Dogawful Officiating - Dave Coote suspended

[RS]

Seems a strange coincidence one of the big 6 getting a hand to stay in the champions league race and us getting a couple of dubious VAR decisions against us. Almost like there’s some collusion. 

[Skeletor]

8 minutes ago, RS said:

Seems a strange coincidence one of the big 6 getting a hand to stay in the champions league race and us getting a couple of dubious VAR decisions against us. Almost like there’s some collusion. 

 

Also no explanation in the apology as to how they got such an obvious penalty decision wrong.

 

[Stifler]

1 hour ago, joeyt said:

 

And the standard of refereeing is fine in other leagues?

I have been watching the Canadian Premier League which I admit is a lower standard. It is about to start it’s 5th season and is the 1st professional football/soccer league in Canada.

They do not have VAR, and they do not have goal line technology. In the 4 years of playing they have not once had a decision as controversial as either of decisions in our game yesterday, or in Brightons.

We have the technology, the funding, and 150 years of history of the sport and have these controversial decisions week in week out, sometimes like yesterday, multiple in 1 game.

[toon25]

PGMOL 'apologies' are so fucking hollow, like.

 

There surely has to be some sort of compensation factored in, by way of points or coin when there's such obvious errors that impact on teams like this.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

The apologies should stop unless they publish a proper plan about how to fix VAR and the handball and offside rules. Pointless apologising otherwise. 

[Pokerprince2004]

Didn't Brighton receive an apology just last month from PGMOL when they had a goal ruled offside because some clown drew the line on the wrong player (against Palace I think?) 

 

I'd make a statement if I were them saying an apology isnt enough but nowt more they can do really? Legal action would never win

[Stifler]

Just now, Pokerprince2004 said:

Didn't Brighton receive an apology just last month from PGMOL when they had a goal ruled offside because some clown drew the line on the wrong player (against Palace I think?) 

 

I'd make a statement if I were them saying an apology isnt enough but nowt more they can do really? Legal action would never win

They would get fined for bringing the officiating into disrepute.

[vic]

How come Spurs have high def cameras and multiple views of incidents and we have one grainy image .

[midds]

Couple of things about VAR I'm pretty uncomfortable with - firstly the idea that it's a 'mistake'. It's absolutely not a mistake or an accident. That Brighton pen yesterday wasn't a 'mistake', it was a conscious and measured decision that took a few minutes to be decided by several individuals as a collective. They looked at it again and again from different angles and decided it wasn't a pen in a huge game at a vital time in the game. A mistake is stepping in a puddle or something like that, it's also usually involuntary and spontaneous. That decision was the exact opposite of a mistake.

 

Secondly, the narrative straight away is that 'Brighton was robbed' and they were. They got the big (meaningless) public apology this morning and that will be that case closed. More people should be looking at who is directly benefitting directly from decisions like that. The focus is 100% on how Brighton lost out and 0% on how Spurs benefitted. If it's the same clubs benefitting again and again and again then maybe something will be done about it. That one decision potentially saw a 6 point swing from a Brighton win into a Spurs win. The fact it was massively dodgy and important and went directly in favour of Spurs should be the big talking point here. It's a bigger deal than just 'Brighton got robbed'

[Hanshithispantz]

The problem is the 'clear and obvious' nonsense and I fear Howard Webb is going to complete wrong way about trying to improve VAR by trying to make it less impactful - I think a lot of people wrongly believe this is the right way to go too because they're sick of VAR. You have to get rid of it pretty much completely though if that's the route you take, and they won't.

 

The challenge on Mitoma is getting a lot of attention (and forced an apology) because it was accompanied by other decisions which went against Brighton, but it's no worse than what we've seen against Schar (Stones vs City / Adams vs Leeds), Fraser (Last season, Ederson vs City), even Jimenez (for Wolves against Pope) and Ronaldo (for Man Utd against Trippier) and many others.

