AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 It's hard to compare eras, because the club changed completely during the course of the Keegan - Hall era, and of course at the same time English football changed with the Premier league. Previously, we'd been left behind by other clubs, and ended up as a yo-yo club with an under-developed stadium, despite the strong local support. Unfortunately, by the time we'd caught up, it was an era when it was far more difficult to win trophies, and certain clubs were beginning to monopolise the top places and the trophies. Expectations have changed. The nineties opened up the possibility of actually winning the league, whereas before - although that dream was there - we were more content with minor successes. Previously, we never came close to winning the league and only appeared in two cup finals, but we cherished those good moments like Supermac's hat-trick against Liverpool. Personally, I wouldn't want to go back to the old times. Basically, the standard of football is so much better now. I don't mean us in particular, I mean generally. There's a relentless pessimism about this board at the moment, which I don't share. I'm not filled with joyous optimism either, but it's not as though previous regimes - even the one where we were spending big money - have brought us trophies. And lots of people on here seem to know exactly what Ashley is thinking and exactly what's going to happen in the future. Let's just see. What do you think he's thinking? I don't know. Sometimes he acts on sentiment and impulse, sometimes he's hard-headed and calculating. What a safe answer. What do you think Ashley's vision for the club is? When you say 'people know what he's thinking', I'm assuming you're referring to those who are convinced that he has no ambition beyond survival/advertising SD... don't you agree with that? Not trying to be an arse, btw. I'd say his plan was to be as successful as possible within the discipline of balancing the books, through a productive youth system, keeping a rein on wages, and a discriminating transfer policy of buying players whose value is likely to increase rather than decrease. He said that right at the start. The club and Pardew have come out with various statements which have been interpreted very negatively. Aiming to finish in the top eight every season is seen as not interested in finishing above 8th, whereas it actually means 8th is the minimum. Prioritising the league against the cups is seen as not interested in winning a cup, whereas every single club in the Premiership prioritises the league in the same way and for similar reasons. The mixed feelings about the Europa Cup - which I think come as much from Pardew as the Board - have some validity. But because Ashley is hated and distrusted, it all becomes part of some evil masterplan to keep us in exactly the same position that we are now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Productive youth system. Won't even employ enough coaches to get the academy up to Category A, I can certainly see where you've got that idea from. Your arse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 :lol: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Honestly. We're interested in finishing above 8th but we're dubious about getting into the Europa League, and that "has some validity". Contradict yourself much? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 £11m paid off his loan the accounts before last, a £10m profit in the most recent, a complete refusal to sell good advertising space to increase our spending power, no permanent transfers in 2 transfer windows, numerous players leaving and therefore off the wage bill, etc etc. "His plan is to be as successful as possible within the discipline of balancing the books". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Ian's customary thup to any post that goes against the grain in defence of *insert name here* Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I'd say his plan was to be as successful as possible within the discipline of balancing the books, through a productive youth system, keeping a rein on wages, and a discriminating transfer policy of buying players whose value is likely to increase rather than decrease. He said that right at the start. The club and Pardew have come out with various statements which have been interpreted very negatively. Aiming to finish in the top eight every season is seen as not interested in finishing above 8th, whereas it actually means 8th is the minimum. Prioritising the league against the cups is seen as not interested in winning a cup, whereas every single club in the Premiership prioritises the league in the same way and for similar reasons. The mixed feelings about the Europa Cup - which I think come as much from Pardew as the Board - have some validity. But because Ashley is hated and distrusted, it all becomes part of some evil masterplan to keep us in exactly the same position that we are now. The thing is, the negative interpretations of Pardew's/the board's comments have been validated: Aiming to finish in the top eight every season is seen as not interested in finishing above 8th, whereas it actually means 8th is the minimum. I don't see why we Alan Pardew would still be here if Ashley had any aspirations of having 8th as a minimum. Last season is the obvious example. Although I suppose one argument is that Ashley may have