Profit is a bonus, albeit one he's likely to get and will be delighted to receive. His main aim, however, is never to stretch himself in such a way that creates the risk of serious loss, with only smaller, more affordable risks taken for potentially massive reward (the ones where winning some and losing some see you coming out massively ahead - e.g. Routledge (no loss) and Tiote (big gain))

 

5) Just because you think it's not a sensible approach to running a football club, just because lots of people don't, it doesn't mean Ashley and Llambias agree. I reckon Llambias, the day to day decision maker, in particular reckons they're uncommonly savvy guys who know how to pull moves and have a lot of good ideas about the game. (This is more for the Teasy post I haven't addressed yet)

 

Do you think that Ashley (or Llambias) is aware of the tremendous fillip the team spirit contributes, and further, how easily and quickly that could be eroded by continually transferring the better players out whilst crossing ones fingers about the players transferred in? So far we only have the sale of Carroll to hypothesise on, sales preceding that one were at a different time and under different circumstances. I am uneasy as he (Ashley) can be such a loose cannon, but am prepared to wait until the end of the summer transfer window before I make any deductions about what the future holds.

 

Nope. They come from a different world, more Apprentice-style shouting, bullshit and betrayal than teamwork, loyalty and contentment. There was an epic culture-clash between Llambias and Hughton.

[Mr Logic]

 

1) Other clubs are run with other ambitions. In footballing terms, there are clear restraints to what I'm proposing, so it will not be popular with everyone.

 

2) There's been a semi-artificial barrier of fear between clubs and relegation from the Premiership. Ashley was forced through that and found things need not be so bad.

 

3) Strategy is contextual. It's not only about aims but means. We're the stupidest big club in England, not a highly-efficient little club, which makes us nice to own. There are a number of 'tweener' clubs who float between the top two divisions and are financially healthy, but not necessarily hugely profitable. This is because they tend to have lower or less loyal supports, and are less attractive as clubs, lacking the stadium, reputation and history that the average 20-something footballer will be even vaguely aware of. It may not mean a huge amount, but it does at least mean something for Leon Best to play in our colours, and even mercenaries will recognise St James Park as being a bigger stage to showcase their talents in. Combined with our essential financial muscle, we play by different rules to all but a handful of clubs (and they're generally already successful, so their owners don't need to think about ways of recouping their investment even if that was their only interest...).

 

4) It seems I can't stress enough to you how much the plan I identify is centred on minimising risk. Profit is a bonus, albeit one he's likely to get and will be delighted to receive. His main aim, however, is never to stretch himself in such a way that creates the risk of serious loss, with only smaller, more affordable risks taken for potentially massive reward (the ones where winning some and losing some see you coming out massively ahead - e.g. Routledge (no loss) and Tiote (big gain))

 

5) Just because you think it's not a sensible approach to running a football club, just because lots of people don't, it doesn't mean Ashley and Llambias agree. I reckon Llambias, the day to day decision maker, in particular reckons they're uncommonly savvy guys who know how to pull moves and have a lot of good ideas about the game. (This is more for the Teasy post I haven't addressed yet)

 

Do you think that Ashley (or Llambias) is aware of the tremendous fillip the team spirit contributes, and further, how easily and quickly that could be eroded by continually transferring the better players out whilst crossing ones fingers about the players transferred in? So far we only have the sale of Carroll to hypothesise on, sales preceding that one were at a different time and under different circumstances. I am uneasy as he (Ashley) can be such a loose cannon, but am prepared to wait until the end of the summer transfer window before I make any deductions about what the future holds.

 

Nope. They come from a different world, more Apprentice-style shouting, bullshit and betrayal than teamwork, loyalty and contentment.

 

Sadly, as I read your response, I got the distinct impression you'd hit the proverbial nail.

[Dave]

The single most annoying thing about all this is that we couldn't have wished for a better season to come back up. Everyone beating each other, established clubs doing shit and going through their own turmoil, and generally the most open league in yonks. Most were hoping to merely survive and yet we're possibly going to finish top half, by no means a million miles from European qualification. We already have a number of really talented players (albeit one fewer than there was a month ago) and with a few good additions we'd be a genuine force to be reckoned with. It's a fucking dream situation to try capitalise on and push the club onwards and upwards.

 

Will we do so?

[Teasy]

I'll try and keep this short and sweet given my prior post.