 

Mitoma not being in complete control of the ball will have been what swayed the decision (along with any unconscious bias). It's pretty obvious VARs have been instructed to look at things like that, and whether or not the player is moving into a threatening part of the penalty area when making these calls. It's stupid.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Hanshithispantz

[madras]

11 minutes ago, Hanshithispantz said:

The problem is the 'clear and obvious' nonsense and I fear Howard Webb is going to complete wrong way about trying to improve VAR by trying to make it less impactful - I think a lot of people wrongly believe this is the right way to go too because they're sick of VAR. You have to get rid of it pretty much completely though if that's the route you take, and they won't.

 

The challenge on Mitoma is getting a lot of attention (and forced an apology) because it was accompanied by other decisions which went against Brighton, but it's no worse than what we've seen against Schar (Stones vs City / Adams vs Leeds), Fraser (Last season, Ederson vs City), even Jimenez (for Wolves against Pope) and Ronaldo (for Man Utd against Trippier) and many others.

 

Mitoma not being in complete control of the ball will have been what swayed the decision (along with any unconscious bias). It's pretty obvious VARs have been instructed to look at things like that, and whether or not the player is moving into a threatening part of the penalty area when making these calls. It's stupid.

 

 

 

Wasn't the "control of the ball" thing dismissed a while back. Weren't we on the receiving end again but can't remember the occasion.

[Hanshithispantz]

Just now, madras said:

Wasn't the "control of the ball" thing dismissed a while back. Weren't we on the receiving end again but can't remember the occasion.

I've no doubt there will be many times where they've given it, I don't think they've actually changed the rules or out on penalties (where context doesn't matter in that regard, a foul is a foul). I just think it's pretty clear that one of the things they take into consideration when reviewing VAR for challenges in the box is how dangerous a position the player was in. If Mitoma was through on goal and that happened it's given 100%, but that shouldn't matter.

[Sean]

It would be pretty naive to think that teams paying/pressuring officials only happens in places like Italy and Spain. Some of the decisions we see here go beyond incompetence into a whole other territory.

[80]

1 hour ago, Sean said:

It would be pretty naive to think that teams paying/pressuring officials only happens in places like Italy and Spain. Some of the decisions we see here go beyond incompetence into a whole other territory.

And spot fixing for high stake gambling. Don't forget that. It's why fixating on whether some teams benefit more than others overall is totally naive.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by 80

[huss9]

the shite decisions against brighton havent just adversely affected them, its directly affected us and manu also by keeping spurs in the race for champions league.

apologies mean nothing if they have to be made than once.

[Geordie Ahmed]

Arsenal wasting time? Nah, surely not 

[St. Maximin]

Might be my ignorance as someone who doesn’t referee, but I’m pretty sure we could significantly improve VAR through, in addition to some solid evaluation of issues, not employing idiots. I often rightly hear about the issues of subjectivity and determining what is ‘clear and obvious’, but both of those Brighton penalties weren’t down to issues of subjectivity but down to the fact the people operating were idiots (or corrupt/both). Refs not giving those are perfect arguments for a system that involves video replays where someone who isn’t a complete idiot can take a quick look and overturn them. Shouldn’t be hard really. 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by St. Maximin

[80]

I take your point but there's no way that the refereeing system has, accidentally or otherwise, exclusively hired intellectual deficients. It's a feature, not a bug.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by 80

[joeyt]

Dermot Gallagher and Stephen Warnock both agreeing it shouldn't have been a penalty by Isak at the weekend

[Pancrate1892]

On 09/04/2023 at 13:14, vic said:

How come Spurs have high def cameras and multiple views of incidents and we have one grainy image .

Anfield have both. They gave the grainy image one for the opposition and for them it has the HD one with 7000 views.

[Guest]

VAR

 

• Only watched in real time
• Decision to be made within 60 seconds
• Goals to be checked
• Some kind of Football Ombudsmen turd to watch and listen to what's going on in VAR room
• Communication between ref and VAR team to be broadcast for transparency
• If VAR team using leading language, refs decision should stand

[Kaizero]

VAR was used for the first time in the Norwegian Premier Division today. The referees have agreed unanimously how to apply it and in what situations. Also, our refs face the media post-match. The first major VAR overturn was a yellow card changed to a red card, a goal was also overturned for a microscopic offside. Following the match the ref said:

 

"In honesty it's a bit of a classic midfield situation. It happens unexpectedly so my attention isn't fully on the incident at the momet it occurs. I assume the opinion of everyone seeing it happen real time without focusing on that exact part of the pitch matches what my own opinion on the pitch was; that it was a yellow card challenge. But then I get called to review the incident on the VAR screen, where at first I got to review photos of the challenge - after which I still thought I made the right decision. But once I saw the video footage I knew I had made the wrong decision, because that was a red card challenge any day of the week. The force the player enters the challenge with is a red card offense and no referee would have caught that on the pitch.