fallen for the Europa League excuse and given him the benefit of the doubt. But, as per the negative interpretations, I do believe they see 8th as a safe maximum. Maximum cash return whilst avoiding EL. Prioritising the league against the cups is seen as not interested in winning a cup Had we not crumbled at the early stages in every single campaign since Ashley arrived - aside from games that are impossible to lose, like Morecambe - I would be inclined to believe we had an interest in winning a cup (and thus qualifying for the EL). Like I say, the negative interpretation has been validated here by hard facts. The mixed feelings about the Europa Cup - which I think come as much from Pardew as the Board - have some validity. Yep. ... Then there's: £11m paid off his loan the accounts before last, a £10m profit in the most recent, a complete refusal to sell good advertising space to increase our spending power, no permanent transfers in 2 transfer windows, numerous players leaving and therefore off the wage bill, etc etc. ... Then there's down-right rancid stuff like putting Wise ahead of Kevin Keegan, not giving Hughton an assistant then slinging him, renaming the stadium, utterly covering it in blue and red, appointing Joe Kinnear, getting Puma, getting Wonga, etc etc etc. The list goes on. It's ridiculously easy to see why people hate Ashley. The overall policy that they laid out at the very beginning had good aspects. And I do still believe that there are good aspects to the way we run the club. I've said before... I'd much rather be successful via a transfer policy like ours (save for one or two major tweaks), than simply buying success like Man City have, as if it's some cheat code on a computer game. But I can't get away from the fact that Ashley sees 8th (or 7th, now, thanks to this weekend's results ) as the ceiling, all the while commandeering £5m-a-year's worth of advertising space for his tat shop. That's an opinion that's based on facts as well as soundbites. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 We treat the FA Cup and League Cup EXACTLY the same as every other Premier League club. Just sheer coincidence that we get knocked out by significantly inferior opposition (usually at least a division, sometimes 3) every single year having dropped most of our best players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 We treat the FA Cup and League Cup EXACTLY the same as every other Premier League club. Just sheer coincidence that we get knocked out by significantly inferior opposition (usually at least a division, sometimes 3) every single year having dropped most of our best players. In the last 6 years alone we've seen Portsmouth (twice), Cardiff, Everton, Stoke and Wigan reach FA Cup finals. League Cup we've seen Villa, Birmingham, Cardiff, Swansea, Bradford and Sunderland get to Wembley. And that's without looking at quarter/semi finals, which were full of inferior teams/clubs to us. I was at Stevenage and Brighton (2nd time) and we were quite clearly going through the motions on the day, and that's without the mysterious injuries, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Ian's customary thup to any post that goes against the grain in defence of *insert name here* Well it's pointless making many actual posts. I would say everyone agrees with other posters from time to time like, to be fair to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 That thing about a minimum of 8th btw. It's currently 10th. Two years after finishing 5th. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I've always thought it makes it worse, the fact that we do often sign really good players. Alan Pardew managing Hatem Ben Arfa ffs. That's why I've got absolutely no time for the "it's all Ashley's fault" lot... I mean obviously it is, because he hired the horrible cunt, but a trained chimp could get more out of a player like Ben Arfa than Pardew can. When we had Glenn Roeder in charge, and were signing Craig Moore, there was a sense of "the whole fucking lot needs overhauling" but the current situation doesn't. Graham Carr must pull his hair out when he sees what's happened to Yanga-Mbiwa. If he had any hair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spudil Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Ian's customary thup to any post that goes against the grain in defence of *insert name here* Well it's pointless making many actual posts. I would say everyone agrees with other posters from time to time like, to be fair to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I've always thought it makes it worse, the fact that we do often sign really good players. Alan Pardew managing Hatem Ben Arfa ffs. That's why I've got absolutely no time for the "it's all Ashley's fault" lot... I mean obviously it is, because he hired the horrible cunt, but a trained chimp could get more out of a player like Ben Arfa than Pardew can. When we had Glenn Roeder in charge, and were signing Craig Moore, there was a sense of "the whole fucking lot needs overhauling" but the current situation doesn't. Graham Carr must pull his hair out when he sees what's happened to Yanga-Mbiwa. If he had any hair. I'm a bit like that. I could go on and on about how we should put the money forward for better players. But then, on the odd occasion we break the mould and do so, I'm like... oh yeah... now Pards. If we're stupid/unambitious/'whatever you want to