 

Fucking hell man, that's not short and sweet.  I'll respond eventually like but that's a lot to reply to, I'm off next week like

[TRon]

The single most annoying thing about all this is that we couldn't have wished for a better season to come back up. Everyone beating each other, established clubs doing shit and going through their own turmoil, and generally the most open league in yonks. Most were hoping to merely survive and yet we're possibly going to finish top half, by no means a million miles from European qualification. We already have a number of really talented players (albeit one fewer than there was a month ago) and with a few good additions we'd be a genuine force to be reckoned with. It's a fucking dream situation to try capitalise on and push the club onwards and upwards.

 

Will we do so?

 

Ashley will never have a better platform to show that he wants to run the club in the right way. The cash injection from the Carroll sale means he won't even have to take daft risks pursuing success like we have previously. We  are at a crossroads at then end of this campaign. I would love to say with confidence that I think he'll do the right thing but in all honesty it wouldn't surprise me if he put the club up for sale again in order not to have to take that responsibility.

[hakka]

The single most annoying thing about all this is that we couldn't have wished for a better season to come back up. Everyone beating each other, established clubs doing shit and going through their own turmoil, and generally the most open league in yonks. Most were hoping to merely survive and yet we're possibly going to finish top half, by no means a million miles from European qualification. We already have a number of really talented players (albeit one fewer than there was a month ago) and with a few good additions we'd be a genuine force to be reckoned with. It's a fucking dream situation to try capitalise on and push the club onwards and upwards.

 

Will we do so?

 

Ashley will never have a better platform to show that he wants to run the club in the right way. The cash injection from the Carroll sale means he won't even have to take daft risks pursuing success like we have previously. We  are at a crossroads at then end of this campaign. I would love to say with confidence that I think he'll do the right thing but in all honesty it wouldn't surprise me if he put the club up for sale again in order not to have to take that responsibility.

 

Both good posts. I think the team could perform better next year even with just a full season out of Ben Arfa and Gosling, imagine if we can add a few more quality players - European challenge would seem realistic.

[80]

I'll try and keep this short and sweet given my prior post.

 

Fucking hell man, that's not short and sweet.  I'll respond eventually like but that's a lot to reply to, I'm off next week like

 

Verbal/manual diarrhoea

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I tend to agree Punk, Shepherd undoubtedly had 'ambition', but he risked the future of the club and still didn't achieve lasting success.

 

Ashley has made fucking awful errors, and probably will again, but fortunately those haven't affected us that badly on the pitch. In the meantime the club is being put on a much sounder footing.

 

Clearly Ashley's first concern is to look after the finances for a while, any 'ambition' or lack of it has to be understood in that context. I think he would like success and progress, but only if it is achievable within his restrained financial plan.

 

Fucking hell man Ian, we got relegated. That's about the worst thing that can happen to a club of our size.

 

Yeah, I thought that as I was posting that to be honest! I decided to leave it in because we bounced back so quickly and probably in better shape than before.

 

So it could have been the worst possible thing to happen to us, but in the end it wasn't.

 

That's the way with a lot of things we considered to be mistakes from Ashley (inc Hughton sacking)... quite a lot of them he's actually got away with.

[midds]

(not so) Random bump.

 

Just been browsing some threads from a few months back. Very interesting reading. 

[Interpolic]

You need to spend money, if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. So hopefully they spend it and spend it wisely and if you bring certain characters into this dressing room they will buy into the work ethic. That might not have happened four or five years ago.

 

I know it’s the nature of this club that it’s stop-start. As soon as we get something going players get sold and then we have to start again.

 

We’ve got some good players and if we can add more to that in the summer then we’ve got the basis, a spine of a top side that is capable of challenging for Europe.

 

This squad wants to keep pushing on but we need to compete on all fronts. It’s up to the men upstairs to make sure we amass a squad and get the bodies to do that.

 

Ah FFS.

[p_cowell141]

50 people thought we'd spend over 25 million...how gullable are we? 

[The Prophet]

50 people thought we'd spend over 25 million...how gullable are we? 

 

No one likes a hindsight merchant

[ponsaelius]

(not so) Random bump.

 

Just been browsing some threads from a few months back. Very interesting reading. 

 

Dread to think some of the shite I've posted. 

[Skirge]

I went for 15 to 20

[Mick]

I went for We'll make a profit.