 

The overturned goal due to offside however is us following the laws of the game by utilizing the technology available to us. Without VAR there is no way a linesman could see that was offside and I am sure people at home will argue that it was unecessary to overturn a goal due based on such small margins. That is the reality however, the player was undeniably in an offside position so the goal gets overturned. I have to apply the rules of the game and I can't ignore evidence. If it should be the law that when a player happens to be offside by such extremely small margins that only camers with ultra high frame rates is able to catch it is not up to me or for me to have an opinion on, I just enfore the rules as they are at any given time."

 

If the PL had the same type of openness about referee decisions and the referees actually agreed on how to apply VAR and no to apply VAR, I think VAR in the PL would work a lot better.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Kaizero

[madras]

2 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

VAR was used for the first time in the Norwegian Premier Division today. The referees have agreed unanimously how to apply it and in what situations. Also, our refs face the media post-match. The first major VAR overturn was a yellow card changed to a red card, a goal was also overturned for a microscopic offside. Following the match the ref said:

 

"In honesty it's a bit of a classic midfield situation. It happens unexpectedly so my attention isn't fully on the incident at the momet it occurs. I assume the opinion of most, like my own opinion on the pitch, was that it was a yellow card challenge. Then I get called to check out the VAR screen, at first I see still photos of it and thought I made the right decision. But then, once I saw the video footage, I knew I had made the wrong decision because that was a red card challenge any day of the week due to the force the player enters the challenge with.

 

The overturned goal due to offside however is us following the laws of the game by utilizing the technology available to us. Without VAR there is no way a linesman could see that was offside and I am sure people at home will argue that it was unecessary to overturn a goal due based on such small margins. That is the reality however, the player was undeniably in an offside position so the goal gets overturned. I have to apply the rules of the game and I can't ignore evidence. If it should be the law that when a player happens to be offside by such extremely small margins that only camers with ultra high frame rates is able to catch it is not up to me or for me to have an opinion on, I just enfore the rules as they are at any given time."

 

If the PL had the same type of openness about referee decisions and the referees actually agreed on how to apply VAR and no to apply VAR, I think VAR in the PL would work a lot better.

 

 

 

Lets see what happens if and when they getvstuff wrong (Spurs Brighton style). Its not VAR that's the problem, it's the reading of it and that's makes it more annoying.

 

 

On a side note I'm getting pissed off with people saying "you can't celebrate a goalbbecause of VAR"....Bollocks ! The vast majority of goals you watch and you know if there's doubt and most are straightforward and you jump about like a loon like you always have done.

[Kaizero]

2 minutes ago, madras said:

Lets see what happens if and when they getvstuff wrong (Spurs Brighton style). Its not VAR that's the problem, it's the reading of it and that's makes it more annoying.

 

Fully agree. It's extremely idiotic that there's no common agreed consensus amongst all PL referees on how to apply VAR and in what situations to do so. 

 

Also, the refs being held above accountability. In my opinion an elite referee is an elite athlete within their own "sport". They should be available for post-match interviews on the same level as the players and have to answer the same dumb journo questions.

[madras]

3 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

Fully agree. It's extremely idiotic that there's no common agreed consensus amongst all PL referees on how to apply VAR and in what situations to do so. 

 

Also, the refs being held above accountability. In my opinion an elite referee is an elite athlete within their own "sport". They should be available for post-match interviews on the same level as the players and have to answer the same dumb journo questions.

I think they know how and when to apply it, Spurs/Brighton was proof, it's just they arrived at completely incomprehensible conclusions.

 

I'm coming round to having them explain their reasoning.