call it' enough to put our trust in Pardew - we should be signing players that are tailored to him, so he can get the best out of them. But then I suppose: quality flair players + a shite manager = 8th. So it works for em. Ashley's got it perfect atm. It's why I can't, for the life of me, understand it when people reckon the guy might get sacked. He is doing the perfect job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I've always thought it makes it worse, the fact that we do often sign really good players. Alan Pardew managing Hatem Ben Arfa ffs. That's why I've got absolutely no time for the "it's all Ashley's fault" lot... I mean obviously it is, because he hired the horrible cunt, but a trained chimp could get more out of a player like Ben Arfa than Pardew can. When we had Glenn Roeder in charge, and were signing Craig Moore, there was a sense of "the whole fucking lot needs overhauling" but the current situation doesn't. Graham Carr must pull his hair out when he sees what's happened to Yanga-Mbiwa. If he had any hair. I'm a bit like that. I could go on and on about how we should put the money forward for better players. But then, on the odd occasion we break the mould and do so, I'm like... oh yeah... now Pards. If we're stupid/unambitious/'whatever you want to call it' enough to put our trust in Pardew - we should be signing players that are tailored to him, so he can get the best out of them. But then I suppose: quality flair players + a shite manager = 8th. So it works for em. Ashley's got it perfect atm. It's why I can't, for the life of me, understand it when people reckon the guy might get sacked. He is doing the perfect job. Are you seriously saying that Ashley has deliberately appointed a bad manager so that we don't finish higher than 8th? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I've always thought it makes it worse, the fact that we do often sign really good players. Alan Pardew managing Hatem Ben Arfa ffs. That's why I've got absolutely no time for the "it's all Ashley's fault" lot... I mean obviously it is, because he hired the horrible cunt, but a trained chimp could get more out of a player like Ben Arfa than Pardew can. When we had Glenn Roeder in charge, and were signing Craig Moore, there was a sense of "the whole fucking lot needs overhauling" but the current situation doesn't. Graham Carr must pull his hair out when he sees what's happened to Yanga-Mbiwa. If he had any hair. I'm a bit like that. I could go on and on about how we should put the money forward for better players. But then, on the odd occasion we break the mould and do so, I'm like... oh yeah... now Pards. If we're stupid/unambitious/'whatever you want to call it' enough to put our trust in Pardew - we should be signing players that are tailored to him, so he can get the best out of them. But then I suppose: quality flair players + a shite manager = 8th. So it works for em. Ashley's got it perfect atm. It's why I can't, for the life of me, understand it when people reckon the guy might get sacked. He is doing the perfect job. Are you seriously saying that Ashley has deliberately appointed a bad manager so that we don't finish higher than 8th? No. I'd be astonished if the guy knew what a good or bad manager was. But he is bound to be delighted with how things are going and therefore wouldn't even consider sacking him. He didn't sack him when we were on the cusp of relegation, never mind in glorious no-man's land like we are now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Plus, off the pitch Pardew has done a solid job of lowering expectations. Another thing I believe Ashley has tried to enforce. Pards is his perfect, regardless of the fact he's an extremely meh manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanj Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 At first glance, I get mixed up with Yorkie and Ian's avatars ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belfast Mags Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Two peas in a pod, those guys Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Honestly. We're interested in finishing above 8th but we're dubious about getting into the Europa League, and that "has some validity". Contradict yourself much? He didn't, in the slightest. "We aim to finish at least 8th, however we have mixed feelings about the Europa League" is not contradictory. And yes, having mixed feelings about the Europa League is valid. I think an awful lot of clubs and an awful lot of fans have mixed feelings about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 10th. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrettNUFC Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Brett having RG as his reminds me of Rocker (when he had his RG avatar). Couldn't be further apart as posters and it's always a let down when I realise http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/omgdurr.gif Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Honestly. We're interested in finishing above 8th but we're dubious about getting into the Europa League, and that "has some validity". Contradict yourself much? He didn't, in the slightest. "We aim to finish at least 8th, however we have mixed feelings about the Europa League" is not contradictory. And yes, having mixed feelings about the Europa League is valid. I think an awful lot of clubs and an awful lot of fans have mixed feelings about