ponsaelius Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 His best position from what we've seen is wide in a 4 man midfield, a position he's filled for 45 minutes this season and 1 game last season. He scored 2 of the best goals I've ever seen from an NUFC player in those two games and was comfortably the best player on the pitch in both too. He's spent the season having cameo roles and being shunted about the pitch in different positions, playing when a number of our best players are unavailable and having the system ludicrously changed to - for some reason - avoid playing him on the wing at all costs. Even despite all this he's contributed 3 goals and 3 assists in his time on the pitch. for all he played wide both the goals came from him getting the ball centrally. Well yeah, the idea if he plays wide is he can drift inside to cause havoc and has two strikers to link up with, occupy defenders and offer movement. Wide players in a 4-4-2 don't have to be crossing machines the way Pardew seems to think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnypd Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 His best position from what we've seen is wide in a 4 man midfield, a position he's filled for 45 minutes this season and 1 game last season. He scored 2 of the best goals I've ever seen from an NUFC player in those two games and was comfortably the best player on the pitch in both too. He's spent the season having cameo roles and being shunted about the pitch in different positions, playing when a number of our best players are unavailable and having the system ludicrously changed to - for some reason - avoid playing him on the wing at all costs. Even despite all this he's contributed 3 goals and 3 assists in his time on the pitch. for all he played wide both the goals came from him getting the ball centrally. Well yeah, the idea if he plays wide is he can drift inside to cause havoc and has two strikers to both link up with and offer movement. Wide players in a 4-4-2 don't have to be crossing machines the way Pardew seems to think. even not playing well ben arfa still managed to cut inside and have two dangerous shots on goal. and that's with wolves sitting back to play for the point and putting two men on ben arfa. and also having next to no movement around him. he basically ended up standing still on the ball with two players blocking his path. not easy to make stuff happen in that situation but - it'll happen again if he keeps coming on late in the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Another thing with having Jonas on one side on Ben Arfa on the other is they could easily swap wings during a match. This is not possible with one of the other options playing. I actually find it amazing we haven't played with both on either flank at any point this season. It seems such an obvious thing to try. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 even not playing well ben arfa still managed to cut inside and have two dangerous shots on goal. and that's with wolves sitting back to play for the point and putting two men on ben arfa. and also having next to no movement around him. he basically ended up standing still on the ball with two players blocking his path. not easy to make stuff happen in that situation but - it'll happen again if he keeps coming on late in the game. The lack of movement has been there all season and is arguably the biggest problem. It clearly stems from the rigid, methodical style of play we have where defensive solidity is the priority - less a tactical/formational thing (the same problem was there when we've played 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1 etc) and more so a coaching and mentality thing. Less time spent on defensive solidity and more time spent on encouraging progressive football would be the order of the day, unfortunately it's becoming more clear we won't even try it. I feel daft because I've always maintained that at some point things would click in this sense once we had a full XI but it's just looking less likely all the time. Kind of glad Marveaux got injured. He's another that would have been completely underutilised. Would have probably only ever been used as backup crossing machine for Jonas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlacknWhiteArmy Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I'd love to see him and Santon out wide Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Another thing with having Jonas on one side on Ben Arfa on the other is they could easily swap wings during a match. This is not possible with one of the other options playing. I actually find it amazing we haven't played with both on either flank at any point this season. It seems such an obvious thing to try. that means movement which appears to be frowned upon. re the other options but. obertan played a good few times for man utd on the left. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Another thing with having Jonas on one side on Ben Arfa on the other is they could easily swap wings during a match. This is not possible with one of the other options playing. I actually find it amazing we haven't played with both on either flank at any point this season. It seems such an obvious thing to try. that means movement which appears to be frowned upon. re the other options but. obertan played a good few times for man utd on the left. Just done a post on the movement thing Didn't Obertan play wide left in a 4-3-3 when he was at Manure though? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keefaz Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Another thing with having Jonas on one side on Ben Arfa on the other is they could easily swap wings during a match. This is not possible with one of the other options playing. I actually find it amazing we haven't played with both on either flank at any point this season. It seems such an obvious thing to try. Seems the most logical idea, tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Btw one of the best arguments for focusing on defensive solidity above all else was that it was getting us results earlier in the season. The fact that it is our primary focus and we have the 14th worst defence in the league is a bit , no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Another thing with having Jonas on one side on Ben Arfa on the other is they could easily swap wings during a match. This is not possible with one of the other options playing. I actually find it amazing we haven't played with both on either flank at any point this season. It seems such an obvious thing to try. that means movement which appears to be frowned upon. re the other options but. obertan played a good few times for man utd on the left. Just done a post on the movement thing Didn't Obertan play wide left in a 4-3-3 when he was at Manure though? look at the way man utd play though, it's not a rigid formation like ours. get that player to join tiote and cabaye and we can go that way. i'd even be tempted to give ferguson a go there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Another thing with having Jonas on one side on Ben Arfa on the other is they could easily swap wings during a match. This is not possible with one of the other options playing. I actually find it amazing we haven't played with both on either flank at any point this season. It seems such an obvious thing to try. that means movement which appears to be frowned upon. re the other options but. obertan played a good few times for man utd on the left. Just done a post on the movement thing Didn't Obertan play wide left in a 4-3-3 when he was at Manure though? look at the way man utd play though, it's not a rigid formation like ours. get that player to join tiote and cabaye and we can go that way. i'd even be tempted to give ferguson a go there. Very true. People say that Man United are the only top club left that still plays 4-4-2. I don't really think they play a 4-4-2 in the slightest even when they're supposed to be lining up that way. They certainly don't play with two banks of 4 and two centre forwards anyway. I don't think we're ever going to go 4-3-3. Makes you wonder why the hell we ever looked at Gervinho. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorJ_01 Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 The closest they get to 4-4-2 is when Berba and Hernandez are both playing which is pretty rare. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Generally 4-4-2 is still a really good formation, if the team in practice could use it to pass around and look for space, it is still quite formidable. But as most have mention, its usually a mix of 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 in most top teams now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ujpest doza Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Shearmagic, Unfortunately with some people on here he can not do anything wrong. If he plays well - OMG he is the best player ever If he plays bad - Its all Pardew's fault, it was the tactics, it was the other 10 players, he's not fit, pardew has mismanaged him, he forgot to have his weatabix this morning, he did nothing wrong and its not his fault. Its getting to the point where as soon as someone says anything negative about him they get jumped on. And ain't that the truth. If he was as good as he is made out to be he wouldn't be at NUFC in the 1st place he'd be at Barcelona or AC Milan or Man Utd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest michaelfoster Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 could we not even try a 4-3-1-2 Krul Simpson Colo Saylor Santon Jonas Tiote Cabaye Ben Arfa Cisse Ba Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Aye, being better than Ryan Taylor automatically gets you a game at Barcelona like. Pathetic posts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugoinufc Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 realized against wolves have big a threat he is....he could really really good cutting in from the RW as we saw....he will score goals and assist many if given a good run for the rest of the season. He has to defend and we will have to cover for him often....but as i see it we have nothing to loose. We will not end lower than 7th anyway and after the weekend i dont really think we can get 4th place...so its time for him to get a run and get integrated and get used to the RW position....i think he is willing to play out wide. best things he has produced this season has come from out right imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Aye, being better than Ryan Taylor automatically gets you a game at Barcelona like. Pathetic posts. Yep, just a complete nonsense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Obviously he should start most of our games, but there are too many on here who talk like he's a world beater. He's not our best player on his best day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirge Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I still say he is a victim of our poor fullbacks, if we had a solid fullback base then Benny would be fine on either wing or he could be at his best behind a front two in a 4-3-3. But we just do not have good enough defensive fullbacks so Pardew cannot risk a player losing the ball as much as Benny does, and sadly we cannot risk giving him the time he needs to get used to the league. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lush Vlad Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 People need to have a look at the number of goals and assists we're getting from midfield and defence. It's laughable, we don't have a player in the top 30 assisters in the whole league. People arguing that Ben Arfa doesn't have a role to play in the system must be delighted with the system then? I'm not. It involves hoofing the ball to a striker completely unsuited to recieving them, central midfielders restricted from crossing the halfway line and who's only role is is workrate and distributing to our sole ball carrier, wingers who's primary role is seemingly to offer defensive support to the fullbacks. The only genuine flair we're getting from the side is when Jonas and Santon carry the ball forward in tandem or Ba does something brilliant individually. It's great that we've won so many points but this tactic will not get us top four and will not allow us to progress. You need more than that. There's nothing wrong with mixing in direct football and using the wings but I'd like to think we'd start utilising the middle of the pitch more. I'd like to think we could pass it out from defence (especially with two excellent ballplaying defenders as part of the back 4), play more triangles, more interplay, more midfielders getting forward to support the strikers, more overlapping runs, more general movement when we're in possession etc etc. There is plenty we could improve on. Look at the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal, both having poor seasons and looking stagnant but neither would resort to the one dimensional stuff we play far too often - they both dominate play. We don't play possession based football and we don't play counter-attacking on transitions. I'm honestly not quite sure what our style is apart from generic hoofing and getting it wide. And boom goes the dynamite. That is a worryingly accurate summary of how we play. Saturday was particularly bad, it really was fucking dire to watch. Krul, Willo, Simpson and R.Taylor are all at home playing limited, hoof ball. But the rest of our team are ball players, or at least comfortable in possession. Ba and Cisse looked confused and fucked off at times, it was one dimensional, rigid and the subs barely changed our style. Such a waste of some really top players. Results are important yes, but I can see them drying up if we continue with this clueless approach. We don't have the personnel to play a direct style, so why pesevere with it? Going off the HBA topic a bit, but thought this post was spot on and wanted to comment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugoinufc Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Obviously he should start most of our games, but there are too many on here who talk like he's a world beater. He's not our best player on his best day. probably not...but he should still get a chance on the rw ahead of raylor and obertan. on his day he could easily be our best player (attacking). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foluwashola Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Obviously he should start most of our games, but there are too many on here who talk like he's a world beater. He's not our best player on his best day. Aye, people do seem to be ignoring the fact that he can, at times, be a bit of a liability defensively (could have lost us the game against Wolves, losing possession in our half. Admittedly, he had chances to win it for us aswell). There's no doubting the positives outweigh the negatives with him and I'd love to see him get a decent run of games, but Pardew isn't a complete imbecile (semi-imbecile perhaps). Would worry that he'd struggle against the scum next week if he started like as he'd constantly be closed down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugoinufc Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 People need to have a look at the number of goals and assists we're getting from midfield and defence. It's laughable, we don't have a player in the top 30 assisters in the whole league. People arguing that Ben Arfa doesn't have a role to play in the system must be delighted with the system then? I'm not. It involves hoofing the ball to a striker completely unsuited to recieving them, central midfielders restricted from crossing the halfway line and who's only role is is workrate and distributing to our sole ball carrier, wingers who's primary role is seemingly to offer defensive support to the fullbacks. The only genuine flair we're getting from the side is when Jonas and Santon carry the ball forward in tandem or Ba does something brilliant individually. It's great that we've won so many points but this tactic will not get us top four and will not allow us to progress. You need more than that. There's nothing wrong with mixing in direct football and using the wings but I'd like to think we'd start utilising the middle of the pitch more. I'd like to think we could pass it out from defence (especially with two excellent ballplaying defenders as part of the back 4), play more triangles, more interplay, more midfielders getting forward to support the strikers, more overlapping runs, more general movement when we're in possession etc etc. There is plenty we could improve on. Look at the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal, both having poor seasons and looking stagnant but neither would resort to the one dimensional stuff we play far too often - they both dominate play. We don't play possession based football and we don't play counter-attacking on transitions. I'm honestly not quite sure what our style is apart from generic hoofing and getting it wide. And boom goes the dynamite. That is a worryingly accurate summary of how we play. Saturday was particularly bad, it really was f***ing dire to watch. Krul, Willo, Simpson and R.Taylor are all at home playing limited, hoof ball. But the rest of our team are ball players, or at least comfortable in possession. Ba and Cisse looked confused and f***ed off at times, it was one dimensional, rigid and the subs barely changed our style. Such a waste of some really top players. Results are important yes, but I can see them drying up if we continue with this clueless approach. We don't have the personnel to play a direct style, so why pesevere with it? Going off the HBA topic a bit, but thought this post was spot on and wanted to comment. agree Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 He only plays that way because he's under pressure to win the game in twenty minutes. In his one start ( ) on the right wing against Blackburn he was disciplined and sensible with the ball and completely ran the show. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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