it. It is contradictory - if we finish higher than 8th (depending on the circumstances in the league that year) then we risk qualifying for the Europa League. Manager and club staff don't want to qualify for the Europa League. See Pardew's "Thank God we're not in the Europa League next season", his regular moaning about the competition's format since, and that fan meeting the other week where they basically said it wasn't worth bothering with. If you think we're pushing to get into a competition that we quite clearly detest then you're daft. If you think we're aiming higher (i.e. Champions League) while not making any permanent signings for 12 months then you're daft. So we are, in effect, creating our own glass ceiling - hovering around in 8th while moaning that the Europa League isn't a good enough competition for us to compete in (having not won anything for 40-odd years). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
loki679 Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Honestly. We're interested in finishing above 8th but we're dubious about getting into the Europa League, and that "has some validity". Contradict yourself much? He didn't, in the slightest. "We aim to finish at least 8th, however we have mixed feelings about the Europa League" is not contradictory. And yes, having mixed feelings about the Europa League is valid. I think an awful lot of clubs and an awful lot of fans have mixed feelings about it. Wouldn't want europe to jeopardise our chances of getting into europe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Interpolic wrote: It is contradictory - if we finish higher than 8th (depending on the circumstances in the league that year) then we risk qualifying for the Europa League. Manager and club staff don't want to qualify for the Europa League. See Pardew's "Thank God we're not in the Europa League next season", his regular moaning about the competition's format since, and that fan meeting the other week where they basically said it wasn't worth bothering with. If you think we're pushing to get into a competition that we quite clearly detest then you're daft. If you think we're aiming higher (i.e. Champions League) while not making any permanent signings for 12 months then you're daft. So we are, in effect, creating our own glass ceiling - hovering around in 8th while moaning that the Europa League isn't a good enough competition for us to compete in (having not won anything for 40-odd years). All those are lovely points but I don't care about them right now. There's a thing that happens on this forum where people totally ignore actual posts and instead argue against a related point that annoys them. It's pretty stupid and contributes to debates going round in circles a lot. It's the reason why anybody who offers anything but constant condemnation of Ashley and Pardew gets jumped on, because it's interpreted as a defence of everything they're doing. Let's look at what Cronky actually wrote: "The club and Pardew have come out with various statements which have been interpreted very negatively. Aiming to finish in the top eight every season is seen as not interested in finishing above 8th, whereas it actually means 8th is the minimum." Arguably true. I don't have the wording of those statements to hand, but I certainly don't believe Pardew is under instructions to finish no higher than 8th. I think Pardew personally would rather finish as high as possible. Ashley might not fancy making the investment to guarantee a Europa or CL finish at this point, but.... anyway all of that is irrevant. Is Cronky saying anything contradictory? "Prioritising the league against the cups is seen as not interested in winning a cup, whereas every single club in the Premiership prioritises the league in the same way and for similar reasons." Absolutely true. Resting players for no good reason v Cardiff was absolutely scancalous but, while shit, not trying in the cups in the mistaken belief it'll make a gigantic difference to their league campaign is something that a huge majority of clubs do. "The mixed feelings about the Europa Cup - which I think come as much from Pardew as the Board - have some validity." True. I have mixed feelings about the Europa League, most clubs do and I think most fans do. They know that while it's nice to get into Europe, it can mess with your season particularly if you lack squad depth. Those mixed feelings do have some validity. But because Ashley is hated and distrusted, it all becomes part of some evil masterplan to keep us in exactly the same position that we are now. Damn right. You get some amazingly paranoid speculation on here about Ashley's supposed mission to keep the club down. Anyway. Number of contradictions in Cronky's post: 0 contradictions, because what he didn't say is "Trying to finish in the top 7 yet not wanting to qualify for the Europa league is valid". He said "I think we're probably trying to finish top 8, but having mixed feelings about the Europa league is valid," which is totally totally acceptable and not contradictory in the slightest. I wouldn't have bothered going over it like that but having spent too much time in the past repeatedly explaining simple points to outraged posters who assume I'm defending Ashley and Pardew to the hilt, people not being arsed to read on here irks me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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